PROD Shadow - Sirian's TDG "Alternate Timelines"

[Griselda]

IT- 650 AD - Well, Sirian mentioned a bunch of IT changes, and I'm afraid I disagree here (but his game will probably end up in better

shape, hehe). I decide to let the workers around the core finish up on their current tiles before halting them and moving them.

Maximizing shields is important, but IMO not so urgent that we should waste worker turns. It will be interesting to see what happens,

though. I did forget to have Nottingham give up that forest (for several turns even), which was a bit of .

BT- Joan asks for peace for peace, and I can only say yes, no, or goodbye. I'm assuming all but no will lead to war, which I'm not

interested in, even if Joan is weaker than we are. I decide that I'm not even willing to have a war for the few turns until she'll talk. So, I

cave and take it. I don't really lose anything but the chance to extort more gold from her.

(1) 660 AD
- Clear jungle Newcastle, Nineveh. Oxford irrigators finish, and move to the worker on the jungle to make a stack. Road by Leeds, and

on iron. Start irrigation by Richmond; might as well have some food ready when the aqueduct comes in (still a while though).
- Send knight towards Brighton.
- Avast ye scurvy dogs! We need to row west! Row! Row!
- Sell TM to Joan for all of her gold (3).

BT-
- Printing Press discovered, go for democracy.
- Disease in Liverpool! :rant:
- Oops! Reading riots. Create a tax collector.
- Russians start Leo's.

(2) 670 AD
- Mine hill S of London, and continue irrigation at Warwick.
- Science to 70%; +16 per turn.

BT-
- Disease at Liverpool.
- Richmond completes courthouse and starts aqueduct. I realize I should have put a road through the forest before I started the

irrigation. I'll do that next.
- Cambridge completes worker and starts granary.

(3) 680 AD
- Mine mountain at Coventry (this turns out to be , because they'll need food, but more on that later).
- Three workers to York mountain.
- Russia, Babs, and China have music theory. China must have discovered it fist, because they also have 204 gold. China will sell for

328, which seems a bit high, especially considering I can't get anything from the other AI's that I sell to. Maybe I'll wait for the gems to

expire.

(4) 690 AD
- Wine deal with France expires. I try to make a good trade here, but, after playing through to 750, I think I gave up too much cash.

First, I traded the Babs 341 gold for music theory. I figured it made more sense to trade to Hammer because I didn't want Mao to get

any more gold than he already had. Then, I traded Joan music theory, 34 gold, and dyes for her wines. I didn't realize music theory

would could for so little (well, I did buy @4th and sell @5th) in this trade, or I probably wouldn't have done it. Finally, I renegotiated

peace with Babylon for 60 gold. I could have combined that with the tech trade, but I didn't think to.
- Mao is now broke. I wonder where he spent his money?
- Send Brighton pike to stand on workers by China's swordsman.
- Some York workers to Norwich mountain.
- I still want my gold back. I look up ROP prices with Babylon, but he will only pay 33 gold. No thanks.

BT-
- Oxford completes marketplace, and starts harbor.
- Norwich completes University, and starts bank.
- Chinese swordsman moves right by Brighton's guarded workers, but stays in their territory. Is it aggression, or are they just guarding

themselves from my units?

(5) 700 AD
- Leo's, Sun Tzu's, and democracy in 1. I think science comes before shields, but I guess we'll see!

BT-
- Democracy learned. I start economics, and do NOT revolt.
- London completes Sun Tzu's and starts university.
- Nottingham completes Leo's, and starts cathedral.
- Brighton completes library and starts university.
- Reading completes courthouse and starts cathedral.
- The cascade begins! Russians start Bach's. The French start Sistine and Bach's. The Germans start Sistine. The Babs start

Hanging gardens and Bach's. Chinese start hanging gardens and Bach's, completing hanging gardens.

(6) 710 AD
- Switch Reading tax collector to entertainer.
- I say I want a revolution. You know it's gonna be all right. We should have things back under control in 5 turns.
- Land ho! Galley sees land, but no signs of civilization.
- MM everything to emphasize food and gold. This will net me +19 gpt. Unfortunately, Coventry has major food shortage problems,

and there's not much I can do about it.

BT-
- WLTTD ends in Coventry. They'll love me a lot less before this revolution is over.
- I get messages about Babs and French starting wonders that are identical to last turn's. Did they change this city?
- German worker moves into our borders.

(7) 720 AD
- Galley explores deserted landmass.

(8) 730 AD
- Nineveh workers go to irrigate at Coventry. Unfortunately, it's too little, too late.

BT-
- China wants TM for TM. I accept.

(9) 740 AD
- Galley sees unpopped goody hut. This island must be deserted. I wonder if I can get a settler over in time? Galley heads west

and sees the edge of the Americans' border.

(10) 750 AD
- Contact! I see St. Louis. By now, I can only trade them currency. I could trade Lincoln 197 + currency or 202 gold without currency

for their world map. They must be really close to currency, but I'm not going to just give it away, so I trade the 202 gold. WM reveals

that they know about the deserted island but haven't settled it yet. I also notice that Rome doesn't seem to have grown very big.

-Griselda
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/prod-shadow-griselda-750ad.zip

 

[hotrod0823]

650 AD (0): Worker is building roads through the jungle my Ninveh, stop road building to clear jungle first. Change Dover from Harbor to marketplace. Cancel worker action at Oxford as well, roads were ordered in the jungle. Think clearing should come first. Rush courthouse at Richmond for 60 gold. Rush Courthouse in Reading for 88 gold. Reading will riot after it grows, hire entertainer now. Cancel ROP with Germany.

INBTW: France wants to extend our peace, who am I to refuse.

660 AD (1): York completes University starts musketman, will begin building military again. Reading courthouse is complete start marketplace. Richmond courthouse is finished start aqueduct. Begin jungle clearing at Ninevah and Oxford and start roads to new iron site. Printing press next turn can't reduce the rate.

670 AD (2): Learn Printing Press, start on Chemistry. Russians start Leo's they have invention now. Will look to trade around. Increase science to 60%, chemistry in 4 with +72 gold. Start some much needed mines at Warwick. Knight is now on China boarder. Reconsider musket at York change to Bank.

680 AD (3): Cambridge completes worker and starts library. More jungle clearing at York. No trades for the invention, forgot to check . Trade Printing Press to China for Music Theory, Maps, 4 gpt, and 200 gold. Everyone else is broke. The cascade to Bachs will come soon. Many are building the Sun and Leo's, some one should be close on the Hanging gardens as well, no one can build Copernicus, maybe a possibilty in Norwich if the cascade is killed soon.

690 AD (4): Lost the wines again! Iron is now online near China. Trade France Music Theory, Maps, dyes and 30 gold for wines. Sell our maps around for a mear 15 gold total.

700 AD (5): Oxford completes marketplace and starts Magellen's, Norwich completes university and starts Bank. Cant reduce science spending, still get chemisty in 1 with +67 gold. Leo and sun next turn.

710 AD (6): Learn chemistry start Physics, contemplate Democracy but decide to let the AI do that research, same for economics. Physics is required so went for that. London finishes SunTzu, start Bank. Nottingham finishes Leos and starts Cathedral. Brighton completes Library and starts cathedral. Russia start Bach's, French go to Sistines and Bach's, Germans sistine, Babs HG and Bachs, China HG and Bachs, China completes HG. Physics in 4 with +71 gold. Hurry Caravel for 40 gold. Upgrade all the Pikes (19) for 570 gold.

720 AD (7): Cascade continues. Caravel completes start Temple. Upgrade a couple spears and a horseman.

730 AD (8): Some ship movement, still out looking for America.

740 AD (9): America discovered, physics in 1 turn. More mines etc. Trade WM, for Wm. New embassy for 47 gold. Couple small almost unsettled island to the SE.

750 AD (10): Learn physics start Theory of Gravity. Hastings builds bank, start University. Increase science to 70%, ToG in 4 with +20 gold.

Cancel ROP with Russia, she is broke and is behind many techs.
Cancel 3 gpt for gems deal with France.
Germany forget about any deals.
Babs no deals
America, trade monotheism and dyes for spice, silk and WM.
Sell china my new map for 80 of his 160 gold.

All are way behind in tech, no contact sales and we now have 2 new lux.


Shadow 750 AD

 

[Black Cursor]

Another Sirianism(tm) applies here -- sometimes it pays to be lucky, other times... you's plays the hand you's been dealt.

650AD 0) Looking over the land, I make some minor adjustments -- I would subsequently "adjust" things further <g>. Change Canterbury, Liverpool, Newcastle, and Norwich to Bank, Birmingham to Temple, and Dover to Worker. Rush Nineveh's Court for 140g. On the diplomatic front no trades made but I note that a number of active deals will come up for renegotiation this round.

-- France renegotiates Peace. With France's empty treasury, I agree at parity value. Joanie remains (Gracious). York finishes University, starts Musket. Nineveh finishes Court, starts Granary. Dover finishes Worker, starts Market. Bede agrees that England is the wealthiest (by far) followed by China, Babylon, France, Germany, America, and Russia.

660AD 1) With our galley's captain confined to quarters, she reverses course and heads west on the open ocean. MM Birmingham and Reading. Luxuries to 10% with research due in 1. Road hills/iron at Brighton, clear jungle at Dover, road desert at Leeds, clear jungle at Newcastle, and road jungle at Nineveh.

