GenMarshall
High Elven ISB Capt & Ghost Agent
I wonder what Smoking Mirror's next Industrial unit update would be 
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Project preview; Early industrial units
- Thread starter Smoking mirror
- Start date
GenMarshall
High Elven ISB Capt & Ghost Agent
*bump*
I beleve Smoking Mirror is doing the Dreadnought Battleship
I beleve Smoking Mirror is doing the Dreadnought Battleship
Smoking mirror
Ships Captain
O.K. Ive used the civfantaics downtime to set up a scenario with loads of the custom units, some new resources (Building stone, timber, etc..) to test what I have done and see what needs doing.
Ive found that just a few extra units in each age realy gives a lot smoother progression and having a HP bonus each time there is a weapons revolution (middleages-gunpowder-modern armies etc..) means that obsolete units are quickly eliminated from the game (when ever the A.I declares war on some one he sends in all his obsolete units and they get slaughtered to little effect, meanwhile the A.I. is building up new units- this works best in mainland cities, overseas colonies are realisticly vunerable to being garrisoned with out of date equipment, and subsequently change hands quite often).
One thing Ive realy noticed is that the age of sail is too short- frigates and galleons need to come earlier and the galleon needs to be replaced with a steam transport around the time of Steam power- otherwise all through the age of steam every one used sailing ships to transport their armies!
The Ironclad/Ironfrigate dual usage works great! I dont think a super ironclad is totaly nececary (I may do oe as an American UU), give the Ironclad ADM of 6/6/4 and the steam frigate 4/4/6 (I increase all the late industrail sea units movement a little so 6 is not particualy high) and the Ironclad sinking in deep water restricts its use to coastal mainland deffence while the Iron frigate is used for colonial long distance warefare (with attack and defence of 4 it is easy to eliminate the frigates of weaker backward states). I'm going to work on a new british UU sothe man O' war can be used as a ship of the line with the figate being reduced slightly in power so that the two units are either slightly more powerfull/costly or weaker/cheaper/faster than the current frigate.
Over all so far (I hav'nt finished the late industrial/modern eras yet, fist time round I realized that for some reason my modified earth map had no Rubber on it) I think the most important early industrial units would be a Steam transport and the british UU.
Also there is room for two different sorts of horse archer, with this in mind I will also try to finish my Scythian hores archer soon.
Ive found that just a few extra units in each age realy gives a lot smoother progression and having a HP bonus each time there is a weapons revolution (middleages-gunpowder-modern armies etc..) means that obsolete units are quickly eliminated from the game (when ever the A.I declares war on some one he sends in all his obsolete units and they get slaughtered to little effect, meanwhile the A.I. is building up new units- this works best in mainland cities, overseas colonies are realisticly vunerable to being garrisoned with out of date equipment, and subsequently change hands quite often).
One thing Ive realy noticed is that the age of sail is too short- frigates and galleons need to come earlier and the galleon needs to be replaced with a steam transport around the time of Steam power- otherwise all through the age of steam every one used sailing ships to transport their armies!
The Ironclad/Ironfrigate dual usage works great! I dont think a super ironclad is totaly nececary (I may do oe as an American UU), give the Ironclad ADM of 6/6/4 and the steam frigate 4/4/6 (I increase all the late industrail sea units movement a little so 6 is not particualy high) and the Ironclad sinking in deep water restricts its use to coastal mainland deffence while the Iron frigate is used for colonial long distance warefare (with attack and defence of 4 it is easy to eliminate the frigates of weaker backward states). I'm going to work on a new british UU sothe man O' war can be used as a ship of the line with the figate being reduced slightly in power so that the two units are either slightly more powerfull/costly or weaker/cheaper/faster than the current frigate.
Over all so far (I hav'nt finished the late industrial/modern eras yet, fist time round I realized that for some reason my modified earth map had no Rubber on it) I think the most important early industrial units would be a Steam transport and the british UU.
Also there is room for two different sorts of horse archer, with this in mind I will also try to finish my Scythian hores archer soon.
thestonesfan
A Client of Ron Kuby
That's pretty much what I've been doing too, and I agree with your conclusions.
The HP Bonus is very nice to change. I gave ancient units -2, early middle ages -1, gunpowder 0, and then Infantry-up +1, and changed the base HP's to Conscript = 3, Regular = 5, Veteran = 6, and Elite = 8. Unfortunately, I came to realize that one elite unit in the ancient age is pretty much unbeatable, since 2 HP's is next to nothing. This may be realistic, but it's not too fun if you don't have any elite units. So I changed ancient to -1, and set the base HP's to 3, 4, 5, 6. So the first big jump is when gunpowder comes along, so now it's a good thing to shoot for.
