PROD - Sirian's Training Day Game

Hotrod: the only benefits to the expansionist civs are a free scout, ability to build scouts, and better "luck" out of goody huts on average. They also start with Pottery, though, so it means they have the ability to build that granary early if they want. I don't always do the early granary if there are food bonuses, but if not, then the city grows too slowly to keep up and a granary is needed, as it takes LONGER to expand without one in those low-food scenerios than it does to keep dropping your city back to size 1 all the time. At size 1, you are only working one tile, so you lose a LOT of shields and commerce over time, relative to a larger city. It also depends on the map size, too. Tiny or small maps, may not be enough land around you to bother waiting on a granary. Large or huge maps, you may want the granary soonish even IF you have food bonuses, as population = power. The more good tiles being worked at your capital over time, the stronger you are going to be and the faster you will grow.


One more point I forgot to mention here:

We are NOT building any ancient wonders, and we are also not doing any ancient military gambits. So don't attack any of our neighbors, don't do any offensive-minded unit buildups, and stick to the general concept of peaceful and rapid expansionism in your game plans. How to do that will be up to you, and whoever is Up, their results count. I won't be offering suggestions or doing any dotmaps for you. Instead, I will critique your results on their own merits.

There are lots of military "experts" around who could show you what to do in regard to ancient conquest or attack gambits, and there are proven wonder building prepacked game plans, but those are not the focus here. The focus here is on improving your ability to strategize, to widen the range of your vision to take in more variables in the formulation of your game plans. I went into great detail this first round because its often the little things or the basics that are taken for granted, where the most room for improvement can be found.


- Sirian
 
Sirian, I don't believe there is a limit to how early a settler can pop from a hut. I got one in 3900 BC in LotR3 (just posted today), which was as early as I could get there. Certainly not a five-turn wait!

Hotrod, expansionist civs save no shields on anything -- not granaries, not settlers, nothing. They get the scout unit, have no fear of barbs in huts, and get double gold for fragging barb huts. That's it. Early benefits only.

10 turns in and more analysis than some games ever see!

One other question, why S and not SE? Just to let the hut pop later? What would happen if you moved SE and built a city, out of curiosity (hut-wise) -- if somebody has time to check, I'd like to know.

Arathorn
 
Originally posted by Sirian

1) Moving away from the goody hut gives a CHANCE to pop a settler out of there, if we wait at least five turns to pop it.

(NOTE: apparently the random number seed was set to pop a settler out of the first hut. In some cases, that came in the desert for other players. Since I had two huts to pop here, and I did the hut next to London first, I got the settler there. I almost bet that if I went back and popped the one in the desert first, IT would have been a settler).

Is there really a greater chance to pop a settler when you wait long enough? Than will it be always worth to move if you start next to a goodie-hut (gh).

Hm i poped the first gh with the building of London but my second one didn't give me a settler too. is there a fixed rng for the gh or does it change with every round ?


Rowain
 
"We are NOT building any ancient wonders, and we are also not doing any ancient military gambits. So don't attack any of our neighbors, don't do any offensive-minded unit buildups, and stick to the general concept of peaceful and rapid expansionism in your game plans. How to do that will be up to you, and whoever is Up, their results count. I won't be offering suggestions or doing any dotmaps for you. Instead, I will critique your results on their own merits."

Do you want us working on our own dotmaps, just so that we can work on our skill with that...or would you prefer that we just not do them?

<chant>If it can wait, it SHOULD wait...If it can wait, it SHOULD wait...If it can wait, it SHOULD wait...If it can wait, it SHOULD wait...If it can wait, it SHOULD wait...</chant>
 
Originally posted by Arathorn
One other question, why S and not SE? Just to let the hut pop later? What would happen if you moved SE and built a city, out of curiosity (hut-wise) -- if somebody has time to check, I'd like to know.

Arathorn

I built London where we started and poped the goodie-hut. I got WarriorCode from it. (and CB from my second gh)

Rowain
 
Originally posted by Rowain deWolf


I built London where we started and poped the goodie-hut. I got WarriorCode from it. (and CB from my second gh)

Rowain

As did I...
 