-- Printing Press researched. Science to 70% with Democracy due in 4. Disease strikes Liverpool (bad card number one). Russians start Leonardo's Workshop -- they won't get it (neither by hook, nor by crook).

670AD 2) "Sailing... sailing..." MM Norwich, Reading (hire Entertainer), Richmond, and Warwick. Road desert at Brighton, mine hills at London, clear jungle at Oxford, mine hills at Richmond, and road grass at York.

-- Liverpool disease encore. Cambridge finishes Worker, starts Worker. Norwich finishes Bank, MM and starts University. Richmond finishes Court, MM and starts 'Duct.

680AD 3) "Oh what shall we do with a drunken sailor? ..." MM Canterbury. Here's where I readjust things -- Change Coventry and York to Bank (after looking at the commerce values of our cities -- better to put the banks at the most productive cities (and stop drinking those fermentations)), Liverpool to Cathedral, and Newcastle to University. Irrigate grass at Warwick, and clear jungle at York.

-- Cathy wants Astronomy for Music Theory, we decline. Reading finishes Court, starts Settler destined for our new Caravel and the "unknown" eastern ocean. One of the above-mentioned deals comes up right now -- "We lost our supply of Wines!"

690AD 4) "Sixteen men on a dead-man's chest..." MM Birmingham, Oxford, Reading, and Richmond. Rush Birmingham's Temple for 176g to get those whales. Irrigate grass at Cambridge, and clear jungle at Nineveh. "... yo-ho-ho and a bottle of... (wine)" From France-Get Wines, Maps, 9g for Gunpowder. Joanie will have to work for Democracy, researching Printing Press and Banking solo.

-- Birmingham finishes Temple, MM and starts Worker. Oxford finishes Market, starts Harbor.

700AD 5) MM Liverpool and York. Science to 60% with research due in 1. Irrigate grass at Canterbury, mine hills at London, road jungle at Nineveh, mine/road grass and irrigate/road flood at Reading, and road grass at Warwick. Nothing of worth to trade around at mid-turn -- no one else gets Gunpowder unless absolutely necessary (i.e. when luxuries are on the table).

-- Democracy researched, Chemistry due in 4. Sun Tzu's Art of War and Leonardo's Workshop complete! London starts Copernicus' Observatory and Nottingham starts The Sistine Chapel. The cascade is brutal -- Russians, French, Babylonians, and Chinese start Bach's Cathedral; French and Germans start The Sistine Chapel; and Babylonians and Chinese start The Hanging Gardens. The Hanging Gardens finish in Chinese Tsingtao. Brighton finishes Library, starts Cathedral.

710AD 6) Mine hills at Brighton, Mine desert/saltpeter at Leeds, and road hills at Richmond. Revolt and draw bad card number two -- a full 8 turns of Anarchy Science to 0% and go into high-food, high-tax mode -- MM Canterbury, Exeter, Hastings, Leeds, Liverpool, London, Newcastle, Reading, and Warwick. Hire Tax-critters at Dover, Norwich, Nottingham, and Richmond; hire Science-dude at York.

-- Mao wants to swap Territory maps, we decline. More cascade action -- Babylonians and French (re)start Bach's Cathedral; French (re)start The Sistine Chapel.

720AD 7) "Land-Ho!" Hire Tax-thug at Reading. The first round of troop upgrades as follows -- Newcastle Horse to Knight(40g), Norwich Spear to Musket(40g), Warwick Spear to Musket(40g), Liverpool Spear to Musket(40g), and Coventry Pike to Musket(30g); all Veterans.

-- Bad card number three -- disease strikes Nineveh

730AD 8) Hire Tax-shill at York. Road grass at Canterubry, and irrigate grass at Warwick. Renegotiate ROP with Germany -- get ROP, Worker, 5gm Maps for ROP.

-- Disease strike Nineveh (but then you already knew this).

740AD 9) Mine hills at London, and road flood at Reading. Second round of troop upgrades -- Newcastle Pike to Musket(30g), Brighton Pike to Musket(30g), Nineveh (Regular, not Veteran) Spear to Musket(40g). Sell redundant Barracks at London, York, Nottingham, and Hastings.

750AD 10) Our galley finds an unnoticed hut and (finally) sees the American borders, but no contact <sigh>. Road grass at Cambridge, irrigate flood at Reading, and irrigate glood at Richmond. Final round of troop upgrades -- Exeter Pike to Musket(30g), Dover Pike to Musket(30g), Oxford Pike to Musket(30g), and Reading Archer to Longbow(20g). MM Liverpool and Ninveh, hire Entertainer at Reading, and Tax-soliciteurs at Birmingham, Cambridge, and Exeter. From China -- get ROP, 1gpt, Maps for ROP; and 12gpt, 20g for Saltpeter. I figured it was only a matter of time before Mao connected that mountain source of his.

Be seeing you...

---> TBC (Time for Bad Carma? (sic -- very))

TBC's Shadow - 750AD

 

[Zot]

0)650AD - I do a little bit of MM, but most everything is left the way it is. I know Sirian said he was going to change a bunch, but I don't have a big problem with what is already happening.

BT: Joan renegotiates peace so that she does not have to pay us anything per turn. We graciously have to accept. York completes a university and starts a bank.

1)660AD - Misc Movement. I move the galley east to explore the open ocean. Our knights heads toward Cambridge. I know that Sirian did not like me spending so much money last turn, but I decide to spend a little bit(128 gold) to rush Nineveh's courthouse.

BT: We discovery Printing Press and start Democracy. I also bump our science rate up to 70% to finish in four turns and still have a profit of 16gpt. Nineveh's rushed courthouse is finished and a granary is started. Dover's cultural influence expanded. The Russians started Leonardo's Workshop, as if they have a chance. Nottingham is only 4 turns away (along with London's Sun Tzu's Art of War).

2)670AD - Misc Movement. Cathy has printing press, but she wants too much for it. Mao & Hammi also have it. I try to renegotiate right of passage with Bizzi, but he has very little and won't give us a per turn deal, so I wait.

BT: Richmond finishes a courthouse and starts an aquaduct. I adjust Richmond's tiles to speed up the aquaduct, but at a cost of food per turn. We have enough extra to spare before Richmond starves. Cambridge finishes a worker and starts a granary.

3)680AD - Misc Movement. Mao is the only one with any money and he gives us 40 for Peace and ROP.

BT: We lost our supply of wines.

4)690AD - Misc Movement. Joan wants alot for those wines. We can live without them.

BT: Oxford finishes a marketplace and starts a bank. Norwich finishes a university and starts a bank. Reading completes a courthouse and starts a marketplace.

5)700AD - Misc Movement. Adjust science down to 60% so that we get Democracy in one turn, along with our two wonders.

BT: Mao offers Music Theory for Printing Press. I turn him down. We finish researching Democracy and start Economics. I can leave science at 60%. We choose not to revolt yet, because I want to two wonders first. London finishes Sun Tzu's and starts a bank. Nottingham finishes Leo's and also starts a bank. Brighton finishes a library and also starts a bank. The Russians are building JS Bach's Cathedral. The French are building Sistine Chapel. So are the Germans. The Babylonians are building The Hanging Gardens and JS Bach's Cathedral. The Chinese are building The Hanging Gardens and JS Bach's Cathedral. We have information that the Chinese city of Tsingtao has completed a great project, The Hanging Gardens.

6)710AD - Misc Movement. Now that we have our wonders, I send us into a revolt. Anarchy causes a number of cities to need tile adjustments so they don't lose too much food.

BT: A German worker steps into our territory near Richmond. The French are building Sistine Chapel. Babylonian's are building JS Bach's Cathedral.

7)720AD - Misc Movement.

BT: The German worker is irrigating our desert tile.

8)730AD - Misc Movement. Our galley finds some unclaimed land in the southern part of the vast ocean.

BT:

9)740AD - Misc Movement.

BT:

10)750AD - Misc Movement.
prod-shadow-zot-750ad.zip

 

[Sirian]

Printing Press learned Economics (I want Smith, the sooner our Markets Banks and Harbours are free the better)

At first glance, this may appear to make sense. However, when will Smith's actually be completed? In four or five turns? Nope. It's going to take longer than that. Or... if you were to go to war to fish for a great leader to do it, you'd have to get some elites, rely heavily on good luck, and it would still take time even in the best case scenario -- and you can't rely on the best case. You have to prepare and plan for bad luck, too, or at least account for it in your plan.

Since it's going to take AT LEAST twenty-five turns to build Smith's from scratch, but Economics tech is otherwise useless (we won't be running any Wealth here), why prioritize it to grab it first?

What can wait, should wait. Start a prebuild if you like, but do research along a more fruitful line in the interim.


Smith's trading company is generally a very weak wonder. It has its uses, but let's examine the actual value we would get here.

Do we have any banks? Do we have any harbors? Are we ever going to have many harbors? How many markets do we have?

If the thing were built next turn, we'd get a couple of harbors paid for, a bank or two (and a few more soonish), and we'd get six or eight markets paid for, and a few more soon. That's what? About a dozen gpt? And how long before THAT minor amount of extra income pays for the commerce spent to research an otherwise optional, largely useless tech? Not to mention the 600 shields invested.

Now I'm not saying Smith's is a waste of time, but two rounds in a row now, you are beelining toward it with great fervor, as if it were the key to success, the end-all and be-all of strategies. A closer look might show otherwise.

Sun-Tzu and Leo will finish next turn but I prefer Sistine to Sun-Tzu so London to Sistine

You didn't explain why you prefer Sistine to SunTzu.

