Honestly a lot of the problems with this mod would be solved if you simply moved the decimal point down 1. While starting with a tile that yields 10/10/10, you effectively just inflated all values without really providing much in return other than c++ math related slowdowns. I love a lot of this mod, but this is just vexing.
Procylon's Call to Power Project
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danielshannon
Warlord
I have to agree with MindXX on this. One unit per tile is the best thing about civ 5 (besides the mods... )
chrome-rome
King
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
- Messages
- 620
Perhaps you could just apply a flat bonus to coastal cities, by way of buildings, instead of increasing yields. For example, what if you had the lighthouse grant 20 food, the harbor grant a flat 60 gold (arbitrary; assuming populations 10-15), and the seaport give 50 production and 50 gold (assuming population of 25+). This puts coastal cities at 20F/50P/110G advantage to landlocked ones.
On a side note, I don't think seaports should be exclusive to only those cities with bonus sea resources, because if a city overlaps with another, only one city gets the resource. It also makes placement easier if you don't have to worry about getting a resource for that city.
I've deliberately left out any substantial bonuses to food. Currently, coast are so strong because they grant huge surpluses of food, which also contribute to their massive yield totals; in v8 I placed a city on a single tile island with several sea resources in the late medieval era - by the mid renaissance the city had more pop than my capitol.
I feel as though water tiles should be very polarized in what they do. They are good for food and trade (represented as gold). They are not good at prodution.
Here are some proposed yields for coast and oceans:
Spoiler :
PS: After doing this I sort of want to look at the yields for all the improvements and see if they can be balanced more (too much time on my hands
). Would you be interested in seeing something like that?
seamus75
Warlord
I like Chrome-rome's ideas of adding the bonuses to coastal city-specific buildings versus the tiles themselves; but a problem arises when a coastal city is blockaded. A blockaded city would still have the benefit of the buildings making blockade pointless.
Maybe a 'split the baby' hybrid would work better. Slight increase in both tile output AND coastal city-specific buildings. That way the risk of plugging a ship into an enemy's harbor is still worthwhile, and the coastal city as a historically accurate civilization hub is preserved.
On another subject, is there an ETA for further fleshing out of the social policies? I love where you're going but can't bring myself to play v9 anymore because the policies seem pointless (in their present state). With the subcategories granting nothing it feels like I'm wasting my time with culture.
Maybe a 'split the baby' hybrid would work better. Slight increase in both tile output AND coastal city-specific buildings. That way the risk of plugging a ship into an enemy's harbor is still worthwhile, and the coastal city as a historically accurate civilization hub is preserved.
On another subject, is there an ETA for further fleshing out of the social policies? I love where you're going but can't bring myself to play v9 anymore because the policies seem pointless (in their present state). With the subcategories granting nothing it feels like I'm wasting my time with culture.
Hi. I'm trying Version 9 of this mod and came up with something that looks like an issue. I'm playing A marathon game and have 5 cities by the year 1800 BC and have only studies pottery. This is due to the fact that my research is still stucked in 1 (one). Any advise?
If the AI doesn't stack on purpose, I can see them being in an extreme disadvantage to the player that does.
I am also not sure about the fire support role. Seems too easy to abuse for the player.
I wouldn't move to stacking unless we had a decent system in place to handle it. I hate stacks of doom, and implementing even limited stacks without methods in place to handle it, especially without AI compliance, would be mediocre at best.
I would love to see a system that allows stacks of 9 to attack as a group, with artillery in the back, melee up front, as it was in Call to Power. However, both implementing this system, and teaching the AI how to use it, would be quite a task.
Most likely this will not even be possible until months after the DLL is released. Even then, a programmer would have to be found that would want to spend the time implementing it.
What problems would those be?
I haven't seen any slowdowns related to the yield increase. The majority of processor time is graphical and AI related anyway. I don't see this doing much of anything to performance.
The value added is a better feel of empire. CtP's base 5 system always felt grander than Civ's 1 here, 2 there system.
Possibly, but it wouldn't scale with population growth. I think removing the food from lighthouse would be a good move, and removing production from the harbor. And dropping food from 10 to 5 on the seaport. I also removed docks completely, so that is another 5 to food. So that would make it +5 gold to lighthouses, +5/5 food/gold to harbors, and +5/5/5 food/gold/production for seaports.
So your average work boat would have 15 gold, 10 food, and 5 more production than a farm(A non-river farm mind you). By industrial. How does that sound?