Arathorn: I'm certain you can't pop a settler out of a hut on the first turn. Not sure about the second. I also believe you can never get a settler (or hostile locals) out of a hut that is popped by founding a city. I've never gotten a settler without having founded at least once city first. Maybe it could be done in 3950, but I'm reasonably confident it can't happen in 4000.

I didn't move south to avoid the hut, though. That was a minor factor, and I just got lucky then to pop a settler out of it later. The main reasons were to have three (instead of two) bonus grass (turned out that didn't matter, but I couldn't see that at the time), to make productive use of low food lands and make more room for another good city, and also to get more shields into the capital post-industrial.


ChrTh: I'm not doing any dotmaps. It's up to you players if you want to do your own. I'll critique them if you do them. Post em to the shadow thread, please. The main thing I intend to avoid is directing your actions up front. I think it will be more helpful to examine the pros and cons of things you decide to do, and the reasoning you put into them, than laying out a roadmap for everybody to follow.


- Sirian
 
Sirian, unless 1.21 has somehow changed this, I am certain that you CAN get a settler out of a hut by founding your first city. I can't remember if I did it in 3950 or in 4000 BC, but I've received a settler from founding Thebes next to a hut before on my 1.17 testing game.
 
We need somebody like Jarulf to get in there and whack the code to bits, decipher the Truth of such things, and let us all know. :) I wonder if Gramphos could find out...
 
C_C's comments bring me back to my question. Moving SE and then settling...what would happen? Nobody knows. It could easily be different than founding immediately. I intend to find out tonight. I'll also probably test waiting one turn and then settling in spot, just out of curiousity.

And moving SE still allows all three shielded grass to be in range (after culture expansion, of course). I would argue it's a better move in that it gets the hut popped earlier, too, just for "earlier is better" mantra, with such things. (Turns out it's an almost equivalent spot. And was at the beginning.)

I'm not a code-whomper, though, so I can't help you there.

Arathorn
 
SE instead of S would not allow York where I put it, or... would increase the overlap. Part of the point of moving at all was to split some of that good land with another city, and redeem some of the rugged land to the south for the distant future.
 
Originally posted by Rowain deWolf


I built London where we started and poped the goodie-hut. I got WarriorCode from it. (and CB from my second gh)

Rowain

I also build London where we started and WarriorCode from the GH. My second GH netted me a settler though:D
 
Sirian,

I believe/am hopeful that I was next on the standby list (replied right after ChrTh) and I've been watching. If Mardoc doesn't chime in I'll be happy to take over.

I also have popped a Settler in the second turn, but never the first turn.
 
I had a trip this weekend from Friday to yesterday, and I anticipated that organization would take much longer, or I would have let you know. In a similar vein, I will be without access to the internet on a different trip from May 15 to May 19. Should I simply start from the current, most recent save, or do the beginning as well, or what? If possible, I'd like to start from the beginning; I think I will easily have enough time. Sorry Mystery, but I'm still interested. :)
 
Mardoc: glad you're with us! Go ahead and play the first turn if you like. Avoid the Shadow Thread for now if you do, because it's plastered end to end with info about the first round. Post there, then read the thread through, then you can move on to the current round. I'll critique your results when I get the chance.

- Sirian
 
ChrTh's Official Turn:

Turn 0 -- 3500
I review the save game, and I can not believe all the Weed Sirian left for me...oh wait, this is my game :blush:
I open up the web to check out Sirian's report to get an idea of what I should do for the next 10 turns. I outline the following goals:
1) Don't get us killed
2) Keep Weed to a minimum

Sirian, if I'm reading you correctly (regarding ancient war), we should only be building defensive units during Ancient Times...so I'll stick to Spearmen (once we get BW).
Other goals:
A) After Tech is researched, change rates; Bronze Working is our next tech to work on
B) I'll build military at a bare minimum (if at all)
C) Expand!