There are actually four wonders in play here: SunTzu, Leo, Sistine, and Bach. We could get access to Bach by trading for the tech. We have two wonders going to complete, but no other cities in progress, so the AI's ARE going to get two of these, and may get more if they are not finished before the AI's get to Astronomy. So which ones do we want, and why?

What we get from SunTzu: A) 1gpt saved in maintenance costs per city on the continent; B) Automatic barracks into every city on the continent, worth 40 shields, potentially worth the equivalent of 160g worth of rushbuying, per barracks. We have about twenty cities, and barracks in only four or five of them. (Note: SunTzu is worth more to a nonmilitaristic civ). C) In addition to these benefits, there is the factor of immediacy: we gain the free barracks immediately, which offers speedier healing to wounded units, and the chance to upgrade units anywhere any time without any need for unit shuffling, and also offers the chance to produce veteran units anywhere on the continent, including emergency rushbought units if need be. D) On top of all of that, there is the fact that we will be denying all these benefits to one of the AI's. It is worth noting that the civs who get the Pyramids and SunTzu tend to rise to the top of the pack. The AI's do not generally prioritize barracks -- you've all seen them running around with lots of regulars, even into the Industrial age. If there are any wonders where the denial factor looms large, it is these.


What we get from Leonardo's: Half-price upgrades. Um, that's about it. Depending on how many units we already have, and how many we may produce, the value of this wonder can vary greatly. Those who concentrate on infrastructure and economy, as we have in this game, get LESS benefit out of Leo for having fewer units sitting around to be upgraded. Now what is the actual economic value of this? It costs 2g per shield for upgrade, vs 4g per shield for rushbuy. Leo's drops the cost to 1g per shield for upgrade, and saves 1g per shield.

20 shields per spear, 30 pike, 60 musket, 80 rifle, 90 infantry, 110 mech.
10 shields per warrior, 30 sword.
20 shields per archer, 40 longbow.
20 shields per chariot, 30 horseman, 70 knight, 80 cav.
20 shields per catapult, 40 cannon, 80 artillery, 120 radar artillery.
30 sheilds per galley, 40 caravel, 60 galleon, 100 transport.
100 shields per tank, 120 per armor.
80 shields per fighter, 100 per jet.

The big jumps are from spear/pike to musket/rifle. Also from chariot/horseman to knight/cav and from cat/cannon to artillery. Early in the game, shields are at premium, as there are a lot of things you can build: infrastructure, culture, wonders, troops, settlers, workers, ships, scouts. Over time, the wonders dry up, the need for more settlers and workers dries up (may reopen a bit with war or navigation, but even that is limited), and a city can run out of cultural and other improvements by building them all. Then the only thing left to build is units, more units, or wealth. At that point, the emphasis shifts from shields being more at a premium, to commerce being more at a premium. Tech costs go up, weak AI's fall by the wayside, and commerce becomes the main factor, as you are further ahead to disband old units in corrupt cities for the shields, and build new modern units out of the cities with nothing else left to do, than to spend your precious cash on the upgrades.

Leo's can change the balance of that. If you have Leo's, if you bothered to invest those key shields early enough (into the wonder, or into war to capture the wonder or produce a leader to rush the wonder), you might as well take advantage and upgrade everything you own. Of course, that can also be a logistical headache for the player if only a few barracks are available and you have to do a lot of unit shuffle.

Still, unless you pull a "pillage your resources tile to regain access to obsolete units" maneuver, you only get one pass at the upgrades. That is, you get to upgrade what you already have, but then the benefit is OVER, as any new units produced will be upgraded already. It's a one-time discount, in effect, and thus easy to figure out the actual results.

We have about 20 pikes, another half-dozen spears or so, a few warriors, one horseman, a couple of catapults, one ship, one archer. We'd save 30g per pike upgrading to musket. That's an immediate savings of 600g. We'd save 40g per spear, which might be another 300g or so. If we end up with thirty muskets, we save another 20g per on the move to rifles, for another 600g saved... eventually. If we build more muskets in the interim, the savings could rise. We're looking at a certainty of about 2000g saved, or about 100g per city. Also, this gold is all up front, not doled out into the distant future, when each gold piece means progressively less and less to the overall civ, as the economy grows.

On the other hand, as with some of the barracks supplied by SunTzu, some of the upgrades made available by Leo are not worth as much as they may appear. That is to say, you can postpone some of the upgrading, safely, and use the money to speed research. Spend the money to upgrade at some later point when the value of each gold piece has been deflated. Fact is, you are probably not wise to upgrade all your units at the full price. Unless you get into a desperate situation where you pull ALL of your units into a war (leaving many or even most of your cities empty undefended), you will leave some units behind. The ones you leave behind can, in most cases, be the unupgraded units. Or... you can use the unupgraded and/or obsolete units for cheap duty like flip suppression, resistance pacification, military police or shore blockades.

Thus, with both SunTzu and Leonardo's, you want to look at the raw numbers, but also look past them to the real value. And once again, you must also consider what you are taking away from the AI's. As of the recent patches, the AI's now rigorously upgrade their units wherever they have barracks, as the money comes available. Thus, any civ who gets SunTzu will have all their units upgraded on the home continent, and any who get Leo's will upgrade their units sooner, at lower cost.


What we get from Sistine Chapel: We get double effect on any cathedrals we build. For folks like me, this tends to be negligible as I will buy up and pay for luxury imports if they are available. Markets plus high luxury (5+, and especially 7+) completely overshadows the effects of Sistine Chapel, at least until your cities start to grow past size 15. However, Sistine's value is increased in any situation where fewer luxuries are available (for whatever reasons), and for games that will run into the modern age, where city sizes will grow large enough to need as much happiness as possible. The value is also much higher for religious civs, both to help kick off a golden age via wonders, and because the half-price cathedrals will come online sooner. Building Sistine can give you more WLTKD, as you cannot have ANY unhappy faces for those, and that can be valuable for managing large empires, but nonreligious civs cannot afford to rushbuy cathedrals in corrupt cities just to pull in a few more spt via lower corruption. Bach's is much better in that regard, as it applies to any city on the landmass, without having to build anything.

Let's look at the benefit of Sistine another way. In order to turn three unhappy faces content, it would cost 3gpt worth of luxury tax. So in raw numbers, Sistine is worth 3gpt for each city with a cathedral. Actual value may vary, as the benefit may be wasted in some cases, or in others it may replace more than 3gpt worth of lux taxes. In any event, because it requires cathedrals, which tend to be expensive to build and not available except in the core until the late game, if ever, Sistine is the opposite of Leo. Leo's benefit is immediate and large, then it's over. It may come around again for another hit with more modern techs, and pay off again, but it starts big then it's done. Sistine starts with trickles and works its way up as more cathedrals are added. It's only worth CASH if you use it as substitute for luxury trading, but then you lose the diplomatic value of being a trading partner to somebody. Sistine can pay off really big in some situations, but there are others where it won't matter much and wouldn't be missed.


What we get from Bach's Cathedral: 2/3rds the value of Sistine, immediately and permanently in every city on the landmass. Sistine, then, is increased in value if your cities are spread across multiple landmasses. Bach's, clearly, becomes more valuable if most or all of your cities are on the same landmass. Bach's does not require that you build anything, nor spend any money to activate it. In our current game where everything we have is one one landmass, Bach's gives an immediate value where Sistine's value will be minimal at first, and only trickle in much later to the smaller, more corrupt locations. Economically, Bach's is worth 2gpt in every city large enough to benefit from its help, and especially to any unconnected cities, for the brief moments until workers connect the city. Bach's can be of GREAT help in getting WLTKD running in highly corrupt locations, as it works without building a church. Bach's is also more likely to help the AI who builds it, and is worth more to the AI's on lower difficulty. On higher difficulty, especially Deity, AI's tend to get more value out of Sistine because they build everything faster, including cathedrals.


What we would get out of Smith's: pure economic benefit, and nothing more. We'd get about 10 to 12 gpt for starters, if it were built now, and add 1gpt for each market, harbor or bank. If we stayed at our current 20 cities, that would eventually climb to about 48gpt, once all the cities are maxed (20+20 for markets and banks, and 8 harbors) then climb a bit more in paying for any airports we might build. 48gpt tops until the end of the industrial age. Do you realize we can get 50gpt from Wall Street, for half the shields and keeping a 1000g treasury balance? Getting both is nice, but the ACTUAL benefit we'd get from Smith would be about 20gpt until the immature half of our cities become greatly matured. 20gpt may sound like a lot, and it's not chump change, but that is NOT the same 20gpt from Polytheism times, when that was a fortune. 20gpt right now will buy about one more luxury for our civ.


So which wonders should we get?

There can be no doubt, SunTzu's is the most valuable to us in the current situation. We get the ability to upgrade anywhere. We get 40 shields per city we don't have to spend on barracks toward building EVERYTHING ELSE sooner, and we get barracks in places we'd never bother to put them otherwise. We deny one AI universal veteran unit production as well as universal upgrade access. We also save 1gpt per city, which is 4 or 5 we were spending that we aren't any more, plus the upkeep on all the free barracks that we aren't spending. We also get a free barracks in any new cities on the continent that we settle, flip, or capture. The economic benefits are relatively minor. The real benefit is the security: we can not only upgrade anywhere we like, but even selectively upgrade, knowing that we can't get caught with our pants down when we can upgrade any units anywhere at any time.

