PROD - Sirian's Training Day Game

Black Cursor and Rowain added.

Architect: I'll put you on the standby list. The one week period is to give those who would like a chance at something like this, who have not gotten involved in the other TDG's, a chance to find out about it before it's already filled up. Whether part of the official rotation or not, anybody can download the games and play along.


ChrTh: aiming at particular wonders can be highly successful, but I'm planning for us to build none of the ancient wonders, and perhaps no wonders at all (depends on how things develop). Why? Because wonders are harder to get at the higher difficulty levels, may not be on the table as an option or may be too costly to pursue, relative to other goals. It's a bad habit for players to get in to to think they "need" this, that, or the other wonder. I've won on deity without building or trying to build any of the ancient or midieval wonders, and the skills I used to achieve that would be far more valuable to pass on to you than the particulars of wonder-building gambits that just won't work out in every situation. This game will be less about designing or following strategic blueprints than it will be about mastering the finer points that can be applied to any game plan.


- Sirian
 
Cy, you old dog. :) I've given up on teaching you any new tricks! :crazyeye:

Well, at least for the moment. Down the line... I have some Big Plans. :satan:

:lol:


- Sirian
 
No critiquing of other player's results, except by me.

Fair enough, Sirian. Is that a hard and fast rule for all of us out here in the peanut gallery, too? Or is that a rule simply for all the players in the game?

I can see both sides:

Comments just from you:
- Consistent message
- Easy-to-find comments
- Very high time commitment for you
- Limited viewpoint

Comments from all:
- Lots of different ideas (which is good and bad. Good in that it provides a variety of ideas and competing notions can play off of each other. Bad in that it can easily be overwhelming and confusing.)
- Harder to find comments
- Varying quality of comments (certain threads have suggested improvements which are, of themselves, rather :smoke: , IMO)

I just want to know what you have in mind, so I don't "open mouth, insert foot" more than I have to!

Arathorn

P.S. Mind if I "steal" the idea and run an Emperor game with a very similar set-up?
 
Oh, I understand that Sirian; I didn't expect you to follow that strategy...I was just trying to demonstrate to the naysayers that the English can be useful :)
 
Arathorn: Regarding critiques, it's only a rule for the participants. I can't control the peanut gallery anyway. However, I would prefer that veteran observers stick to observing so I can stay on message and away from competing priorities -- especially since there may be times when the focus shifts away from "winning" and on to some particular point or goal or exercise for practice purposes.

As for running your own game of this, it wasn't my idea to begin with. I don't see any reason why you shouldn't, if you want to.


- Sirian
 
I have been reading the RBD games for quite awhile, and (hopefully) learned quite a bit. I have not played a SG. I have played a number of Civ3 games, but mostly at warlord, and I have been wanting to step up. So I think I will kill two birds with one stone. Hopefully not too much :smoke: from me.
 
Originally posted by Sirian
In order to qualify for this game, you must meet the following conditions:

* Rookie SG Player - zero SG experience probably, or at most no more than two SG's played (with unencouraging results).

* Rookie Civ III Player - never tried to play anything higher than Regent, or tried and failed at Regent or higher. (This is for those of you out there who are lost, struggling, and maybe a little scared of embarrassment, but would like to get involved and will step up and put your best effort forward, not only in the game but in your reports and in dealing with the analysis you get).

* You have time to devote to this. (You'll have just one day when you come Up to acknowledge your turn and begin to play. You have to play when you're Up. The more you play and the more you put into your reports, the more you'll get out of it).

* You believe you can see it through to the end.
1) I am playing in BrianJ's B3-Literary English, and Kefka's (currently stagnant) Random SG. I am also playing in ZedF's thread of ChrTh's Training Day. I guess I'm reasonably a rookie.

2) I haven't tried anything higher than Regent, because I still haven't beaten Regent. I can come close, but if I don't get totally whupped on, another civ always manages to beat me, either with a spaceship, culture, or histograph.

3) I knew there was a catch! :D Unfortunately, I cannot guarantee the time necessary to really follow this. :( RL has a way of intruding at very inopportune times. I am actually close to maxxed out on the time I can spend on SGs now.

Oh, well, I definitely WILL lurk, and download some games to play and compare how I do. I try to follow the RBD games, because I feel Sirian and Arathorn in particular are two of best SG-ers here, and if they are willing to teach us lower masses, I will hang on every word. :D
 
I have played a couple open games for a few turns and the latest Babs. SG with Rowain, and Lee but that is it. I am looking forward to some true and honest criticism to improve my GOTM or other games.

Hotrod.
 