Ok, now to look at the save game:
Hrmmm...I have issues about how I should move the W Scout...I'm thinking I should bring him back closer (especially since the Russians have a Scout as well)...I'll move him West around Moscow(?) and then S and loop him back (if possible). The E Scout already sees water...I think I'll move him S along the coast. When the 3rd Scout is built, I'll send him N.
Worker is mining...London is about to grow...ok, looks good...
I press ENTER...

Turn 1 -- 3450 BC
Ceremonial Burial learned -- BW ordered up...11 turns, hrm...I up science to 100% so it'll be 8 turns (at even Gold).
London expands...both in space and in size. The governor actually made an intelligent choice (the square the Worker is mining). I already have a plan for the Worker: Mine-Road-N-Mine-Road-N-Mine-Road-NE-NE-Road (ending at the dyes)..of course, my turn won't last that long, so feel free to change it.
E Scout finds some nice seaside property...W Scout finds...nothing much.
I press SPACEBAR...

Turn 2 -- 3400 BC
E Scout finds...a mess of gems on the coast! Excellent...I think we have a luxurious Seaside Resort as a possibility.
W Scout uncovers...nothing much.
Worker is still mining...man I hate not being industrious! (I call it "The Argument for Heading Straight for Democracy")
I click on the box...

Turn 3 -- 3350 BC
York produces Scout...I order up a warrior--just in case some barbarians show up. I send the Scout N (thus he shall be called: N Scout). N Scout reveals a Moo-Cow...which York misses. However, it looks like we should be able to build a city on the river that will get Moo-Cow and Game.
I begin to have doubts about turning W Scout S...I think I'll have him head W again.
I press ENTER...

Turn 4 -- 3300 BC
E Scout works his way through some Jungle...We could build a city at the Jungle's edge that would incorporate *4* Gems and 1 Gold (and 2 Shielded Plains)...we could call it Fort Knox.
N Scout reveals...The Germans! DO NOT MENTION THE WAR! Also a Goody Hut...he will investigate.

Turn 5 -- 3250 BC
As a result of N Scout's actions, the Gepid tribe has taught us Warrior Code! Of course, we're not going to be building any Archers, but it helps even us out Tech-wise with the Germans (DON'T MENTION THE WAR!).
E Scout reveals a Goody Hut in the Jungle...will pop next turn.
W Scout just reveals more land.
The Germans haven't contacted me yet, and I don't see any of their people so I can not contact them (in case you were wondering).
I press ENTER...

Turn 6 -- 3200 BC
W Scout reveals...Goody Hut! Will pop next turn.
The Worker has completed the Mine! Unbelievable! I set him building a road.
E Scout pops Goody Hut and...The Huns teach us Masonry! How nice of them.
I click the box.

Turn 7 -- 3150 BC
W Scout pops the Goody Hut...and the Magyars (I think it was the Magyars, it went away)..give us maps of their region. LAME! I forget that this isn't Civ I and reload the game from last turn (JUST KIDDING! :) ). Actually the spot would be nice: either 2 Furs and a Fish or 2 Furs on a river. But since it's roughly 20 turns from our capital, I have a vague suspicion that corruption would be a tad bit on the high side.
I apologize for my E Scout's slowness, but he has found himself in a mountain range.
N Scout sees the Warrior guarding Berlin. I initiate conversation with my distant cousin Otto...The Germans have a larger army (Duh)...but the only Tech they have on us is Bronze Working, which we're 2 turns away from getting.
Dag, I just realized something...I should've been finagling the rates...I lower Science to 80% to get an extra gpt. I'm not sure if it's :smoke:...but it probably qualifies as :spank:!
I press ENTER...

Turn 8 -- 3100 BC
York builds a Warrior..and grows. I order up a worker--but this can be vetoed by the next player. I noticed that the governor of York is stealing a shielded grassland of London's...I'll let it slide since they're not using it...but whomever follows me needs to micromanage it.
I'm not sure what to do with the Warrior...the lazy answer is just fortify him on York...but that doesn't help the Corruption in York (we need to get it connected to London) nor does it give him the ability to protect the worker...I move him one square SW and I'm going to move him then S to be halfway between London and York...we'll be able to see anything two turns away. Of course, if two barbarians show up at the same time...Mayhaps London should build a Spearman when done with the Granary?
I move Science down to 60% to get an extra 2gpt (total +3).
Scouts reveal a little more land, but nothing of note.