On pelago maps where the cities are scattered across islands, SunTzu value drops tremendously, but may still be significant if, as in RBCiv Epic Two, each AI tends to have their own largish island.


Now... perhaps you have reasons for wanting Sistine chapel that may pay off. You might even make a case -- perhaps not a strong one, but a case -- for preferring Sistine to SunTzu. However, you preferred both Sistine and Leo to SunTzu, and in my view that's a weak choice. SunTzu is simply worth too much all around for this nearly-pangaea situation. The only choices are for the second wonder, between Sistine, Leo, and Bach. Leo adds to the value of SunTzu, as combined they compliment one another. Bach is also strong for this situation, as it would benefit all our cities. The weakest of the 600shield wonders for this situation is Smith's, which is worth more on pelago maps to pay for all the harbors and airports. Airports do little good on pangaea maps, and there are fewer harbors. Smith is the only commercial wonder of the era, but we can secure it with a prebuild and DIScourage the AI's from beelining to it by not lowering their research costs on economics to @2nd price by researching it immediately.


To Be Continued... (15000 character limit per post)

 

[Sirian]

If we are ever going to democracy, the sooner the better. We lose less culture now than we would later. We lose less commerce, less shields, gain the lowered corruption benefits sooner and our workers speed up sooner, to better improve our cities, especially the distant ones or the ones bogged down in jungle. IF we are going to democracy, it should not wait, at least not once the current wonders being built are finished. And the smart play, if still wanting to get Smith's quickly, involves coordinating your projects. Start a prebuild and prepare, plan. Get democracy first, switch, then leave yourself enough cushion on when to research economics to be sure to have the tech a few turns before either 600 shields would be accumulated or your best prebuild short of that would run out of time. And if not swapping to democracy, get other techs first. Get chemistry and metallurgy and start building cannons and coastal forts. Smith's can be done ASAP, but what is lost by waiting? Markets, banks, harbors will be done as they can be done. If Smith's were to be delayed a few turns, the loss is only 12gpt per turn of delay, and rising a little bit as more buildings finish.

I'm reminded of Sulla's incense move in RBE DSG1. He just couldn't see why I'd choose to postpone bringing incense online, so he vetoed my dotmap and beelined a settler to the incense location. Half a city's worth of terrain on top of the capital went to waste as a result. I didn't exactly explain it at the time, so not his fault. Sometimes I can abstract the economic pros and cons in the way a chess master can see ten moves ahead and plan the current move accordingly. On Deity, sometimes every penny counts. However, a skilled player can pursue multiple goals at once. Effective project planning and coordination can see you through to achieving several goals in unison, instead of pursuing only one at a time and, perhaps, being wasteful of other opportunities while having your eyes fixed on a single prize.

This still comes back to the notion of figuring out "what can wait". That's where the judgement calls come in, and why I don't mind sharing what I've learned about the game. Even armed with the same understandings of pro and con, and even matched with roughly similar levels of experience, skill, and confidence, players may come out with widely different results. The game is complex enough to keep it interesting.


Finally, some comments about SG's.

There's training for solo play (the Epics, for example) and then there is training for SG play. The two are not the same. SG play involves cooperation. At its best, this becomes true teamwork, but may also involve disharmony and disagreement about strategy, and resolving these adequately.

In baseball, sometimes a batter is asked to sacrifice himself for the good of the team: to bunt, to fly out with a man on third, or to hold back on the home run swing and go for a higher percentage base hit with the game on the line. Succession games are like that, too, especially with the ten turn format. Twenty turns allows for more hotdogging, as you can be sure to lay out and execute a whole plan within twenty turns. In ten turns, you may fall in the middle of diplomatic deals you inherit and never have a chance to change them. You may be handed a research project or path that you don't think is optimal, but in which the team has already invested resources. Likewise other things, including workers off in lala land while the core goes neglected, or cities with poorly coordinated projects that you can't fix in ten turns. Often it pays to veto and change course, but that too takes good judgement. It's possible to make things worse, especially if you ignore opportunities or cling insistently to one preconceived game plan, without regard to the variables you are handed, in the form of choices made by your teammates.

Finding a working balance with your team is important. Making the most of what you are handed, adapting to the moment, is highly valuable, even more so than any Cookie Cutter game plan, no matter how sound it may be appear on paper. Most importantly, if you start to wield the veto pen, you need to inspire comfort and confidence in your teammates. It may help to explain why you make the choices you do, especially if you abandon a major goal set by a predecessor, in which your civ has invested resources.

"Plan: rush to Mil Trad build Cavs and kick some butt" does not exactly fit with the game plan here. From this position that would be a cakewalk for you here on Regent. If you are itching to go that route, by all means do -- in your shadows. When you are "up", please stick to the peaceful builder mandate, and choose your game plans accordingly.


I know that you've beaten the game on Emperor now, Rowain, perhaps several times. You might still have something to gain here in the TDG, and you are welcome to continue along with us, but as for the goals I set for all of the players when we started this, you've achieved them. You have your act well enough together to stand on your own and are ready to leave the nest.


Overall Grade: Passing. :grad:

Consider yourself a Prod Graduate.


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

670AD: Reading in disorder? I also let that happen. The worst part for me is that I saw it coming and just forgot to go back the next turn to head it off.

690AD: Your method of getting two for one value from a tech buy is on the right track. That's a key technique for successful trade when playing from behind. There is one issue that can undermine the value of a tech sale: if the AI is researching the tech, their progress toward the discovery comes off the sale price. That is, if an AI is about to discover the tech themselves, or is working on it, they value the tech less than a different AI who is researching something else. That could explain why France was not willing to offer as much as you thought they should. Or there might be another explanation.

In this case, though, this trade was unwise. Music Theory has one, and only one, use: the ability to build Bach's Cathedral. Once that wonder has been built, the value on Music Theory drops to pennies. Literally, pennies. We're not going to build this wonder. The AI's have large investments into wonders and have cascaded to Sistine. One of them will build Sistine, then the rest will cascade to Bach and one will get that one. In other words, we have no chance at Bach's in the current situation, so we don't want to pay the full price for the tech. We could ignore the tech, even. Choosing to ignore the optional techs can get you to the industrial age faster, get railroads available faster, factories, hospitals, and double speed workers. In some cases, optional tech can be worthwhile.

For example, if you ignore all optional techs for the entire length of the game, you remain stuck in despotism. All the government techs are optional. Yet... do you need all of the government techs? Not always. If you go right to Republic, you can ignore Monarchy if you aren't going for the Hanging Gardens. If you are playing Always War, the representative govts are useless and you can skip them. The middle ages have the most optional techs, two of which have no use except access to a wonder, and others that offer benefits you can afford to do without in many cases (and let the AI's research them and drop the price, even if you do decide you want them).

Luxuries are almost always worth it. Just pay what you have to pay. Notice that in my round, I renewed the wines for gpt, and the price was significant compared to previous deals. The price is going to continue to rise, too. With cities restricted to size 12 at the moment, it may not be worthwhile to buy more luxuries on top of the ones we already have, but there's a big gap between the cities with markets and the ones who don't have markets yet, which is something to keep an eye on in measuring the worth of each additional luxury. It does cost more per luxury to buy extras, and since deal renewals come around at intervals, if you have five lux, you end up paying @5th-lux price for EACH one you buy. If you go to having six, you pay @6th for each. Etc. Luxuries tend to be more urgent for representative governments, though, as it is almost always cheaper and better to pay for imports than to run lux taxes.

690AD: Mao probably spent his money on military upgrades. In earlier patches, the AI's used to have piles of money sitting around, and tons of obsolete units. Now they tend to remain broke until the mid-industrial age because they are constantly spending whatever bits they get on upgrading their units.

700AD: As for AI's shuffling units around, you'll learn with experience to recognize the different stances. There are telltale signs to give away when they are making an aggressive move. If their units are wandering around aimlessly, wholly within their own territory, that is "patrol mode". The AI's will patrol their own lands as a show of force, perhaps because the Firaxians think it "looks cool". Militarily, it DOES put them into position to sneak across a border on a moment's notice, but it overall it's a dud as a tactical maneuver.

Any time AI's unit cross into YOUR lands, though, you need to be on alert. You particularly need to be on alert if they come in force and are all heading in one direction. Still not panic time, as their target could be a barb camp (in the early game) or another AI. However, the AI's do not move large offensive forces in a straight line without hostile intent. The key is figuring out what their target is, and perhaps letting them pass unhindered if you are confident you know the target is someone other than you.

A civ in "patrol mode", shuffling units restlessly along borders, is currently wholly at peace, no military targets at all. That's a good thing. In our game plan, that's exactly what we want: all the AI's behaving themselves.

Some other reasons AI's may be moving through your lands without hostile intent: settler pairs; reinforcements to their own distant, separated cities (includes workers, mainly, but occasionally a troop or two); and in some cases, exploration, especially if you have signed a RoP. AI's will happily move all kinds of units through your lands for no apparent reason if you have signed a RoP. There's no substitute for experience in being comfortable -- or not -- with how the AI's are behaving.

700AD: You passed up the chance to save a half-turn off your anarchy duration. In this case, it worked out for you, as you drew a different random seed and got a shorter anarchy period than I did. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. However, the luck could easily have been reversed. You can't rely on luck, so it's best to plan around it, on average.

