Procylon's Call to Power Project

chrome-rome · Dec 23, 2010

I like the golden ages thing with the food. I was also thinking about how civ 4 GA boosted great people generation. I guess that would be a little much with the pace great people come anyway, but what about providing a percentage boost to culture? Just something to think about. It would probably be more feasable when the governments are introduced.

ikillu64 · Dec 23, 2010

Decimatus said:
I think the 480% was from some very early balancing. Would you prefer all of marathon raised from 300% to 400% with research staying at 480% or would you rather just see it evened out again? On standard it is 160% instead of 100%.

I rather see it all evened out again, but that's just me. Thanks for asking.

I might be able to make a nuke that big, though I can't guarantee that the animation will scale to the damage.

Wouldn't you just turn up the <NukeDamage> or maybe its more complicated

. I don't really care about the animations, since we already have gauss tanks that look like modern tanks.

Also, I am considering making it so that golden ages also give food to each tile, in a similar manner to the gold and production. Anyone object outright to this? I am dropping the % food modifiers from many/all of the food buildings, so this wouldn't be as huge as it could have been.

I think its a good idea, and makes sense.

FredMB · Dec 23, 2010

Hey Decimatus

Just completed a playthrough with the latest V8, Pangaea, King, large with only 4 Civs to allow for larger empires. This time I enabled unit stacking, 10 UPT, made combat and moving units around much more interesting. I also disabled unit maintenance to make sure the AI had as large an army as possible, more on that later.

Everything went smooth. Only had one Next Turn crash, tried again while zoomed in on an empty part of the map and it went through.

The AI still doesn't grow very large cities, still spamming trading posts all over.

I have a lot of feedback on that one so I'll try to keep my thoughts organized. Long post ahead.

I love the Civil Engineer. I love seeing all those cranes out there. A bit pricey though. Could you make it so that it builds any improvement in one turn? This way the bang for the buck would be excellent. By the time he becomes available the strategic advantage of fast building is pretty much gone as you have already connected all your resources. It would only ease the clean up operations, especially after conquest.

Also I'm not sure but it seems like the Civil Engineer dies when captured instead of turning to your side. Is this intentional?

About the Tech Tree. This is from several playthroughs. I find it odd that you can build catapults before discovering Iron Working. Any way around that? Also iron is so important in the early game, have you considered revealing it on the map with the discovery of mining? Several balance mods have already done this.

Also in the early game you've set it up so that the bottom of the tree is geared towards military and the top is geared towards infrastructure. The AI always takes the military route, on higher difficulties forcing you to do the same thing, lest you enjoy trebuchet vs artillery combat. I think adding a link between Construction and Metal Casting would help with this.

Lastly about the Tech Tree I find the way Chemistry and Dynamite are so close together pretty much renders cannons useless. Why bother with them when Artillery is only a couple more techs away? I'm afraid I can't offer a solution though, the Tree is pretty hard to change in that particular place.

I like the more expensive buildings and units in the industrial era. Stuff doesn't build in one turn anymore, more like 5 or 6. Now a word of caution from what I've seen with other Mods. When you make things harder for the player you usually end up making things impossible for the AI. I've seen this with several city defense Mods where it became impossible for the AI to take cities.

Unfortunately your latest changes had a similar effect on the AI here. In combat once I took care of the AI's standing army it couldn't buy or produce units fast enough to offer any kind of resistance. Sure decimating it's armies would take several turns but once that was done there was no turning back. All that was left to do was capture workers and steamroll cities.

The AI doesn't build large enough cities to keep up with unit and building costs. The more the game went on the worse it got. Even if the AI was technologically on par with me it just couldn't make or buy enough units. And this was with no unit maintenance too. The only way around this would be to manually change the handicaps to give the AI bigger production boosts. However this would make the early game very though, almost impossible, especially on Emperor and above.

So all in all I love the latest V8. If the AI wasn't as dumb as a sack of hammers it would be even better!

chrome-rome · Dec 23, 2010

I just downloaded the latest version from the sorceforge link and I have a problem; my worker units don't have any actions that I can click. Luckily, in the early game, the hotkeys for the improvements are pretty easy to remember, but I would hate for this to be a consistent problem. I'm not entirely sure that this is associated with your mod, as I am running several others, but seeing as the others are all minor, I figured I would check here first. If I am the only one with this problem, then disregard this message, as it means the problem is coming from somewhere else. Thanks