Another big change I tried is giving foot units 2 moves, and increased all the mounted units moves by 1. So far, I like it. It erases the advantage of retreating, but speeds up warfare.
Finally, I gave most ranged units a bombard attack, and increased the punch of siege weapons. It works much better. At first I thought it would give attackers an unfair advantage, but the ability of the defenders to run out, attack, and run back in, as well as bombard, counters it perfectly.
As far as the new units needed, earlier gun units are a must. I put in two new levels of infantry, Dark Sheer's musket infantry and then SM's flintlock infantry, and it works great. We really could use an extra tech in that area, so I've been thinking about changing "Free Artistry" to "Tactics" or "Leadership."
Also, I added a Men-At-Arms unit for medieval infantry, and he seems right at home with Feudalism.
And I agree that the ships need to come much earlier.
The HP Bonus is very nice to change. I gave ancient units -2, early middle ages -1, gunpowder 0, and then Infantry-up +1, and changed the base HP's to Conscript = 3, Regular = 5, Veteran = 6, and Elite = 8. Unfortunately, I came to realize that one elite unit in the ancient age is pretty much unbeatable, since 2 HP's is next to nothing. This may be realistic, but it's not too fun if you don't have any elite units. So I changed ancient to -1, and set the base HP's to 3, 4, 5, 6. So the first big jump is when gunpowder comes along, so now it's a good thing to shoot for.
Another big change I tried is giving foot units 2 moves, and increased all the mounted units moves by 1. So far, I like it. It erases the advantage of retreating, but speeds up warfare.
Finally, I gave most ranged units a bombard attack, and increased the punch of siege weapons. It works much better. At first I thought it would give attackers an unfair advantage, but the ability of the defenders to run out, attack, and run back in, as well as bombard, counters it perfectly.
As far as the new units needed, earlier gun units are a must. I put in two new levels of infantry, Dark Sheer's musket infantry and then SM's flintlock infantry, and it works great. We really could use an extra tech in that area, so I've been thinking about changing "Free Artistry" to "Tactics" or "Leadership."
Also, I added a Men-At-Arms unit for medieval infantry, and he seems right at home with Feudalism.
And I agree that the ships need to come much earlier.
Kal-el
Deity
Smoking Mirror,
One thing to remember when considerig the Ironclad, is that once you research Navigation or Magnetism, or whichever tech is set to allow trade over ocean tiles, no ships sink in the ocean anymore. So if you want to restrict the Ironclad to coastal tiles you need to disallow trading over sea and ocean tiles until after the Ironclad is obsolete.
The alternative method is to set the movement costs of Sea and Ocean tiles to 2 and 3 respectively and then reset your ship movements so that any ship that you want to be able to cross the ocean treats all terrain as roads and leave the others without it. This will at least slow down the Ironclads in the high seas and make them only "useful" along the coasts. This works out better, IMO, if you set the road movement value at 2 to allow greater variation in movement rates. Leaving it at 3 creates greater contrasts in movement rates and does not allow for smaller incrementation.
If you haven't already, give my DyP mod a try. It sounds like we are aiming for the same types of things. And it might be easier to modify my mod, rather than having to reinvent the wheel. I have done some very intensive modifications to the tech tree, units, improvements, governments, etc., basically every aspect of the game has become a bit more indepth and varied. The current version of DyP, v. 0.86, does not have your Cuiraisser or Napoleonic Infantry in yet (I was cramming to get them in my XP version) but they will be going into 0.9 of the regular Civ3 version which we will be working on soon.
One thing to remember when considerig the Ironclad, is that once you research Navigation or Magnetism, or whichever tech is set to allow trade over ocean tiles, no ships sink in the ocean anymore. So if you want to restrict the Ironclad to coastal tiles you need to disallow trading over sea and ocean tiles until after the Ironclad is obsolete.
The alternative method is to set the movement costs of Sea and Ocean tiles to 2 and 3 respectively and then reset your ship movements so that any ship that you want to be able to cross the ocean treats all terrain as roads and leave the others without it. This will at least slow down the Ironclads in the high seas and make them only "useful" along the coasts. This works out better, IMO, if you set the road movement value at 2 to allow greater variation in movement rates. Leaving it at 3 creates greater contrasts in movement rates and does not allow for smaller incrementation.
If you haven't already, give my DyP mod a try. It sounds like we are aiming for the same types of things. And it might be easier to modify my mod, rather than having to reinvent the wheel. I have done some very intensive modifications to the tech tree, units, improvements, governments, etc., basically every aspect of the game has become a bit more indepth and varied. The current version of DyP, v. 0.86, does not have your Cuiraisser or Napoleonic Infantry in yet (I was cramming to get them in my XP version) but they will be going into 0.9 of the regular Civ3 version which we will be working on soon.