Hotrod's in.


I've patched, created the game, played my version of the first ten turns, and written the report. Some things occurred to me.

* We're going to have some blurred results because of players finding out things in their versions of the game when they explore in different directions and do different things. This will lead to foreknowledge of some game data that would not be accessible in a normal game. This is unavoidable here, but I ask that players give thought to this and make whatever effort they deem appropriate to base their decisions on what is known in the Official Game. Don't bend over backward, just... pay attention. We are aiming here more at learning than winning, but you don't want to get used to having bonus information.

* We're going to have lots of confusion about this, and also more "contamination" from "alternate timelines" if I try to run everything in this thread. Therefore, I have concluded that I should run ONLY the Official Game in this thread, and open a shadow thread for everything else.

* This thread is for the Official Game. What shall be posted here is the reports and results of the player who is Up on each turn, along with my critique and any questions and answers players have in regard to those results.

* The PROD Shadow thread will handle everything else, including the turn reports of all players not Up on that turn, all critiques of these reports, and even my own reports from my shadow turns.

* Players who are UP should avoid reading any further in the shadow thread once others start posting shadow reports from the same turn. IE, it's OK to refer back to the shadow thread as a reference, but I ask that you not do so when you're Up, especially in regard to finding out what others have done on the turn you're about to play, so that your official turn results will be as "pure" as you can manage under these conditions. (Make sense? Any questions?)


The Roster is now set. We had five new players sign up, leaving one slot for an Alternate. That will go to ChrTh, since it was his idea and he was also the first Alternate, too. Other Alternates can play from the shadows, and if there are any drop outs, you may still get a shot at official participation in future. Any new players coming along now... the train has left the station, but you are welcome to shadow the game.

I'll post instructions for dealing with uploading saves and image files in the Shadow thread.

For this first round, I intend to give you all a chance to play without any input from me, then I'll post my turn results and report and offer my critiques, once all the players have posted or the four day limit approaches.

I do NOT intend to run this game like a typical SG, playing traffic cop with drawing up plans and making suggestions, aiming for a team win. I don't even care whether we win or not, though of course I am sure we will. Rather, this will be a bit of sink or swim, with me saying little or nothing in advance, and then commenting on the results. Usually there are many ways to do things successfully in this game, so I'm not here to crank out carbon copies of my gameplay, but to offer insights into what's strong or weak, risky, secure, uninformed or just plain weedy, about your decisions. IE, help teach you how to strategize, not what to think.


Here's the opening game file. Play ten turns (stop before clicking Next Turn in the year 3500BC) and then write up as detailed a report of everything you did as you can manage, to be posted in the Shadow thread. Might be a good idea to note everything that you do. These first few rounds, that won't be too painful. Later on, it will get to be too much and we'll all have to cut back on the detail, but for now, try to note EVERY move or decision you make, and what your thinking is behind the bigger decisions.

PROD - English, 4000BC - Let the Games Begin


- Sirian
 
Originally posted by Sirian
I do NOT intend to run this game like a typical SG, playing traffic cop with drawing up plans and making suggestions, aiming for a team win. I don't even care whether we win or not, though of course I am sure we will. Rather, this will be a bit of sink or swim, with me saying little or nothing in advance, and then commenting on the results. Usually there are many ways to do things successfully in this game, so I'm not here to crank out carbon copies of my gameplay, but to offer insights into what's strong or weak, risky, secure, uninformed or just plain weedy, about your decisions. IE, help teach you how to strategize, not what to think.

My ears are burning, did someone say my name? :flamedevi
 
More than two days have passed since I posted the original save file. Four players have played and posted shadow turns, which is great. However, the other two have not yet, and this does not bode well for them down the road, if the first round, the absolute shortest in the game, takes them up against the four day time limit to play and post a report.

I'm only going to wait one more day at most, I think, before offering my critiques for this round and posting my result. I'd like to be inclusive of everybody who signed up, but I'm planning to stick to the deadlines I've chosen and keep the game moving, too.

- Sirian
 
Sirian: I don't think ChrTh knows he is in. He is playing the Arathorn Emperor training game and posted something to the effect that he was put on hold for this game.
Originally posted by ChrTh
Arathorn, I'd be interested in playing, simply because I'm 0-fer on Monarch level and want to improve my game immensely. However, Sirian callously rejected me because I'm doing a TDG...are you going to exclude the TDG players as well?
I noticed he is on the play list and has not as yet posted a reply on the "alternate timeline" or shadow thread for the Prod. game. As far as the others I know Rowain, Zot and Black Cursor have already posted.