Gilgamesch · Dec 23, 2010

chrome-rome said:
I just downloaded the latest version from the sorceforge link and I have a problem; my worker units don't have any actions that I can click. Luckily, in the early game, the hotkeys for the improvements are pretty easy to remember, but I would hate for this to be a consistent problem. I'm not entirely sure that this is associated with your mod, as I am running several others, but seeing as the others are all minor, I figured I would check here first. If I am the only one with this problem, then disregard this message, as it means the problem is coming from somewhere else. Thanks

One of the mods you are playing with generate this error

I know some mods... but v8 is still running without problems

Decimatus · Dec 23, 2010

climberjames said:
the ai seems to be keeping pace, noticed that i am only now catching up to them tech wise - they were churning out wonders at high rate, wonders which the tech was many lvls from me still. but now that caught up, notice that they are not building as many any more (at least, i'm not getting as many popups of late)

still waiting to get in contact though - lots o ocean and still on triemes
the tech for the caravel is far away

perhaps an intermediary ship type is needed? like a 12th centuary european hulk or cog?

I could add another ship, though I don't really want to add one that can cross oceans before the renaissance era, which is what you are asking for I think.

I like the golden ages thing with the food. I was also thinking about how civ 4 GA boosted great people generation. I guess that would be a little much with the pace great people come anyway, but what about providing a percentage boost to culture? Just something to think about. It would probably be more feasable when the governments are introduced.

Golden ages do increase GP production, though it seems like it does it under the table since it doesn't tell you about it.

Wouldn't you just turn up the <NukeDamage> or maybe its more complicated

No I think it may be that easy, I was just saying, it won't look as pretty as a 100+ megaton nuke.

The AI still doesn't grow very large cities, still spamming trading posts all over.

Have you noticed random AI cities that are large, and have lots of farms around them? It seems like 30-40% of AI cities in my recent games actually had some farms around them.

I love the Civil Engineer. I love seeing all those cranes out there. A bit pricey though. Could you make it so that it builds any improvement in one turn? This way the bang for the buck would be excellent. By the time he becomes available the strategic advantage of fast building is pretty much gone as you have already connected all your resources. It would only ease the clean up operations, especially after conquest.

I suppose I might as well. I can increase it from 250 to 400 work rate. If I ever implement upgradeable improvements I will have to rebalance it anyway.

Also I'm not sure but it seems like the Civil Engineer dies when captured instead of turning to your side. Is this intentional?

I have it setup for Capture UNITCLASS_CIVIL_ENGINEER. If they are dying instead, I may have to look into it.

About the Tech Tree. This is from several playthroughs. I find it odd that you can build catapults before discovering Iron Working. Any way around that? Also iron is so important in the early game, have you considered revealing it on the map with the discovery of mining? Several balance mods have already done this.

It would be tough to put cats after ironworking, but if I revealed iron at mining, then cats would be in line with it. It may not be perfect, but it might feel better. I kind of like the idea of iron appearing with mining anyway.

Lastly about the Tech Tree I find the way Chemistry and Dynamite are so close together pretty much renders cannons useless. Why bother with them when Artillery is only a couple more techs away? I'm afraid I can't offer a solution though, the Tree is pretty hard to change in that particular place.

I think you are right.

I can move cannons to gunpowder and put a building or something on chemistry. Or I can find a way to attach sci theory to dynamite so that the AI has another series of techs to go through between cannons and arty.

I like the more expensive buildings and units in the industrial era. Stuff doesn't build in one turn anymore, more like 5 or 6. Now a word of caution from what I've seen with other Mods. When you make things harder for the player you usually end up making things impossible for the AI. I've seen this with several city defense Mods where it became impossible for the AI to take cities.

Unfortunately your latest changes had a similar effect on the AI here. In combat once I took care of the AI's standing army it couldn't buy or produce units fast enough to offer any kind of resistance. Sure decimating it's armies would take several turns but once that was done there was no turning back. All that was left to do was capture workers and steamroll cities.

The AI doesn't build large enough cities to keep up with unit and building costs. The more the game went on the worse it got. Even if the AI was technologically on par with me it just couldn't make or buy enough units. And this was with no unit maintenance too. The only way around this would be to manually change the handicaps to give the AI bigger production boosts. However this would make the early game very though, almost impossible, especially on Emperor and above.

How long did the AI stay technologically on par?

I doubt unit maintenance would have made a difference. Gold values are still way too high compared to costs.

Changing the handicaps is something I have been leaning towards more and more. I don't mind emperor and above becoming near impossible. That is why they are there.