If you had slowed research on Democracy, as I did, to have the tech come in a turn later, you could have revolted from the "Yes, let the revolt begin" dialogue. That would count the present turn toward the anarchy duration, AFTER that turn's commerce has already been counted. Thus "save half a turn of anarchy". It actually saves zero turns on shields and food, but saves a whole turn on commerce. Or rather, given identical random seeds for identical anarchy lengths, it would save that. In this case, you drew a shorter seed and thus actually saved more with luck than I did with planning.

As for starting research on Economics, I refer you to my comments to Rowain in this regard. Since you did not also start a prebuild for Smith's, I am left to wonder why you are researching Economics?

710AD: No use maxing gold, the only source of gold during anarchy is taxmen. The game has a quick way of maxing food: run through the towns and click on the center tile. The game will auto-reorganize the tiles, and under anarchy, will max the food and then put the rest to taxmen. You have to be careful, though, as it may go haywire and assign ALL the citizens to specialist duty if the city is in revolt.

Now here's a trick for minimizing food loss. If you let a city go into disorder, it won't lose food. If you let it STAY in disorder for more than one consecutive turn, there is risk of rioting (true rioting) which will destroy improvements. You can, however, go safely in and out of disorder every other turn, and not lose food in starving cities on the disorder turns. This is micromanagement of an extreme order, but if a given city is losing, say, 4+ food, or especially 6+, this can save a lot of trouble, including starvation. If you do use alternating civil disorder like this, you want to be SURE to bring all the cities out of disorder on the last turn of the anarchy, so they are good to go under the new government. Of course, if the city has too much luxury to go into disorder at all, you are stuck on making the most of the food you have.

750AD: Buying their world map for cash? You can sell them currency for pennies or even give it away, then go on to sell them something else, like engineering or feudalism, for their world map and perhaps 20 turns of a luxury. Why not? The other AI's will get to navigation and wander out and make contact before America can catch up on their own, for sure. Save our dough and trade them something they're going to get on the cheap eventually anyway, while the price is still inflated for them! Of course, all is not lost, as next player up could still turn around and buy your cash back with tech sales, in this situation, and end up in the same place, but only because the round ended on this turn.

Your trading mechanics are not at fault. Your eye for weighing the value of particular techs, in particular situations, to particular civs (us or them)... needs more experience.


Overall Grade: C

count: Two. (Sea Exploration, City Management)
count: Two. (Loopy Trading, Uncoordinated research)


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

Very nice round!

A couple of city management nits: Ninevah is about to grow again, without a granary. That would waste a lot of food. Better to give the irrigated tile back to Liverpool, where it will do more good, serving a city with less corruption and more improvements. Also, you have Warwick on cathedral. At this point, the cultural battles in that region have been lost. With eight (8!) lux available, a market will put any and all cities into WLTKD, which will help mightily with corruption, and the market will be done sooner, which would then add shields and cause other projects to be completed sooner. Corruption management is more complex than ever in the current patch, but now also more worthwhile than ever.

The choice to pass up democracy is a judgement call. We can make do without it. The question is whether the worker speed boost, lower corruption, lower shield waste, and the diplomatic boosts, are worth the commerce and shields lost during anarchy, as well as the risks of increased weariness if we get into wars. If the game plan is to shoot for a modern age win (diplo, space), then it's likely worthwhile. The longer the game goes, the more we'd get out of the switch, especially from the workers boosting our improvement speed for a nonindustrious civ.

IF the switch is going to be made at all, it is best made as soon as possible, with these exceptions: 1) If you have wonders in progress, in wonder races that might be lost if you surrender as many as eight rounds of production to the anarchy period, you should finish the wonders first. 2) If you are currently at war, and both the weariness and the lost production might hurt you. 3) If you have too many gpt debts from tech buys, and would run a deficit under anarchy that would break the bank and start costing you units and improvements, you need to wait until your economy and treasury can handle the strain for a full eight turns, in case you draw a bad seed (nonreligious civ).

See my remarks to Rowain about democracy for more info.

Seeing as you made the call to forego the switch, and accepting that as legitimate, I liked just about everything in the way you handled it. You beelined the tech forward, you stayed focused on universities -- and with us running 70% science, those will get more benefit than banks, as well as add lots more culture -- and completed an appropriate amount of unit upgrades as well as stayed focused on vital techs, letting the optionals wait for the AI's to pick them up.

One more nit: democracy is a "highly valued" tech now, to the AI's. Like Nationalism, they charge extra for it. So waiting for them to research it to lower the costs won't do us much good, could do more harm than good if we then bought it off them, paying them in vital techs or cash. IF YOU ARE STILL THINKING OF GOING TO DEMOCRACY IN THE FUTURE, you misplayed it. Get there ASAP, as waiting on the AI's to lower the costs on it is costing us way more than it can possibly gain. Make swaps to "better" governments of choice at the earliest possible safe opportunity.

Finally, the sale of Printing Press. Since you stated you were hoping the AI's would research democracy, perhaps that factored in to this decision. Democracy and Nationalism are two techs where (as of this patch) it almost always pays to research it yourself. There are exceptions, of course. Assuming the opposite stance, which is the one I would take, we want to delay the AI's getting to democracy as much as possible, the same as we want to delay them getting to steam, rep parts, or wonder techs. I would put Printing Press sale in the category of "if it can wait, it should wait". At least you got good value for it, though, including Music Theory tech which you then turned into a free round of wines. Considering that the wines alone are worth over 300g now, you did OK. You were stingy with the rest of your tech lead, which is good. If you kept on in this direction, and continued to be stingy with selling off your tech lead, you'd race on out in front in the Industrial age and have your pick of victory routes.

One more thing: you did not start any cities on prebuilds. Going to pass up Copernicus? Newton? Possibly Smiths? What about Wall Street? If nothing else, you could have a city ready and waiting on Wall Street, to have it done sooner. You did start Magellan's, I saw.


Overall Grade: A-

count: Lots.
count: One. (Relying on AI's to lower democracy costs).


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

As usual, TBC's report is lively, humorous and fun. I remember back to round one when that was (ack) the only positive thing I could say about his results. Things have come a long way since then. Although that "drunken sailor" song may still offer some self-fulfilling prophecy at times.

Yep, sometimes you play the cards you are dealt. Sometimes it's not the fault of the cards, though, or not entirely their fault. All is proceeding apace for the first few turns. Everyone got the disease at Liverpool. That's going to recur regularly until we get more of the jungle cleared out. So that one was not your fault.

Then we get to the wine renewal deal. You sold her what? WHAT???

Since you are up next in the official hotseat, TBC, I'm going to ask you to refrain from any tech sales. Don't put any of our tech on the trading block, no matter what.

It's possible when running a tech lead vs a pack of peaceful, up and coming AI's with strong and growing economies, to blow that tech lead by failing to sell off techs just before the AI's will discover them and do it anyway. The cash you get can fuel your own research to faster rates, as well as drain some of those AI's economies a bit. That's getting into the upper levels of trading skills, though. You need an experienced eye to know the difference between AI's who are about to make breakthroughs vs those who are simply broke, as well as the difference between "get what you can because you can't wait any more" vs "giving away your tech lead and getting nothing for it".

When you are still trying to figure these out, it is best to err on the side of caution. That is, it's a lesser mistake, almost always, to fail to sell a tech to the AI when you should have, than it is to sell them one when you should not. Err on the side of stinginess.

Never value gold more than techs. Never. If a lux deal expires, never sell state of the art tech to renew it. Never. You can sell off techs that some of the other AI's already have, or IF you would be selling the tech that turn anyway, you can take luxuries as part of your payments. That may be getting too complex here for the moment, though. So let's try "don't sell any techs at all to anybody" for a couple of rounds.

Again, it only hurts when you fail to sell if there was something to gain in the first place. There is such a thing as wealthy, productive AI's who make good customers, but these ain't them. OK?

On the up side, at least you told that sheister Catherine where to stick her fraudulent trade offering.


700AD: See my comments to the others, as well as my turn report, for how to improve your management of a government change. Also, you left some cities on food deficit in the anarchy that were capable of feeding themselves. You can press the center tile in the city display to have the city governor auto arrange the tiles to its liking, and it does a good job during anarchy, when food is the ONLY concern. Just watch out for cities in disorder, as the governor may have been stuffed in a closet and some loon posing as an imposter could order a big party where nobody works and the whole place starves. You can run quickly through the scroll ahead to make sure you hit each city, then go back after the government change to micromanage each city's tile arrangement to get back to normal.

750AD: Yeah, the deal to sell a resource to an AI who has the resource but unconnected is a good move. Unfortunately, trading away Gunpowder to the AI's just a turn or two after they first got their hands on Invention, when there's NO WAY any of them are close to researching it, was... up there... on the scale of "what is he smoking".


Bad luck happens. No blame for the long anarchy (it hit me too), or the bouts of disease. Thems the breaks. You'll need to get that itchy trade finger under control, though, as you will continue to struggle in games on your own if you pull the trigger on trade deals like the one this round. You sold state of the art tech @2nd for... a song. I understand that Joanie batted her eyelashes at you and you didn't even know what you were signing, but good thing that was on a shadow turn.

You're up next in the hotseat. Good luck and godspeed.


Overall Grade: D+

count: Three. (Finished wonders before anarchy, saltpeter deal, key military upgrades)
count: One. (Tech giveaway)


- Sirian

 

[Griselda]

Well, while we're on the subject of judging AI hostility, this just came up in a SP game of mine. Houston is out on the fringes of my civ, near the last unsettled bit of land on this map. There's still some barbarians in the area, but I expect it to be all settled within 10-20 turns or so, and many civs are trying to get in on the fun out there. So, there's any number of reasons why France might want to have units near me (we also have a ROP).