I kind of like it for the fact that it makes seaports a little more exclusive. Not every ocean side city has a seaport. Only those that have economically viable reasons to build one.
Of course, I would prefer this be tied to something else like population size, or maybe even land resources as well, but for now it works.
Lets see how the latest tweaks work for the ocean cities. They should still be more important than land locked cities(which is my goal), while not being quite as powerful as they were.
All the improvements are currently balanced at +10/20/30 throughout the ages. They need more balancing?
I like the idea of more coastal buildings. If/when I add them, it will likely be more along the lines of per pop and flat bonuses.
Not sure. I had plans that might have delayed it's release, but given this blizzard, I may be staying at home instead.
I can't give a solid estimate, but 2-3 days, or 7-9 days, depending on the weather?
It looks like going .5 science per pop isn't possible. I am going to upload a fix to sourceforge in a few minutes that should bring this back to 1 per pop.
New V9 build:
17 Fixed Science per pop. It didn't register a .5 value, so 1 per pop is the minimum.
18 Lowered upgrade costs substantially.
19 Somewhat lowered unit maintenance.
20 Modified lighthouse, harbor, and seaports. Coastal cities should be slightly less powerful.
21 Lowered cost of civil engineer.
22 Fixed some inaccurate help text strings.
23 Modified the production cost of certain renaissance units to smooth out the cost curve between units.
17 Fixed Science per pop. It didn't register a .5 value, so 1 per pop is the minimum.
18 Lowered upgrade costs substantially.
19 Somewhat lowered unit maintenance.
20 Modified lighthouse, harbor, and seaports. Coastal cities should be slightly less powerful.
21 Lowered cost of civil engineer.
22 Fixed some inaccurate help text strings.
23 Modified the production cost of certain renaissance units to smooth out the cost curve between units.
seamus75
Warlord
I can't give a solid estimate, but 2-3 days, or 7-9 days, depending on the weather?
Love it
FredMB
Chieftain
Like I said before, stacking or no, the numerical advantage will always be the key. Believe me stacks of 10 will only get you so far when the AI fills every hex with a unit. Sure you might get stacks going to blitz through the front to get to a key city but in the end the Civ with the most units and the highest production capacity always wins. Not only that but stacking leaves you very vulnerable to counterattack since the AI can roam freely between your stacks. So sure you'll win the initial engagement but you'll have to break your stacks to form a front eventually. Stacking gives you an offensive advantage mostly, sure it makes it easier to take a city, but unless you have backup coming you'll just watch your stacks melt as the AI throws all his units at you in the counterattack.
In fact I see stacking as an adequate counterbalance to the production boost the AI gets on Emperor and above. It also gives the AI an advantage in moving units. They don't get bottlenecked so much anymore. It also makes it easier for them to attack as multiple units can attack a stack and finish their turn in the same tile. I've seen the AI take out whole stacks in one turn, especially when they are ahead technologically and have access to fast units like cavalry and tanks.
But that's just me. In the end I think this really is a personal preference. It doesn't need to be included in the mod as those of who want it can just write it in.
You mean if you are at war, their unit can pass through your stack to the other side?
What I see happening is this:
Player attacks the AI with 3 stacks of units, lets say 4 infantry and 5 artillery in each. AI throws everything it has in your direction. But due to limited movement, most of it's units stop short of being able to attack. 15 artillery ground the AI units into dust.
Or worse:
Player defends the AI's attack. Instead of having 3 artillery strategically positioned on hilltops and behind rivers, you have 27. As the AI units trickle in, they are at an even worse disadvantage than before.
That is assuming of course that I put more money into military. Currently a player can get by with 10 units defending against 100 AI units. If they attack and start crowding into my territory, I can see problems unless I actually put the money into building defensive stacks.
I suppose pretty much all my argument against it is ranged attack related. Currently with 3 archers/crossbows/etc, I can easily destroy AI units in large numbers.
The AI does tend to use fast units with some surprising efficiency sometimes, but I think walls of artillery would lower the advantage even more.
What I would need the AI to do, is to gather it's units in stacks, and then march on the enemy. I think this is the only way to keep the trickle effect from destroying them. Because as you said, the cover their land with the units. So when they move on the enemy, the units on the other side of the empire arrive last, after most of the front lines have already been destroyed.
chrome-rome
King
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
- Messages
- 620
Maybe balanced wasn't the right word. I guess there are just some things that irk me. For example, it is almost always better to put a mine on a forested hill than it is to make a lumbermill. Also, wheat farms improve food by 10, while all other improvements on bonuses improve by 15. Just little things like that.