I know a lot of people really dislike AI that have unfair advantages, but I prefer AI that stands a fighting chance to one who rolls over like a wet noodle. So, perhaps starting on King and above I will give the AI some growth, production, gold, and research generation bonuses. Especially growth. Start small and increase as needed. May not make it in for V9, not sure.

So all in all I love the latest V8. If the AI wasn't as dumb as a sack of hammers it would be even better!

Glad you like it. The AI will get better eventually. Either through jerry-rigging, or intervention by higher powers.

One of the mods you are playing with generate this error

Yeah I haven't heard of anyone else having that issue.

FredMB · Dec 23, 2010

Have you noticed random AI cities that are large, and have lots of farms around them? It seems like 30-40% of AI cities in my recent games actually had some farms around them.

Yes I did notice that. About 30-40% is right. But the largest city I saw was size 31, obviously a Capital with Tradition enabled. All other ones surrounded by farms were about size 20.

How long did the AI stay technologically on par?

The AI was always on par technologically. What happened is that as it researched new techs it upgraded it's obsolete units, yay about that. But building new units was now too expensive. On my second invasion the AI had a whole bunch of Riflemen and Cannons in the field. I had just researched Artillery and wanted to go in before the AI did the same thing. As the AI units died they never got replaced, building new ones with small cities was taking too long I guess. This is where the production boost would help the AI. However it would be nasty in the early game with the AI spamming Spearmen like crazy.

And I have a small request. Could you include an empty SQL file in your Mod for us folks to put some changes in there? I can't put any extra code in the remapper SQL you have without causing the game to crash. One of the things I want to try is a game with all specialist slots disabled. Much easier to do in SQL than manually. Oh and if you add the file, please make sure it's called last in OnModActivated.

Decimatus · Dec 23, 2010

FredMB said:
Yes I did notice that. About 30-40% is right. But the largest city I saw was size 31, obviously a Capital with Tradition enabled. All other ones surrounded by farms were about size 20.

I had an AI border city near me that was upwards of 60+ I think. But I was in the Nanotech era and my cities were sitting around 150.

BTW if you have 100+ unemployed specialists and suddenly turn off manual specialists it will most likely crash your game.

The AI was always on par technologically. What happened is that as it researched new techs it upgraded it's obsolete units, yay about that. But building new units was now too expensive. On my second invasion the AI had a whole bunch of Riflemen and Cannons in the field. I had just researched Artillery and wanted to go in before the AI did the same thing. As the AI units died they never got replaced, building new ones with small cities was taking too long I guess. This is where the production boost would help the AI. However it would be nasty in the early game with the AI spamming Spearmen like crazy.

I think if I start out with building cost reduction, growth, and gold increases, the AI might get a boost that doesn't quite kick in until medieval or later. Looking at the handicap schema's it seems like there is some decent room to play.

And I have a small request. Could you include an empty SQL file in your Mod for us folks to put some changes in there? I can't put any extra code in the remapper SQL you have without causing the game to crash. One of the things I want to try is a game with all specialist slots disabled. Much easier to do in SQL than manually. Oh and if you add the file, please make sure it's called last in OnModActivated.

Done.

I removed the FinalIDReordering.sql from the update list. It was a legacy item from the tech tree editor, and the mod runs fine without it. It will stay in the mod for awhile in case I need to use it again, but probably not.

Disabling, or even removing specialist slots isn't such a bad idea. I like them, their purpose, and their future, but given the AI problems with them, disabling them may simply be the best near term option.

I probably won't remove them in the next version, but I would be very interested to hear reports of your testing.

I am kind of in the middle of some heavy modifications of the base game, so I am not sure when I will be able to get a new test version up on source forge. My wife has the next 3 days pretty much booked, though hopefully I can get some quality mod time in at night.

I hope to upload an update by the 30th at the latest, possibly sooner.

FredMB · Dec 23, 2010

I removed the FinalIDReordering.sql from the update list. It was a legacy item from the tech tree editor, and the mod runs fine without it. It will stay in the mod for awhile in case I need to use it again, but probably not.

Are you sure about that? Whenever I do anything to that file it crashes the Tech Tree. Just now I tried disabling the remapper code (by adding -- in front of all lines) and it did crash the tree.

On another note, I was able to add my own code to the remapper without crashing the Mod. Anyone wanting to try a game without specialists should try the following:

Code:

UPDATE Buildings 
SET SpecialistCount = 0
WHERE SpecialistCount >= 1;

Decimatus · Dec 23, 2010

FredMB said:
Are you sure about that? Whenever I do anything to that file it crashes the Tech Tree. Just now I tried disabling the remapper code (by adding -- in front of all lines) and it did crash the tree.