Turn 9 -- 3050 BC
Bronze Working is learned, Writing is ordered up: 22 turns at 100%. My long term goal here is Republic...with the restriction on Ancient Wonders and Warfare, we'll need Republic.
Worker finishes Road, moves N. Warrior meets him there.
Scouts reveal some more land. If the Germans have a second city, it's E of Berlin.
I press ENTER...

Turn 10 -- 3000 BC
I SCREW UP! :cry: I accidentally had the Worker build a Road (I meant to build a Mine)...and then I cancelled it, so now he can't do anything this turn! :cry::whipped:
This brings up a good question: would it have been worth it to have him keep building the Road and save the turn, or go to mine and lose a turn?
There is some nice land W of the Germans...as on the Left Coast...where I reveal...a Goody Hut! Next player gets to pop it though.
E Scout finally sees some flat land again.
I save the Game...

Things to do:
Once London grows next turn, you may want to play around with what tiles London and York are using. Worker in York can be changed to something else if you think it should (won't cost any tiles)...but I think we should get York and London (and the dyes) connected.
The Worker should build a Mine (if you start building a road after all I went through in Turn 10, I will :cry: )
London should probably build a Warrior or Spearman when it grows, and then a Settler (or perhaps another Scout before the Settler). I think a city that grabs the Cow and Game (and River) (W of York) from the start (i.e. without expanding) is the best bet, unless it screws up a potential dotmap.

Question of the Turn: Where are the other Civs?

Next post will have save and map.
 
Here is the map:
prod3500.jpg


The Red 'Dot' is where I think a great city could be built; it's next to a River, a Cow, a Game, and a Shielded Plain. However, it's obviously the next (or subsequent player's) call --- WAIT, scratch that, it's a lousy spot as it would steal too many tiles from York. We'll have to see what's in the blackness nearby before we decide for sure.

Here's the save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/prod-english-3000bc.zip

Sirian, if that ain't the right game, let me know, I had a little issue uploading.
 
Sirian, if I'm reading you correctly (regarding ancient war), we should only be building defensive units during Ancient Times...so I'll stick to Spearmen (once we get BW).

As counterintuitive as it may seem, on Deity, there's no time to wait around on spears. If early war is needed vs a next door neighbor, there may not be time to wait around on swords even if you have the tech! 30 per instead of 20 per for archers, sometimes what you need most is raw numbers asap! Even warriors can sometimes suffice, depending on the enemy, and that's FOR WAR.

For military policing duty, exploration, and so on, warriors are often the best. Why? Because they are so cheap. Certainly this varies game by game, but the idea of "perfecting each unit built" does not hold as much water in reality as it might seem.

On lower difficulty you can get away with more, though, including making the idea of "building only vet units" or "building only upgradable units" work out.

Two things to keep in mind.

1) The AI doesn't count unit strength, it counts total units. It sees a warrior and a tank as THE SAME in its calculations about whether or not to be aggressive toward you. Thus, a civ with a lot of workers (which count as units) and cheap, even regular warriors, is LESS likely to be threatened and/or surprise attacked than a civ with more REAL military power, locked into fewer, leaner troops. The unfortunate part of this is that unit upkeep costs run higher for keeping more units around, but the more I move toward building more and cheaper units ASAP, the less ugly scrapes I seem to be getting into during the course of my games, WHEN my goal is peaceful early expansion. (For military game plan, this clearly won't work out. You need to build effective units for combat). The weak unit deal works sort of on the principle of the dogs who bark loudest get messed with the least by the other dogs. Ridiculous, perhaps, but there can be no doubt that it works.