But, when I went to move my worker, I realized that France is now occupying my iron, my horses, and my floodplain. There are even 2 warriors on the horses. Even though they're not fortified, I'm not sure they would really "accidentally" stand on all my resources , would they?

edit- It also might be worthwhile to mention that that's a single French city up there north of Houston, not France itself.

-Griselda

 

[Sirian]

As strange as it may sound, yes, that is surey just a coincidence. The AI's have limited targetting. They target resource tiles for pillaging, but not for blockade (parking units on them). They are clearly not targetting your city (yet), as they have walked past it and all seem to be heading south, toward what is probably barbarians.

Even for the AI, it's sometimes better to be lucky than good.

You are very adept at forming logical suspicions. Unfortunately, logic rarely has much to do with these AI's. They can only follow their programming, and though they are capable of pulling the occasional true surprise, they are not capable of coordinating anything whatsoever. They couldn't get units onto three strategic positions simultaneously like that if you held a gun to their heads and gave them 1000 tries.

On the other hand, perhaps I should not dispel the mystique of the AI's for you. The longer you manage to hold out against the inevitable revelations about their limitations, the more hours of "newbie" status you enjoy. And... you remember playing PnP RPG's, I'm sure. Wasn't it the most fun when you started, and your imagination ruled the roost, before too much knowledge of the game mechanics set in and the mystique wore off?

You're giving these AI's too much credit. They are very good, for the state of the art in artificial intelligence, but their limits show through clearly after you've been playing for a while. They are very adept at executing single-minded operations, but incapable of the kind of strategic analysis it would take to CHOOSE to put their units into the position you've shown.


- Sirian

 

[hotrod0823]

Prod English 750 AD

750 AD (0): Anarchy continues, 4 turns remain. The crazy German worker continues to help the cause. Reup the gems deal with France for 5gpt and 30 gold, up from 3 gpt. Russian sword is in our lands without an ROP and I can't ask him to leave ???

760 AD (1): some worker actions, land spotted to the SE. I wonder who could be there.

770 AD (2): Mines complete in the mountains of York, move on to the jungle.

780 AD (3): Some worker actions, more irrigation at Exeter, mines at Oxford on bonus grass. Contact America finally. Wait on the trades, can't trade for his lux until next turn. Cannot establish an embassy, can't get to the embassy screen??

790 AD (4): Anarchy is over, new Democracy of England formed. Make the rounds for MM, set all 12 cities to max sheilds if possible no growth. Warwick will revolt in 5 turns, consider rushing cathedral if we can't get new lux from America. Establish Embassy with America, guess you need a gov't to get an embassy, that makes sense for asking cathy to remove her troops too. Lux still aren't available, no harbors? Trade WM for Wm and 1 gold. Set our research to 60%, chemistry in 4 with +54 gold.
Lost the "new" iron to culture of China. Need to get iron by liverpool online or trade with china. There was no popup, I just noticed in the trade screens when talking with China. Sell maps all around for about 200 gold. No contact just maps. Ask cathy to move her swords, she complies. Use my new found map money to upgrade 5 spears to muskets.

800 AD (5): Russia is at war with China. Dover completes a settler and starts a marketplace. Settler heads to the NW, to wait for the war with China and Russia to begin, possible poacher. Trade Abe Engineering for Spice, silk and his 2 gold. Reup our dyes deal with Cathy from 4gpt to 3gpt, and 40 gold. Also ask Cathy and Mao to take there aggressive behavior elsewhere, both comply. Now everybody is happy change Warwick from Cathedral to marketplace.

810 AD (6): Cathy wants TM for TM. Okay by me. sending galley home. Caravel will complete next turn.

820 AD (7): Leed build caravel, starts temple. Oxford builds caravel, start another. One caravel loads up settler, musket and sword, other move to pickup the same, move musket from Leeds to cover Oxford for now. Change caravel to musket. Cut research to 40% +180 gold.

830 AD (8): Learn chemistry start physics. Richmond builds granary start aqueduct. Forify settler in Newcastle. Brighton longbow completes start cathedral for some culture pressure, too little I fear to get iron back. Set research back to 60%, physics in 4 with +59 gold. Move workers to iron near liverpool.

840 AD (9): Hastings completes bank starts musket for reinforcements at Leeds and Oxford. Cantebury completes bank start university. Newcastle completes bank start university. Cambridge completes worker start granary. Banks increase gpt to +79

850 AD (10): Nineveh completes courthouse start marketplace. coventry finishes university starts bank. We can build Wall street in as little as 7 turns in Nottingham or go for Copernicus's for as little as 11 turns at Nottingham Sistines is available in 19. Cancel ROP with France, new wines deal is up in 4 turns. We have 627 gold, get Physics in 2 with +81 gpt. Still way ahead in Tech. lead all by PP/Banking/Demo., Chemisty, Navigation and soon phyics. China is the only one with any real gold to speak of. Will trade it all and then some for Printing press.




Hotrod Shadow - 850AD

 

[hotrod0823]

I posted my turn before I noticed a missing review of Zot's turn. Whoops!

 

[Sirian]

Hotrod: don't worry about it. I could get these critiques done faster if I put less into them, but I'm only ever planning to do one of these analysis games.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

670AD: The AI's had Printing Press but want too much for it, after we discovered it last turn? Something got confused here.

Running a food deficit for a bit at a city with HIGH food like Richmond is a good idea sometimes. Shave a turn or two off a key project and make it up easily later.

690AD: We might be able to live without the wines for a while, but we will want them back at some point. You'll have to adjust to the concept of prices rising as our territory and population expand. Keep in mind that the economy is also expanding, as a percentage of our gross, the prices remain steady or even begin to drop. On higher difficulty, passing up a chance to renew a lux deal CAN mean permanently losing access to the luxury, as there are often situations where there are fewer of a given lux type than there are civs in the game. If your supplier finds another customer, you may end up in serious trouble. That won't be the case here, but it is something to be aware of. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.

700AD: Just one of those rare times when it actually pays to slow things down a little on research, or at least it would have given identical seeds for the anarchy duration. See the other critiques and my report for more info.


One thing you did that I liked a lot was the road from London to Coventry. That's a high-priority throughway, which I have put some effort into opening across the last several rounds now, but the players have been ignoring it. Now that my turn at the official game has come, the road is done and I won't have to redo it again next round. But I was happy to see someone else build it, too.

You missed the opportunity to upgrade some of our troops. Frugality might dictate that "some of that can wait", but it would still be prudent to get SOME immediate use out of those wonders, by upgrading all the troops along the borders.

Also, why did you choose Economics to research next? See the other critiques for more on this issue.


Overall Grade: B


- Sirian

 

[hotrod0823]

It was my bad. Had to take a break form Epic 14 and 15 so pickedup the Prod as soon as I could. Didn't check all the posts before I posted. Take all the time you need, all information is greatly appreciated.

 

[Griselda]

I have never had to stop and start so many times in the course of a 10 turn game. My schedule was a bit loopy, so I ended up playing

these 10 turns in 4 sessions. So, if sometimes it seems like I forgot what I was doing between one round and the next, that might just be the truth! I wouldn't play an official turn like this, but sometimes RL must take precedent.

(0) 750 AD
- Look at all those workers!

(1) 760 AD
- Russian sword leaves our territory.
- I'm not sure why that swordsman is near Newcastle. I move it to Newcastle. Also, I'm not sure on the lonbowman. I send it to Newcastle.
- Land ho! Galley spied fish and land, but no border.

(2) 770 AD
- France and China have gunpowder. Sell to Babs for 76 + WM + Music Theory. Yes, I read your note about Music Theory last round, but here I'm not really giving up anything for it, and the Babs won't trade any gpt. Cathy only has 26 gold, so she will not have music. She probably wouldn't have appreciated it anyway.
- Some York workers to jungle, some to Norwich mountain.
- Renegotiate peace with China- they only will give 20 gold.

(3) 780 AD
- Galley sees the green shores of America, but still no cities or units.
- Note that Russia, France, Babylon, and China all have astronomy.

(4) 790 AD
- Cast a vote for democracy. Since I'm *still* the only one on the ballot, I win!
- Contact the Americans in Detroit. They're in the middle ages. We can't trade lux yet, maybe because I haven't seen their capitol? That means all we have to get their WM with is tech or gold. I trade monotheism to them for their WM + 1 gold.
- Science to 60%.
- Rush Nineveh courthouse for 68 gold.
- MM everywhere, though in many places of course high food is still nice. Fire all taxmen except in Richmond.

BT-
- Russia declares war on the Chinese.
- WLTTD Coventry.
- Nineveh completes courthouse, starts worker.
- Dover completes settler, starts university.

(5) 800 AD
- Settler towards Canterbury. I'd like to have him up north in case any gaps appear where Chinese or Russia cities used to be.
- Cancel ROP with Joan.
- I could trade Lincoln feudalism for silks, but I decide to hold off a bit. Except for Reading, I'm not having happiness problems, and perhaps I can get it cheaper or in combination with other stuff (like, when I get those other gems hooked up). Also, the Americans have tons of each, so even worst case scenario I miss their contact with another civ, I'm still probably not locking myself out from that kind of lux.

BT-
- Russia and China skirmish along my border.
- Babylon moves out a knight. I'm guessing this is their "patrol" formation? I'll keep an eye out and see.