Try removing the ID's from the eras and then remove the SQL. I had some crashes related to the multi-page tech mod that wasn't fixed until I got rid of those ID's.

Verenti · Dec 24, 2010

I didn't read the entire thread, but you have a Nano-Tech era AND a Diamond Era? The Diamond era is a direct refernce to the book the Diamond Age, which is thusly named, because the primary material is diamond (like bronze or iron ages). This is made possible through nanotechnology.

Long story short, The Diamond era is the Nanotech Era.

Decimatus · Dec 24, 2010

Verenti said:
I didn't read the entire thread, but you have a Nano-Tech era AND a Diamond Era? The Diamond era is a direct refernce to the book the Diamond Age, which is thusly named, because the primary material is diamond (like bronze or iron ages). This is made possible through nanotechnology.

Long story short, The Diamond era is the Nanotech Era.

And both use nanotech, your point? Besides, at this point we know diamond isn't that material of the future, it is graphene and nanotubes. We have even found materials harder than diamond.

Its just a name that references the end era of CtP. The Graphene Era doesn't sound as cool as the Diamond Era.

Decimatus · Dec 24, 2010

Yay fun.

<Building_LocalResourceOrs>
<Row>
<BuildingType>BUILDING_RANCH</BuildingType>
<ResourceType>RESOURCE_CATTLE</ResourceType>
</Row>
<Row>
<BuildingType>BUILDING_RANCH</BuildingType>
<ResourceType>RESOURCE_HORSES</ResourceType>
</Row>
</Building_LocalResourceOrs>
<Building_ResourceCultureChanges>
<Row>
<BuildingType>BUILDING_RANCH</BuildingType>
<ResourceType>RESOURCE_CATTLE</ResourceType>
<CultureChange>2</CultureChange>
</Row>
<Row>
<BuildingType>BUILDING_RANCH</BuildingType>
<ResourceType>RESOURCE_HORSES</ResourceType>
<CultureChange>2</CultureChange>
</Row>
</Building_ResourceCultureChanges>
<Building_ResourceYieldChanges>
<Row>
<BuildingType>BUILDING_RANCH</BuildingType>
<ResourceType>RESOURCE_CATTLE</ResourceType>
<YieldType>YIELD_FOOD</YieldType>
<Yield>10</Yield>
</Row>
<Row>
<BuildingType>BUILDING_RANCH</BuildingType>
<ResourceType>RESOURCE_HORSES</ResourceType>
<YieldType>YIELD_PRODUCTION</YieldType>
<Yield>10</Yield>
</Row>
</Building_ResourceYieldChanges>

chrome-rome · Dec 24, 2010

Good lord! The ranch is going to bring a huge boost for the cities that build them. I just hope the ai realizes this.

EDIT: After looking back through the thread a bit, I saw that you are changing rivers to +5/5/5. Could you make this a tiered system that comes around the time of the other improvements to the improvements? I have a feeling that starting with 7 hexes with +5/5/5 would give a civ a huuge advantage over someone with zero river hexes.

ikillu64 · Dec 24, 2010

Decimatus said:
Its just a name that references the end era of CtP. The Graphene Era doesn't sound as cool as the Diamond Era.

How about the Wurtzite Boron Nitride Era?

BTW I am starting to mess around with Nexus editor. I've made skins for guns on other games, so I might be able to make some units for you. For the nanotech era, I was thinking I would make the leap infantry look like they have nanosuits from Crysis.

simonjphillips · Dec 24, 2010

This mod crashes randomly for me. No set pattern for it. Other than that it is amazing and I find that I can no longer bring myself to play the original version.

Yanikin_Tinkard · Dec 24, 2010

Decimatus said:
What is the legendary more units mod?

IT adjust time speed. I think it works well with your mod as a new time speed if people want supper long games. I should have said legend speed with faster production. Sorry.

Spoiler :

I got that from CCMAT. It gives me errors because I didn't add in the txt for those speeds. But it is just a visual thing when you first load. I just added it and these also found in the gamespeeds table:

Legend speed

Spoiler :

Marathon with faster production

Spoiler :

Epic with faster production

Spoiler :

And in game speed_turns table for legend:

Spoiler :

I will admit it is weird. Everything is slow; but it is fun. Turn 688 at 0060 bc. We are all still in the medieval era. I will record the game graphs when I'm done. I have info addict so you can see the whole game. If there is a spike were I take of science from AI you will see when.