2) There is no difference in the value of military units for quelling unhappy population via Military Policing (under governments that allow it), quelling resisters in captured cities, and serving as units to reduce flip chances in pressured cities. Since virtually ALL civs in any game plan will run up against some or all of these needs, at times when ANY warm body of units is as good as any other, it actually pays off for almost any civ not only to build a bunch of cheap, early, "militarily useless" regular and/or weak units, but even to KEEP THEM AROUND FOR THE WHOLE GAME, as there will inevitably be situations where it's enormously beneficial to plop a bunch of units into a city, for MP duty, for quelling resisters, or for protecting against culture flip. If you DON'T have any "useless" units around for these duties, you will have to tie up expensive, modern units for these "desk jobs".

I hate to disagree with old stalwart LKendter, but I've come to the conclusion that his passionate dislike of nonvet and weak units is one of his biggest limitations in moving to higher difficulty. I now not only allow myself to build some crap units, but do so repeatedly and intentionally as part of a grander scheme.


Now how that fits into the current Training SG is debateable. THESE AI's have no bonuses or advantages whatsoever, and won't pose the kind of threats around which my strats are based. Building spears (and vet ones) might well be even the best move here on Regent, to keep the economy lean by not supporting those "throwaway" units. On Deity, though, such a strat would qualify as :smoke: in my view. Since we're not aiming here at turning you all into Deity players, and have set more modest goals, I will do my best not to overjudge your moves based on how they would or would not fly on Deity. That's too harsh a standard, and so not appropriate. But I may, as now, interject some comments in that direction, just to let you know. And my critiques may not agree with those from other "veteran" players, since some of the things I do, or would do in solo games where I'm in complete control of everything and can thus take more risks, would be labeled :weed: by them for certain. :lol:


3500BC: Excellent planning of overall scout movements. In my own turn, I came to exactly the same conclusions for all three scouts, though I turned the Russian scout south immediately, without first going around Moscow. That's a judgement call, though. The main thing is that you decided to check on territory closer to home with that scout, to fill in, what for everybody else, remained a fog area. :goodjob:

3400BC: Hehe. That's why I chose English, to force all of you off any dependencies you may have formed on the "best" civ traits, religious, industrious, militaristic, scientific (in that order, IMHO). Note that this would make Egypt the strongest overall civ (IMO) not accounting for the UU's. Although maybe now you'll depend on scouts and no hostile goody huts, along with more commerce in all your cities! Haha! Well, that can't be helped. You should be able to adapt without scouts, I should think.

3350BC: Haha! You vetoed your own excellent idea of turning that W Scout south! Too bad. :) You were on your way to extra praise for your scouting until then, although you'll still get one thumbs up for it.

3150BC: York finishes warrior? That's good. I did the worker first, but it's OK to get the military out there. Having at least ONE unit is a good idea in any game with Barbarians turned on. However...

York builds a Warrior..and grows. I order up a worker--but this can be vetoed by the next player.
Only if they want to add to their weed count! Haha!

As you can see throughout my critiques in the shadow thread, pretty much anything other than warrior/worker or worker/warrior up at York, after that first scout, got the weed judgement. I explained why in all the shadow critiques, but in a nutshell it boils down to the specifics of what tiles are available to York. It NEEDS to train a worker early to start improving those tiles! That you waited until after the warrior is OK, although in my game I deemed that the warrior could wait, and did the worker first. Still, you're the only player this round who dialed up the "best" combination of worker and warrior next at York, and that's worth some celebration (just don't get drunk while you're Up!)

Also thumbs up for noting to "next player" that York has possession of a tile it cannot be allowed to keep. Good job both noticing and mentioning it.

You're mistaken about getting York connected to London, that won't help its corruption at all. Corruption is a factor of distance from Palace (or FP) in combination with number of cities owned. All the warrior can do is to serve as Military Police (which would be needed in London soon) or as defense. As defense, your idea of keeping him "between cities" is unusual, and could backfire in not being able to get to where needed until the road is built, but even once the roads connect the cities, you'd have to CROSS A RIVER to get into either city, and that would leave you unable to fortify.