Thanks, looking forward to getting started with your reviews and your "official" game post.

Hotrod.
 
Ack, I'm in! Sorry, Sirian, I never caught that.

I'll play my shadow turn tonight...I may be up late!
 
With an Expansionist civ, always move the scout before founding the first city. You may learn vital information that could impact your choice of what to do with that first settler.

4000BC: First thing to do, check Preferences, click Always Wait at End of Turn on, then toggle other options as I want them. Then I save the game. This is the point from which everybody plays the first turn.

I move the scout west onto the plains, then south from there onto the hill, to have a good look around. (Hills and mountains allow you to see two tiles away, unless some rugged terrain blocks part of your view). I spot dyes to the west, and jungles.

Peeking under all the fog, I see mountains and hills to the south, forest to the east. In the screen below, there are clearly forest all along the river, under the orange X's. Grassland under the green X, no idea if it has a shield or not. Hills under the white X's and mountains under the purple. That's all I can see. The forests along the river are all on top of base grass tiles, so if the forests are chopped down those would all become grassland, no idea if they would have bonus or not.

prod-4000bc-1.jpg


Rather than use up one of the grassland tiles by founding where we started, I think it would be better to move south, across the river, onto a hill tile. This will leave three bonus grassland open for growing to a very strong size 3 with three mined tiles each bringing 2 shields per turn. If we found on the starting tile, we would only have two bonus grassland to work, plus whatever that one to the north is, and whatever is under all the forests. Staying put would be a good option, but once we hit size 3 we'll be a less productive city unless that grass to the north has a shield on it. I think we will IMPROVE our net growth curve by spending a turn now to get early access to one extra bonus grassland tile. This is high level city planning, but it's part of my thought process: a city with more Good Tiles nearby would not have this concern -- meaning I'd probably not spend a turn to move, just to preserve one good tile.

But there is also a longer term plan to consider. No city ever needs more than enough food to grow to about size 22. Up to then, good, after that, it goes to waste (except adding a tiny bit to scoring). If we found where we are, we have a couple hills, a mountain, and lots of grass under the forests along the river. High Food city. If we move south, we will give up the eight tiles marked below in red in exchange for the eight marked in light blue.

prod-4000bc-2.jpg


This means, ultimately, trading a hill, two plains and five grass, for two hills, two mountains, two plains, one grass and one unknown tile (which is probably another hill or mountain). This means, long term, trading food for shields (but still enough total food), PLUS what looks like also the short term benefit of one extra bonus grassland. (That turned out not to be the case, the grass under the green X is a bonus, but I didn't know that yet. And I had to decide on what I could see).

There are four other minor factors in favor of the south location. 1) Moving away from the goody hut gives a CHANCE to pop a settler out of there, if we wait at least five turns to pop it. 2) Moving onto a hill provides a defensive bonus for our capital. 3) There is an oh so slight chance of Iron Works by bringing more hill and mountain tiles into range. (Imagine the agony if that were possible and we miss it by that much!) 4) By giving up some food from the capital, we make more room for another strong city just to our north, by redeeming what looks to be otherwise wasted hills mountains to the south.

For all these reasons, I thought about this and considered all of this in about 80 seconds of examining the terrain, and moved the settler south onto the hill.

Unfortunately, there are no food bonuses in sight. No wheat, no cattle, and no flood plains. This means that a granary will be more important, and the sooner the better, because city growth will be slower. Without any wheat or cattle, it's just too slow to go without a granary. Either we spend too much time at size 1 and 2, with VERY low production and research, or we build fewer settlers. Both of those are bad. So with no food bonuses, the time to build the granary is after there is a second city on the board.

I move the settler south across the river. The worker is standing on the original tile, which is bonus grassland. I start a mine, it will be done in 6 turns.


3950BC: London is founded. I immediately veto the governor's tile selection in favor of the grassland where our worker is digging. (It would be a mistake not to do this, only to miss out on the improvements the worker is doing for a while. The city governor would assign the next new population unit to the worked tile, but not until the city grows. Don't wait, get in there and take care of it yourself!)

First order of business after founding the capital is always to turn science to 100%, in the F1 screen, then click F6 and select a research path. I usually prefer to research Ceremonial Burial first, unless playing a religious civ. This is because its one of the two cheapest techs (Pottery is the other) and because building temples early is often part of my game plan. (Maybe the new patch will slow that a bit, since the whip now yields only 20 shields, instead of up to 39, for the first population worked to death).

Inside London, I opt to produce a scout unit for additional rapid exploring. With this civ, I would do so even on Deity.