BTW, there are some typos in the improvements.xml that are affecting the bonuses. Levitation (LEVIATION) Motors is misspelled on the custom house and quarry entries, as is Genetic Synthesis (SYNHTHESIS) for the plantation entry.
The wheat does sound like an oversight. I will have to look at the lumbermill and mine to see what kind of differences they have that would cause them to be out of balance. Though, generally I think a mine should be preferable, as the minerals have more uses than wood.
Thanks, I will take a look at them.
Chrome, I fixed the items you mentioned.
The lumbermill/mines on forested hills though... I will drop forest down to 5 food, and bring it up to 10 production. This should help a little, but the general thought will be to chop it down for more production when it is on a hill.
Also, I think I forgot to mention that you can build lumbermills on jungle now.
The lumbermill/mines on forested hills though... I will drop forest down to 5 food, and bring it up to 10 production. This should help a little, but the general thought will be to chop it down for more production when it is on a hill.
Also, I think I forgot to mention that you can build lumbermills on jungle now.
Odd, but I experienced the same...
In vanilla, the AI does everything it can to abuse it though. I know this for a fact.
Something odd I've noticed is that the AI had absurdly negative GPT in my last game with the mod... I'll run another game tomorrow and see what's changed.
Although, on a point of note, the AI seemed rather gracious about giving away cities via gold transactions. I purchased several cities for GPT values, and it didn't exactly seem equitable.
Their huge negative gold values probably did them in. I think unit maintenance is part of this, so I lowered it a bit in the recent V9, and increased the strength of some of the gold buildings.
May not be enough, but I will keep tweaking it.
Fabiano1979
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2010
- Messages
- 75
I really liked this MOD, but Im having a hard time with how fast the production are when compared with the tech development.
Im playing V9 and my cities can complete a setler in 3 turns, warriors 1 turn..but I dont have any techs and theres nothing else to construct on the city.
The problem just get worse and worse, I think theres some tweaking to be done having this on mind.
Also, the social policies..they need classic era now and theres no escape but choosing tradition. I think that is just wrong.
But theres a lot of potential on this MOD. Congratz for the hard work.
Sry the bad english.
Im playing V9 and my cities can complete a setler in 3 turns, warriors 1 turn..but I dont have any techs and theres nothing else to construct on the city.
The problem just get worse and worse, I think theres some tweaking to be done having this on mind.
Also, the social policies..they need classic era now and theres no escape but choosing tradition. I think that is just wrong.
But theres a lot of potential on this MOD. Congratz for the hard work.
Sry the bad english.
I just implemented a couple big changes so there is certainly plenty of tweaking to be had. V9 is currently a test version. The live version is V8, on the modhub.
It isn't tradition, it is Monarchy. And I am in the process of implementing the remaining sub policies for all the governments.
And it won't be perfect for awhile, since you can only take 1 government at a time which limits you to 6 policies at any given time and rules out a culture victory. Once I get the social policy pages mod from FiresForever, you will be able to research more than 1 branch of policies at a time. Religions, ideologies, etc.
I implemented the governments early because I didn't want to have to balance the game a second time down the road. So I will smooth out the balance here and it shouldn't change too drastically for awhile.
Thanks.
Have patience, you have entered a construction zone.
ikillu64
Chieftain
Actually, if you tell the AI, "What do you want for this" then they can put more than 4 digits in the gold quantity box. Its great for buying cities.
V9 updated! Sub-policies completed, and ahead of schedule!
I think the sub-policies are going to give you guys lots of pause for thought when choosing governments. And of course lots of tweaking to the policies will probably happen in the future. Let me know what you think so I can adjust appropriately.
Tomorrow and the day after I will begin adding Pedia entries and flavors for the sub-policies.
I think the sub-policies are going to give you guys lots of pause for thought when choosing governments.
And of course lots of tweaking to the policies will probably happen in the future. Let me know what you think so I can adjust appropriately. Tomorrow and the day after I will begin adding Pedia entries and flavors for the sub-policies.
chrome-rome
King
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
- Messages
- 620
Sounds good. I haven't tried the latest sourceforge version but when I do I will share my experiences. I have a question about the multi-page tech tree: when the optional techs are added, how will the ai know that they are optional? Is this some coding that will require the DLL?