In this case, I think it would be best just to fortify in York, or else to go to London and fortify there to serve as MP. Either leaves one city exposed, but in THIS sitation, staying in the middle leaves both exposed, which would be worse. Without the rivers to have to cross, your idea would be more effective.

Should London build a spearman when done with the granary? I would definitely not. IF the third mine was done already, it would be seven shields per turn and done in three turns, worth doing! Since the mine is not done, a spear would be done in four turns with four shields wasted and warrior would be done in two turns but waste two shields. The settler could be done in five turns with no shield waste, AND still leaving the city at size 2 in the bargain, which would be ideal at 5 shields per turn for any kind of troop you like, AFTER the settler is done. Only cost vs the spearman is one extra turn of luxuries. One gold! Ha, that's not worth delaying city #3 by several turns, don't you think?

3000BC: Hit the wrong button? That's the one time when (IMO) it would be OK to reload from the autosave. This is the rule in the GOTM event, and something I do regularly when I botch my controls (as opposed to my game plan). This is not at all a problem if no military action happened on the turn. If the random seed is preserved (the new patch has the option not to save it in the save file, so it could change on reloading) then even if a small amount of military action took place, you could duplicate it EXACTLY and get the exact same results, so even then it wouldn't matter. However, if tons and tons of action took place, or more than you are 100% certain you could duplicate, or if the random seed is turned off, then you should eat the mistake. Make sense? Same if you think too much has been done and it's not worth your time to redo X amount of already-finished turn to undo one mistake. THIS early, that's almost surely not a problem, so it would actually have been OK (IMHO) to reload and redo that worker turn. And yes, for the record, at times I've redone as much as five minutes of game play to straighten out a button misclick (most often happens when handling a stack of workers and either the game surprisingly and unintuitively "jumps" to one not in the stack, or I miscount and issue too many orders).

Since you did not redo it, let it go this time. We'll eat the lost worker-turn. But just FYI, if I had done that and was not reloading to redo it (for whatever reasons), yes I would let the worker finish the road first rather than waste a turn (and delay ALL his future projects by one turn!) just to mine first. The mine first isn't quite that urgent.

I don't like your red dot location. It's too close to York, and there ARE other tiles with fresh water access further downriver. I won't suggest which I think best, and especially not since somehow you skipped revealing some KEY tiles in the home region before sending your scouts out. However, that tile with the red dot is surely not the best site for the next city.

I think RBD13 is the thread with my explanation about how to do a good dot map, what the factors and priorities are. That info would explain why I think your choice is not best in this situation.

Finally, yes, you too missed out on the London Growth vs Granary Completion problem. Fortunately for our official game here, that problem CAN be corrected by next player Up, if they understand what to do about it.


Overall Grade: C+

:goodjob: count: Four. (Scouting, Research, Analysis, York management)
:smoke: count: Four. (Inefficient dotmap, iffy suggestions to next player about several things, parking military where it can defend neither city, London growth mismanagement)


- Sirian


PS: the next round is now open. Play and post as appropriate, and Mardoc can skip the 3000BC shadow turn, as he did not get his game in on time for this round. Hope you all are having fun and learning useful bits. The game marches on!
 
One thing...

You're mistaken about getting York connected to London, that won't help its corruption at all. Corruption is a factor of distance from Palace (or FP) in combination with number of cities owned.
I think that YOU are the one mistaken this time, Sirian. I can't invoke the specific post, but it has been demonstrated at some point on the general discussion board that connection to the capital is a 10% corruption reduction, though it often isn't significant enough to justify connecting the road JUST for that benefit. If you change the shield/gold values for all tiles to some ridiculously high number (like 20) in the editor it is much easier to notice.

Oh, I did have a 4000 BC save from my 1.17f testing game with the two settlers early on. it turns out I didn't get that second settler by founding Thebes after all, but by moving the worker into the hut before founding Thebes (I moved the settler first turn and my 4000 BC save came at the end of the turn because I had forgotten to save at the beginning). I'll post my screenshot in the shadow thread.
 
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