I move the scout two tiles west onto the dyes. Not the best results, but I see the delta of a river, so the coast is one more tile away. Always good to reach a coast and open up a wide view of the water and the shore.


3900BC: Scout moves west onto a hill, opens up the coast. A fish is spotted, and more jungles.

3850BC: Scout can move north into jungle or south toward mountains. I opt to go north. Some grasslands spotted, so that was a good choice.

3800BC: I move our scout north again. He locates a wheat and more shoreline to the west. I move west onto the wheat, and more shoreline opens up. A hill is spotted in the distant north, looks like a good destination for the scout, possibly to scout several turns' worth of land on one turn.

3750BC: I move our scout two tiles northward. (Note that I am mostly moving diagonally to maximize scouted area per turn, and heading for high ground where possible, with the second move of the scout when that's possible). The hill opens up lots of land to our curious eyes: grass, some desert north of the hill, an incense up there, a game forest to the east (between the scout and London). And a goody hut next to the hill!

3700BC: London produces a second scout. Time to pop that goody hut we started next to. I move our scout there and we get... a settler!! (I don't think you can get a settler out of hut on the first couple of turns, so good thing that I waited!)

prod-3700bc.jpg


I tell the settler to Wait (W-key) as I am going to postpone deciding what to do with him until the end of this turn. (NOTE: apparently the random number seed was set to pop a settler out of the first hut. In some cases, that came in the desert for other players. Since I had two huts to pop here, and I did the hut next to London first, I got the settler there. I almost bet that if I went back and popped the one in the desert first, IT would have been a settler).

Our worker is done mining. It's never good to move a worker off a tile with no road if you can help it. So the next thing to do is to build a road. This will also help by further improving the Good Tiles around London. (Good Tiles are the "best" tiles in reach of your city, that you will choose to work with your population. Preferably, you want your workers to keep up with or stay ahead of population in terms of improving the land. The TOP priority for workers at the very start of the game is to identify the Good Tiles for your core cities and improve them. Roads to connect cities to one another and to resources are important, but first improve the land a little bit). Improve the very best tiles first. In this case, the bonus grass on the river are our best tiles, and we should finish improving the first one before moving to the other one.

Our western scout pops the other goody hut and we find 25 gold. I move him west from there.

London's next project? If this were Emperor or Deity level, we would need a military police unit before growing to size 2 or we'd have to spend some of our trade on luxuries already. At Monarch or lower, I would either push for another scout or start a settler. The settler would be a BAD choice for this map, since it would be done training before there was enough food to grow to size 3. To build a settler this early, we would have needed food bonuses (irrigating the wheat or cattle would have been the first task for our worker if we'd had any close by). So... normally (Emperor/Deity, and needing a military police unit to keep the peace) I'd build a warrior now, or on Monarch or lower with an expansionist civ like this, I'd build a third scout.

However... in this special case, we got a free settler! And remember that I said to build the granary once we had a second city? We're about to get that second city already. The sooner we get a granary, the better. (If going for Pyramids, you'd skip the granary and go right for the wonder. We're not doing any ancient wonders, though. We're working on the basics). It would be a tiny bit risky to go right for the granary with no military units around yet, but... we can let the second city build military units for us! The granary can take the place of food bonuses and allow us to build a lot more new settlers more quickly. The faster you expand in the very earliest parts of the game (cutting corners on defense, but only for the first 20 to 30 turns or so) the more powerful you will be later.

The biggest mistake most new players make is dillydallying to build stuff that can wait until later, instead of founding new cities quickly.

If it can wait, it SHOULD wait. Chant that over and over in your head. Focus on things that of immediate benefit to your exploration or expansion or productivity, and postpone defense matters until the first 1000 years (at least) are done. Even if another civ is right on top of you, it's almost always better to build regular warriors and hurry along your settlers or granaries or the building of more workers, than to build defense. If barbarians are set to high levels, they actually pose the only early threat to you unless you have a city RIGHT next to an enemy capital (like we ended up with in RBD2). The only reason to bolster military in the first millenium is to pursue a gambit involving an immediate attack. We won't be doing that in this game.


3650BC: I tell our settler and scout near London to Wait. (Don't let the game's automatic selection of pieces and units dictate how you play your turn. Make units that could benefit from more information wait until other units move first). I move the western scout north, spot hills in that direction, then turn west, where I spot more hills, more desert, and three more incense.

Our scout near London moves east, and yes, that coastal tile is a small inland lake.

