Prohibition

[NickyJ]

So the qualification for big time successful gangster is...you have a gang, and you engage in violent acts against another gang. Yes, surely no one in American history accomplished this before the 1920s!

They accomplished it before then. But not so many gangs at one time. Before the Prohibition, it was in small isolated incidents. During the Prohibition, it was all across the country at one time.

 

[ParkCungHee]

So now the issue isn't that Prohibition brought the "rise" of organized crime or saw it get "really rolling" but saw organized crime splinter and fracture into a larger number of factions.
This seems to be suggesting that Prohibition resulted in a weakening of organized crime.

 

[NickyJ]

So now the issue isn't that Prohibition brought the "rise" of organized crime or saw it get "really rolling" but saw organized crime splinter and fracture into a larger number of factions.
This seems to be suggesting that Prohibition resulted in a weakening of organized crime.

Are you serious? It wasn't groups splintering. It was new people creating new big groups that were bigger than those per-Prohibition.

 

[NovaKart]

I think the issue here is how did these people profit from prohibition? Did it help organized crime in a very significant way?

 

[Virote_Considon]

Those were just small-timers. They were pipsqueaks compared to Al Capone, Frank Nitti, John Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, Albert Anastasia, Lucky Luciano, Bill Dwyer, Bugsy Siegel, Frank Costello, Bugs Moran, and Dutch Schultz, to name only a few. Organized crime really got rolling in the Prohibition.

Tell me how these people from your list specifically were any more "big-time" than those before the 1920's, as opposed to regular (if fairly romanticized) outlaws:
John Dillinger
Bonnie and Clyde

I mean, were they and their "gangs" really that more organized and criminologically significant than, say Jesse James et al?

 

[NickyJ]

I think the issue here is how did these people profit from prohibition? Did it help organized crime in a very significant way?

Well, I think it helped organized crime become more prominent. While booze running is gone now, major organized crime still exists in the form of drug cartels.

Tell me how these people from your list specifically were any more "big-time" than those before the 1920's, as opposed to regular (if fairly romanticized) outlaws:
John Dillinger
Bonnie and Clyde

I mean, were they and their "gangs" really that more organized and criminologically significant than, say Jesse James et al?

No, they weren't bigger than Jesse James. However, they and the others I listed all rose up at the same time.

 

[Virote_Considon]

And is the implication that they were somehow linked with the others? Because they were not linked in any significant sense.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Are you serious? It wasn't groups splintering. It was new people creating new big groups that were bigger than those per-Prohibition.

Okay, now we're getting into something you'll have to quantify. These groups were "bigger". So I'm going to ask for comparison, how many regiments did it take to put a stop to this scrap between Al Capone and Mr. Moran?

No, they weren't bigger than Jesse James.

Which would put their organization at less then a dozen people. Then I can definitely say your understanding of the size of criminal enterprises in American history is wrong.

 

[NickyJ]

Okay, now we're getting into something you'll have to quantify. These groups were "bigger". So I'm going to ask for comparison, how many regiments did it take to put a stop to this scrap between Al Capone and Mr. Moran?

It didn't take regiments. It took an income tax evasion rap. Being in jail tends to make it kind of hard to engage in warfare.

Which would put their organization at less then a dozen people. Then I can definitely say your understanding of the size of criminal enterprises in American history is wrong.

Forgive me, I thought Jesse James had more people working for him than that. In that case, they were about twice or thrice the size.

 

[ParkCungHee]

It didn't take regiments. It took an income tax evasion rap. Being in jail tends to make it kind of hard to engage in warfare.

Well how many regiments did it take to enforce this tax evasion rap? Surely if they were larger then the Bowery Boys or Dead Rabbits, attempting to enforce such a punishment would take the state militia several days of hard fighting to get anywhere near Al Capone.

Forgive me, I thought Jesse James had more people working for him than that. In that case, they were about twice or thrice the size.

So you're still admitting that they were several orders of magnitude smaller then 19th Century Gangs.

 

[NickyJ]

Well how many regiments did it take to enforce this tax evasion rap? Surely if they were larger then the Bowery Boys or Dead Rabbits, attempting to enforce such a punishment would take the state militia several days of hard fighting to get anywhere near Al Capone.

Nope. Gangsters knew better than to wade into deep water with federal officers. And I'd like to know how you find that the Bowery Boys and Dead Rabbits were able to resist federal officers.

So you're still admitting that they were several orders of magnitude smaller then 19th Century Gangs.

Some of the gangs could have been smaller, but not all of them. Out of curiosity: Where are you getting your numbers? I find them quite... interesting.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Nope. Gangsters knew better than to wade into deep water with federal officers. And I'd like to know how you find that the Bowery Boys and Dead Rabbits were able to resist federal officers.

With weapons. You simply shoot at them or club them to death. There are less federal officers in the entire country then there are in your gang.

Some of the gangs could have been smaller, but not all of them. Out of curiosity: Where are you getting your numbers? I find them quite... interesting.

Precise numbers are hard to get on organizations like this for obvious reasons. However, on at least 3 occasions between 1840 and 1863, gang violence in New York City had to be suppressed by military force, as the entirety of the New York Police department did not have the physical force to confront them.

 

[Lord Baal]

Organised crime most certainly existed, in large numbers, in the US prior to Prohibition. Prohibition merely provided another source of revenue for organised crime, one which Capone in particular used to great effect. But don't confuse the stunning success of Capone himself with the success of organised crime in general during the Prohibition, as on the whole it actually lost some momentum.

There were greater profits to be had by the 1920s, which, as ParkCungHee said above, led to the pre-existing organised crime syndicates splintering. Later, Capone and a few others successfully eliminated much of their competition (usually by killing them) which also meant there were less people involved in organised crime overall. Those that were involved in organised crime tended to be more openly successful than previously, leading to the popular image that this was something new, but in actual practice it was the same sort of racketeering that had existed in the US since before the Revolution.

 

[Serutan]

Please quantify the activities of say, Bugs Moran versus the Bowry Boys.

Since no one else wants to do this, I will. Before the 18th Amendment, organized crime was highly localized -
each organization only operated in a single city (e.g. the Bowry Boys activities were confined to New York). The boost Prohibition gave
oraganized crime was this - by adding alcohol to the list of things they could peddle, it gave them an enormous infusion of money to expand their activities. Which they lost no time in doing, going regional and nationwide. For example Purple Gang in Detroit controlled alcohol smuggling for the entire Midwest IIRC, and even Al Capone did not seriously attempt to break their hold - he worked out a deal where he would distribute their stuff in the Chicago region.