On the AI standing army:
Yes I found that if I fortify my units in a good position just outside there territory is best for DOW. I wait, they come. I range them and kill them. Once they are gone I go one city at a time. Trebucha are powerful. But because I killed there standing army they are easy. No they do still produce units a little though. It wasn't till I took 4 out of 5 cities that they stopped having units.

Nothing else to report. I guess I will have to re learn game next version.

Decimatus · Dec 24, 2010

chrome-rome said:
Good lord! The ranch is going to bring a huge boost for the cities that build them. I just hope the ai realizes this.

EDIT: After looking back through the thread a bit, I saw that you are changing rivers to +5/5/5. Could you make this a tiered system that comes around the time of the other improvements to the improvements? I have a feeling that starting with 7 hexes with +5/5/5 would give a civ a huuge advantage over someone with zero river hexes.

Base tile yields are now 5-15, so having rivers give +5 is the same relatively as when they gave +1.

In terms of relating to the old version, think of every +5 as +1. Culture and science won't quite go by this, but they are different systems. I might also bring them to the +5 system down the road.

How about the Wurtzite Boron Nitride Era?

Sure, lets call it the w-BN Era for short.

BTW I am starting to mess around with Nexus editor. I've made skins for guns on other games, so I might be able to make some units for you. For the nanotech era, I was thinking I would make the leap infantry look like they have nanosuits from Crysis.

That would be most excellent.

This mod crashes randomly for me. No set pattern for it. Other than that it is amazing and I find that I can no longer bring myself to play the original version.

Some places where you might find more crashes:

If you move a unit more than 10 spaces in a single command, there is a ever higher chance of a crash. This becomes more evident with maglev and levitation motor rail upgrades.

IT adjust time speed. I think it works well with your mod as a new time speed if people want supper long games. I should have said legend speed with faster production. Sorry.

I see.

I will admit it is weird. Everything is slow; but it is fun. Turn 688 at 0060 bc. We are all still in the medieval era. I will record the game graphs when I'm done. I have info addict so you can see the whole game. If there is a spike were I take of science from AI you will see when.

That actually isn't a bad idea. I haven't really used info addict myself, but I have seen some screens of the graphs. In general I didn't want to run another mod that might cause issues that would be harder to track down to a source.

For balance testing though, the graphs really could be an awesome tool. Especially if they break it down into gold, production, growth, etc.

Yes I found that if I fortify my units in a good position just outside there territory is best for DOW. I wait, they come. I range them and kill them. Once they are gone I go one city at a time. Trebucha are powerful. But because I killed there standing army they are easy. No they do still produce units a little though. It wasn't till I took 4 out of 5 cities that they stopped having units.

Do you know how much gold the AI had stashed away before and after the war? It doesn't seem like they rushbuy enough units. I gave russia 100k gold once and they never touched a penny of it.

Yanikin_Tinkard · Dec 24, 2010

Decimatus said:
Base tile yields are now 5-15, so having rivers give +5 is the same relatively as when they gave +1.

In terms of relating to the old version, think of every +5 as +1. Culture and science won't quite go by this, but they are different systems. I might also bring them to the +5 system down the road.

Sure, lets call it the w-BN Era for short.

Dude, I'm in. WBN it is.. sounds like a radio station though...Wait, the future era is a radio station? Wow, to think.....

Decimatus said:
That would be most excellent.

Some places where you might find more crashes:

If you move a unit more than 10 spaces in a single command, there is a ever higher chance of a crash. This becomes more evident with maglev and levitation motor rail upgrades.

I see.

That actually isn't a bad idea. I haven't really used info addict myself, but I have seen some screens of the graphs. In general I didn't want to run another mod that might cause issues that would be harder to track down to a source.

For balance testing though, the graphs really could be an awesome tool. Especially if they break it down into gold, production, growth, etc.

I will show you the whole thing. IT doesn't affect your game. It is almost cheating though. It shows you current stats for in game thing. Basicly you see all the real data for those lists that show up. You can see if your ahead on anything at any time. Yeah it is cheating in a sence.

It will help for debuging though. Just look for info adicts on mod hub.

Decimatus said:
Do you know how much gold the AI had stashed away before and after the war? It doesn't seem like they rushbuy enough units. I gave russia 100k gold once and they never touched a penny of it.

I will show you stas at end of game. There has been so much going on thread, but I only have so much time. I need to get more programing done. But I hope this helps going forward.

Y

Decimatus · Dec 24, 2010

More stats is good. I will look into using info addicts for my test game of the new system before I put upload the first test version. Got lots of buildings to complete though.

Procylon's Call to Power Project

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