Our settler moves north across the river. He spots another source of dyes above him, and a mountain. Hmm, the river we are on is NOT the same river that goes to the west. This means that to found our second city on fresh water, there will have to be two tiles of overlap with London. Well, that's OK. The fresh water is much more urgent. As a bonus, we'll be founding on a jungle tile, which is auto-cleared when you build the city. (A low priority concern, but still worth noting).


3600BC: York founded, three tiles north of London, on a river, next to a dye. I start a scout there, since we still seem to have a lot of land left to explore. There will be time available to veto this decision later, if circumstances lead us to believe we should build warriors instead. (Note, also, that the granary in London could also still be vetoed if a more urgent need came up -- not bloodly likely, but possible).

Our western scout moves west, then northwest onto a hill. He has spotted gold deposits, another river and a wheat tile. He's now quite far from home, though.

Our eastern scout moved east one tile. Another river spotted in that direction (at least four rivers in our area).

3550BC: Our worker is done building the road. I move him one to the SW, onto the other bonus grass tile that is on the river. Remember: improve the Good Tiles at your capital first, then worry about other stuff. (It might be a good idea to build another worker soon, out of York, since our first worker is going to be busy at London for a while. Build one scout OR warrior first, then a worker, which would be done at the same time the city grows to size 2 -- getting that bonus grassland at York mined and a second worker to improve the land more quickly and maybe even get the dye online, would help a lot).

Our eastern scout moved east again, this time onto a hill, finally spots some open land where he can move faster. Our west scout moves SW then west onto a hill, and he spots a brown cultural border. We have found the Russians, they are to our west.

This is the point of no return with the granary. At this point, I could still veto and swap to a warrior or another scout, or ever a worker (though that would waste one turn of shields). I've seen nothing to make me fear for London's safety as yet (and even if an AI did wander by, they don't tend to violate your borders quite this early). So I affirm the granary.

(Report continues in next post, since there is an absurd 15000 characters-per-post arbitrary limit on this forum. :p )
 
3500BC: Our worker starts mining again.

Our eastern scout moves NE, then east, he's out in the open, in desert terrain.

Western scout moves south, then SW, onto a hill overlooking Moscow. Contact made. Russia has Bronze Working, so that will be our next research project. It's cheaper to research tech that other civs (that you're in contact with) already know. Plus, that's a good choice anyway, so we can build spearmen.

Finally, we're going to make a tech breakthrough next turn, so I turn science down to 80% to save 1 gold and still get the tech anyway. This is a micromanagement move, NOT a permanent change. Better off to leave science at 100% and forsake that free gold, than to forget to turn science back up to 100%. May seem like a lot of work for 1 gold, and yes, it probably won't matter -- but these kind of moves add up over time, so you either get into a mindset where you embrace them... or you will impose a glass ceiling on yourself, in that you won't be able to push that extra little bit in tough situations. On Deity in particular, you are so heavily disadvantaged that you have to take every little scrap of savings you can get, to climb out of the hole.

Russia is fairly far away. I think we're still good with no military yet, for a little longer, but I'm a risk taker in that regard. The scout at York could be changed to a warrior if the next player is nervous about defense.

So far so good. That settler out of the hut was lucky, but sometimes its better to be lucky than good. :)


- Sirian
 
ROSTER:

Sirian
ChrTh
Black Cursor
Rowain deWolf
Zot
Hotrod0823
Mardoc


Since Mardoc either has not realized the game has started yet, or is having troubles in some other regard, and did not get a shadow turn posted yet or acknowledge that he's still with us, I am moving him to the end of the roster and moving ChrTh up into the hot seat.

ChrTh: play and post your report here. Everyone else should grab the save from my results in the last round and play and post to the shadow thread.

Any questions about my results (since I was Up this turn) should be posted here. Everything else, including suggestions for strategy, questions about shadow turns, or any dotmaps or other offerings you want to make, should go in the shadow thread.

I hope that Mardoc is still with us, but if his turn comes up again and we haven't heard from him, he'll be dropped off the roster and we'll grab the next Standby player to take his spot.


PROD - English - 3500BC Official Timeline


- Sirian
 
Yikes! Didn't expect to be up so soon! :)

I'll being playing the turn (and posting) tomorrow night, and I'll stay out of the Shadow Thread until then.

<chant>If it can wait, it SHOULD wait...If it can wait, it SHOULD wait...If it can wait, it SHOULD wait...If it can wait, it SHOULD wait...If it can wait, it SHOULD wait...</chant>
 
Wow a granery this soon. I see the logic behind that but I would never have thought to do it. Are the graneries cheaper for expanstionist civs?

Hotrod
 
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