(6) 810 AD
- Science to 50%; chemistry in 2.
- Tax collector now needed in Leeds.

BT-
- Oxford completes caravel, starts musketman.
- Leeds completes caravel, starts temple. We could start Magellan's, but I'm thinking that, even with the Americans out there, water units won't be a big deal in this game.

(7) 820 AD
- Settler arrives in Nottingham. I wonder if it would be safe to send him all the way to Brighton. I also wonder if what Sirian was saying about AI's counting total units, not types of units, defending cities counts for settlers. Would it actually make Brighton look *better* defended if I had a settler there? Regardless, I move settler towards Brighton.
- Oxford caravel loads settler, musket, sword and heads East. Here's my basic plan with these boats. My galley is going to explore to the north of the "unpopped hut" island. One caravel is going to beeline a settler to the unpopped hut island (though how can a city all the way out there be anything more than a "project" city? Is it just to keep the AI's off?). One caravel is going to load up and explore the seas between my shores and the Americans. Who knows, there could be an island in that fog, and, since the AIs have astronomy, they could potentially find it.
- I also consider starting Copernicus to keep it out of AI hands, but I'm guessing that we'd lose it in the Sistine/Bach cascade.
- Ack! China has our iron! We need culture at Brighton!

BT-
- Chemistry learned. I start physics, because it could lead us quickly to the Theory of Gravity and Newton's before the AI's even get close. Also, it will send us towards the industrial age.
- Nineveh completes worker, starts granary.
- Hastings completes back, starts musketman.
- Brighton completes longbowman, starts university.

(8) 830 AD
- Upgrade time! Liverpool, Coventry, Richmond, Reading, and Dover have spearmen to upgrade.
- In general, I'm not sure what to do to improve desert tiles. In a city like Reading, with lots of 3+ food tiles and very low shields, it's obvious that mining is the way to go. For other cities, Norwich, for example, they may not be able to use a 0-food tile at all without starving the city. I suppose in Norwich's case most of those deserts can be left alone for now? I may irrigate one more.
- See Chinese galley at see, luckily heading south.

BT-
- Canterbury completes bank, starts cathedral.
- Newcastle completes bank, starts university.
- Richmond completes granary, starts aqueduct.
- Cambridge completes worker, starts granary.
- Sevastopol flips to us! I decide to hold a tax collector party there. I also start a temple.
- Americans have a galley out, also going south.

(9) 840 AD
- Note that, even if I changed all taxmen at Sevastopol and elsewhere to scientists I still couldn't shave a turn off of physics.
- Trade Americans furs and engineering for silks and spices. Abe is now polite. I'd better make sure not to lose Sevastopol now!
- Warwick hires taxman, although I'm assuming the silks and spices will be counted before it would have gone into disorder?

BT-
- Massive WLTTD celebrations. [dance]
- Liverpool completes bank, starts worker. I should really get some of that jungle cleared before disease strikes again.
- Our people want to build Wall Street. Maybe we should...

(10) 850 AD
- Bonus grass uncovered by Reading.
- Swap Dover ro Musketman for Sevastopol. Until then, I'll send the musketman that had been guarding the border there.
- You may wonder if the workers in Warwick have been , and I would have to say yes. I moved them to a mountain before deciding they should really irrigate the grass first.
- Reading *still* needs one tax collector! Ungrateful bastards!
- Brighton has the iron back, but I should still build culture there asap.
- Peace and dyes are up with Cathy. I could maybe get more for the dyes, but the gpt peace deal is kinda nice, even at low gpt. I don't have a 20 turn committment, and, I believe, I'm still getting the gold each turn.
- I notice that China has banking, and it looks like Mao researched it himself! I trade it to the Babs for 86 + WM. I offer it to Cathy, who must *really* want it. She gives up 22 gpt + 39 gold + WM for it.

Edit- A few things I realize I forgot in my report. I completely forgot to establish an embassy with the Americans, so it's not just that I didn't mention that. But, I didn't really forget about Wall Street as much as I'm just unsure (is that a cop out?). It seems like I should switch one of the university towns to wall street this turn, but I hadn't decided which one. Norwich could also get it, but I might as well save the prebuild for a great wonder.

-Griselda

850 AD Zip

 

[Zot]

0)750AD - I notice that our Gem deal with Joanie is past its agreed duration. Since she is not bringing it up, I am guessing that it is in her favor, so I renegotiate and get 6gpt and 12g. Hammi has a bunch of gold (105), I take 60 of it for peace for 20 turns.

BT: The russian sword leaves.

1)760AD - Our sword moves to the russian border west of Newcastle and fortifies to make sure the other russian sword does not disturb our lands. Our galleyfinally spots some land, but no borders. Misc Movement.

BT: The russian sword re-enters our land on the other side of the workers guarded by a pike.

2)770AD - Our galley found a fish and some various terrain tiles, but no borders. Misc Movement.

BT: The russian sword stays in out lands, but is still right on the border, so I am no too worried. Besides, we have quite a number of troops in the area, to deal with Cathy.

3)780AD - Our galley keeps exploring.

BT: The russina sword left our lands. I am asked to choose a new government type. I choose Democracy, of course. We loose control of the iron NW of Brighton!

4)790AD - Our galley spots a dark green border, but has not spotted anyone to talk to. I micromanage our cities to maximize shields on any city that is already size 12. I also tried to do a reasonable mix of max food with some shields in the rest of the cities. I also fire all the specialists (tax collectors and scientist) and put them to work, except for Reading's tax collector, because otherwise they would riot.
I also tweak some of the projects being worked on by some of the cities: London's University changed to Bank. Warwick's Cathedral changed to marketplace (also adjusted tiles to maximize shields, because if we add a citizen before the marketplace there will be riots). Brighton's longbow changed to a bank. Reading's granary changed to a settler, so that it can be send to the new world (tax collector this turn changed to entertainer next turn after population expansion). Richmond's granary changed to aquaduct, so that the city can actually expand past size 6. Norwich is building a palace placeholder, I assume for Wallstreet. Science bumped up to 60% to get chemistry in the fewest turns (4) without losing money.
I talk to Cathy and get 2gpt + 18 gold for ROP. I could sell her saltpeter for 5gpt + 66 gold, but I just don't feel comfortable selling her weapon making materials, because she attacked us earlier. Mao gives us 2gpt + 4 gold for renegotiated peace and ROP. I can also sell Mao some saltpeter for 13gpt, but I also am not comfortable selling weapon making materials to him. Am I too paranoid? We can make some good money from these two.

BT: Mao takes advantage of our ROP agreement and a sword into our land between Brighton and Newcastle, with another one close on the border! Russia declares war on China! Dover finishes training a settler and starts a marketplace.

5)800AD - Dover's serttler heads up to Newcastle, hoping that Cathy & Mao make some space for a new city. Our galley sees Detroit. Abe still needs Monotheism, Feudalism, and Engineering, which means he does not have any tech from the middle ages. He has spices and silks. I spend 47 gold to establish an embassy with Abe. Washington far to the north of Detroit, and has 4 (of Abe's 7) spice tiles in its radius. Washington is only a size 4 city. I want Abe's world map. He wants either 178 gold or our map or a tech or contact. I will not give him contact. Will our map be a bad thing to give him? Does it give him too much info about the other civs? Otherwise, the techs are quite old...Monotheism is one step closer to Democracy and lets him build cathedrals. Feudalism lets him train pikemen. Engineering does not get him anything. I work out a negotiation for peace and ROP and our map for his map and his treasury of 3 gold. I figure that I am in no position to attack him for 20 turns and our galley is in his territory so ROP would be a good thing. Abe has 16 cities. His main landmass is full. Buffalo is on an island between the island we found and Abe's main landmass. Note: Buffalo should have been founded one tile to the sw to get access to all three whales. Detroit and St Louis are on the southern island. There is another southern island to the east, but Abe only knows about a bit of the coastline. Now when I go back to the negotiating table with Abe, his spices and silks are tradable! He wants 29gpt! He has a major oversupply with noonelse to trade with and he wants 29gpt. I go back and look at our old techs. I trade Engineering for silks and spices for 20 turns. Is this a bad trade? Everyone else has this tech. I may as well get something good for it.

BT: The chinese sword that was in our lands turns around and attacks a mystery person sw of Chengdu. The sword wins, but is down to 1 health. The other chinese sword on the border goes down and attacks a russian sword on our border. The chinese sword wins, but is down to 1 health. A chinese horse attacks Nottingham! Why would Mao be stupid enough to attack both Cathy and us at the same time? Is he on a suicide mission? And we just renegotiated peace. That !@#$@#%$%$##$%. Our musket is not good enough. We lose Nottingham! They get Leo's Workshop and 9 gold. A Russian horse takes out the wounded chinese sword. Due to all the luxuries we have a lot of we love the trainer day celebrations across the land. Oxford finishes building a caravel and starts a marketplace. Liverpool has disease problems. Cambridge finishes training a worker and starts a library.

6)810AD - Our knight in Newcastle liberates Nottingham, Leo's and 12 gold. The pop of Nottingham has fallen to 11. Mao killed some of our people! I rearrange tiles to get a musket in 3 turns. All the culture building are trashed (temple & library not sure if we had a cathedral). Oxford's caravel takes 2 settlers and a sword toward Detroit. The sword and longbow near Newcastle join a musket from Brighton at Chengdu's horse tile. I figure I want the musket for defense. Unfortunately that leaves Brighton with only one musket and a catapult, but I send a musket from Norwich. I'm not worried about Germany. Brighton's bank is switched to a musket. The other banks in the area are too far along to switch. Our knight in Warwick is sent up north. Our settler stop s in Canterbury. I renegotiate our dyes deal with Cathy to get 6gpt + 6 gold for our dyes. I also trade gems (that used to go to Mao) to Cathy for 3gpt + 60 gold. Cathy will give us 13gpt for an alliance vs the Chinese. But that means 20 turns of war and we do not have much in the way of attacking units. On the otherhand, just because we are at war, does not mean we need to do any attacking. I sign on the dotted line. I also get 8gpt + 6gold + Cathy's world map for saltpeter. If I want her to fight against Mao, I may as well sell her some weapons making material. Bizzi wants some of our horses to join our alliance. I decide against it. Then I look at current deals with Bizzi...I renegotiate peace and ROP for an alliance against Mao.

BT: I don't see any battles. Liverpool has disease again. Leeds finishes a caravel and starts a marketplace to take advantage of our luxuries. Reading finishes a settler (which will go to the Leeds caravel) and starts a musket.

7)820AD - Canterbury's musket (and the settler that stopped there) goes up to Nottingham, so that the knight that freed Nottingham can go on the offensive. Caterbury is far enough away from both our borders that I think it can go a few turns without a defender. Canterbury's bank will be done in 2 turns, then it can work on muskets. A couple of workers finally get to to iron tile near Liverpool, so that we can get iron online soon. Our stack (sword/longbow/musket) moves to right outside Chengdu (to the south). This reveals a wounded russian knight in side the Chinese border between Kiev and Chengdu. Chengdu has a regular pike.

BT: A chinese horse takes out the russian knight that we saw. A chinese galley is seen a couplee tiles out from Cambridge. Our scientists finish researching chemistry and start working on Metallurgy. In order to get it in 4 I have to bump science up to 70%, which costs us 3gpt. I deside to save the money and leave it at 60% with a profit of 55gpt. Hastings finishes a bank and starts a musket. Liverpool finishes a bank and starts a musket.

8)830AD - One of our veteran knights moves next to Chendu, the other attacks Chengdu and takes out the pike while losing all but one hp. He becomes elite in the process. Our regular sword becomes a veteran while taking out a spear. Our longbow cleanup the remaining sword and takes Chengdu and 4 gold. There is one resister. The rest of the population is hired as entertainers. Our musket is sent in for defense. It looks like Kiev is in ruins. By taking Chengdu, we also get 3 incense. I will not trade it yet, because it is not a safe city. If Mao takes it back, it would hurt our reputation to not be able to supply the incense. A settler moves from Nottingham toward Newcastle. Leeds caravel brings a musket and heads out to sea, but next to the shore so that the settler from Reading can hop in next turn. Without ROP, the chinese rider cannot use our roads, so the settler should be safe. I trade territory maps with Cathy, which confirms that Kiev is in ruins.

BT: The chinese rider attacks and kills our sword. Russian workers aproach our border near Exeter. Nottingham finishes a musket and starts a knight. Canterbury finishes a bank and starts a musket. Starvation in Chengdu.

9)840AD - Nottingham's extra musket goes back to Canterbury. Our healthy knight attacks the chinese rider, but fails. Although he does wound the rider a bit. The injured knight follows up and cleans up what is left of the chinese rider, and then rests in Chengdu. Our settler in the area heads toward Chengdu. I am thinking that I could have the settler join Chengdu to jumpstart that city. Otherwise I could collect some muskets and head to where Kiev used to be, but that city would be in very hostle territory all by itself. It would also not be very productive. Now I can bump science up to 70% (and take a turn off Metallurgy by getting it in 3) without losing money. There is actually a 14 gpt profit.

BT: A Chinese rider attacks our musket in Chengdu, and fails. Unfortunately, he retreats before the musket is able to kill him. The German worker heads up toward Heidelburg. Nineveh finishes courthouse and starts a marketplace. Coventry finishes a university and starts a knight. Newcastle finishes a bank and starts a musket. Our people want to build the Wall Street! Maybe we should... Resistance has ended in Chengdu. Starvation brings Chengdu down to a size 2.

10)850AD - Our settler joins the city of Chengdu. Our injured knight finishes off the injured chinese rider and then heads back to rest in Chengdu. I bump science back down to 60% which does not slow down getting Metallurgy, and gets us 83 gpt profit.

prod-shadow-zot-850ad.zip

 

[Sirian]

760AD: Land ho!

770AD: Workers from York mountain move to Norwich mountain.

780AD: Russian swords are moving northward.

790AD: After all that anarchy, Brighton fell behind Chengu on culture! That iron tile has also fallen out of our control. This will have to be rectified. We enter Democracy. America contacted, trade them Feudalism for their map and 1g. Embassy established. Cities micromanaged back to normal. Hmm. The AI's already have researched Gunpowder? That's VERY quick compared to the pace they had not long ago.

800AD: Russia declares war on China. Nottingham swapped to Copernicus. If it loses the race, it can turn into Wall Street. Dover trains settler, starts market. Babs don't have gunpowder yet, so I traded to them at late-civ price for Music Theory and most of their cash.

810AD: Oxford builds caravel, starts market. Leeds builds caravel, starts temple. I screwed up in Reading: forgot to check back to slow the food. The city has grown before the granary was built. I upgraded the last five spears. Science to 50%. Two settlers and a musket loaded aboard southern caravel, sets sail.

Sold saltpeter to both Russia and China, draining them of their treasuries, plus a few gpt. Our gems deal with France could be renewed, but I'll wait until I can combine it into our other deal, for their wines.

820AD: Renewed Dyes deal with Russia, draining their cash again. I remarked to TBC last round about how these AI's are not strong enough to be good customers, but China's in their golden age now, after a Rider victory, and Russia can pay 29gpt for Navigation tech. Hmm.

830AD: Discover Chemistry, start Physics. Science back to 60%. Hastings builds bank, starts uni. Liverpool builds bank, starts uni. Cambridge trains worker, starts another. China is about to discover Banking. They will only offer 14gpt for it, but will offer Iron and 25+ gpt for the other techs. I'm going to have to broker it, but I believe I can wait one turn to do so. And... in this case, even if I am wrong, I will still get the chance to sell to Russia, albeit at a lower price, since Russia and China are at war. Change Brighton to uni.

840AD: Canterbury builds bank, starts uni. Newcastle builds bank, and with 15spt, starts horseman. (We didn't ask to lose control of our iron, nor design, but since we did, might as well train a horse or two in case we need em -- with Leo's the cheap upgrade makes it well worthwhile). Richmond builds granary, starts aqueduct. Brighton has regained the cultural lead in the border struggle with Chengdu. Settler from Dover boards ship with musket escort off the coast of Oxford, and sets sail.

Apparently, I cut it VERY close on the Chinese with Banking. Too close for comfort, perhaps. They will only offer 90g for the tech. Selling now to Russia @2nd, for all they can offer: 32gpt and their cash. I can now sell to China @3rd for 8g (min purchase price), but since they can't buy from Russia, I'll make them spend one more turn of research before they can start their next project. Didn't expect to get into any REAL trading this quickly, but perhaps am I underestimating the Regent AI's a little.

850AD: Ninevah builds courthouse, starts granary. Coventry builds uni, starts horsie. Reading builds granary, starts market. Sverdlovsk flips to us! Starts worker. Unconnected city, so we only get a spearman for free. Bah. Well, I don't suppose I'll complain too loudly. No one else can pay anything worthwhile for Banking yet. Babs have 70g cash but enh. America is making progress on Monotheism, no longer willing to trade 1 lux for it. They will almost trade both lux for Engineering. The rest of the AI's are just one tech away from Navigation, though, and the moment they get it, we need to broker contact before they make contact on their own. (China has a ship off our eastern shore). Since that is coming SOON, I go ahead now and trade America both Monotheism and Engineering for 20 turns of both luxuries. Science to 50%. Our iron is back online, so there won't be any more of the cheap horsemen, but that's OK. Change Birmingham to temple. Sold our current territory map to the continental AI's for a few pennies.


Sirian's Shadow - 850AD


- Sirian

 

[EspyLacopa]

Well, here goes my go at this:

4000 BC: Moved scout to the left, and then down. Moved the settler down-left for a nice spot there. The worker, was set to mining that spot.

3950 BC: Scout moved two up, and the settler founded London. London is set to make another scout.

3900 BC: Scout moved up, and then up-right to get a good view from the mountain.

3850 BC: Scout moved two left.

3800 BC: Scout moved down, then left.

3750 BC: Scout moved left, then down.

3700 BC: Scout2 at London finishes, moved up, then right to grab hut. London starts construction of Granary. Worker finishes the mine, and starts on a road, and Scout1 moves down-right to the hill.

3650 BC: Scout2 moved right, Settler from hut moves right towards the fresh water, and Scout1 moves down.

3600 BC: Scout2 moved right, Scout1 moved down, and Settler builds York, which starts building a worker.

3550 BC: Scout1 moves down, Scout2 moves right, and Worker finishes road, moves down-right

3500 BC: Scout2 moves up, Scout1 moves down, and Worker starts building a mine.

There. . .those are my ten turns, and here is the save file at this time

-EspyLacopa

 

[Sirian]

Hey Espy! How have you been, kid? I hope you have good luck with your training. Gris swears it made all the difference for her. Maybe we'll see you around for some Epics.

- Sirian