Smoking mirror
Ships Captain
Kal-el: perhaps you can answer a couple of questions Ive got, as youve actualy done alot of modification (Ive spent most of my time modifying units etc..) For one, can you Add techs? do they show up properly on the tech tree (With the first few patches the tech tree messed up even if you didn't modify it, so I didn't even try, but the most recent one seems more robust).
I heard there was a problem with units showing up on the tech tree if they were added to a tech that already had lots of units atached (chivalry for example) I have not noticed it, but it sounds likely.
I'm thinking of doing a "Real earth mod" with a few selected aditional resources and some aditional units (about a dozen) and some modified early governments (I want to simulate the problems faced by the greeks, romans, persian and Ch'in chinese in that the state was effectivly split in three; the government- the King, emperor, senate etc..- the peasantry/slaves and the civil service, all working against each other to suit thier own interests. With late ancient governments I want to be able to focus the effects on one of these aspects; Corruption busting, trade (extra arrows), or happy workers (no despot working penalty))
With less powerfull governments in the early ages the tech rate should better refect the year/turn rate.
I'm also about to test adding custom city improvements to the city view (such as bunker defence etc..) so that they show up in arial view.
I heard there was a problem with units showing up on the tech tree if they were added to a tech that already had lots of units atached (chivalry for example) I have not noticed it, but it sounds likely.
I'm thinking of doing a "Real earth mod" with a few selected aditional resources and some aditional units (about a dozen) and some modified early governments (I want to simulate the problems faced by the greeks, romans, persian and Ch'in chinese in that the state was effectivly split in three; the government- the King, emperor, senate etc..- the peasantry/slaves and the civil service, all working against each other to suit thier own interests. With late ancient governments I want to be able to focus the effects on one of these aspects; Corruption busting, trade (extra arrows), or happy workers (no despot working penalty))
With less powerfull governments in the early ages the tech rate should better refect the year/turn rate.
I'm also about to test adding custom city improvements to the city view (such as bunker defence etc..) so that they show up in arial view.
Yes you can mod the tech tree totally as you like, although, the Arrows are now a set image, that you need to edit aswell.
You need to position each tech with the 2 Coordinates x and y. And each tech can have 4 requirements, if I'm not wrong...
One think I miss though, is the fact that a tech can't require a tech from another era. Which limited our WW2 - 1939 MOD. As we use the 4 eras as, Ground Wardare, Air Warfare, Sea Warfare and Scientific Advances. I wanted the tech Atom Bomb in Air Warfare to require Fission in the Science tree, but that's not possible. So we are probably gonna make it so Fission makes it possible to build a building required to build the Atom Bomb, which will be available with the tech Atom Bomb.
You need to position each tech with the 2 Coordinates x and y. And each tech can have 4 requirements, if I'm not wrong...
One think I miss though, is the fact that a tech can't require a tech from another era. Which limited our WW2 - 1939 MOD. As we use the 4 eras as, Ground Wardare, Air Warfare, Sea Warfare and Scientific Advances. I wanted the tech Atom Bomb in Air Warfare to require Fission in the Science tree, but that's not possible. So we are probably gonna make it so Fission makes it possible to build a building required to build the Atom Bomb, which will be available with the tech Atom Bomb.
Kal-el
Deity
As Grey Fox has indicated it is possible to modify the tech tree. Its not all that hard either it just takes some time figuring out the Xs and Ys.
I believe that the most Icons that you can get to show up with a tech is 6, so just don't associate more than 6 ttotal combined units, improvements, citizens or worker jobs with any one tech. This shouldn't be a problem if you are adding in your own techs anyway.
You can check out the tutorial I wrote on the subject a while back. You may find it helpful.
Science Advisor Tutorial: How to get you Modified Tech Tree to Look Professional The tutorial thread includes the arrows, a blank advisor screen, and smaller tech boxes to use so you can fit more techs on the screen. As an example of howmany techs you can reasonably fit in an advisor screen, the latest version of DyP has 44 techs per era, and I could probably fit a couple more in there without it getting to cluttered. It all comes down to tech relationships and Unit and Improvement prerequisites.
I have added several new resources. It is now possible to have more than 8 luxury resources, though only 8 will affect a city's happiness at any one time, the surplus resources can still be traded.
The Governments sound interesting.
And let me know if you have any success with the arial view. Firaxis has said that do not plan on allowing us to add buildings to it. The best we can hope for is altering or replacing the existing images with our own.
I believe that the most Icons that you can get to show up with a tech is 6, so just don't associate more than 6 ttotal combined units, improvements, citizens or worker jobs with any one tech. This shouldn't be a problem if you are adding in your own techs anyway.
You can check out the tutorial I wrote on the subject a while back. You may find it helpful.
Science Advisor Tutorial: How to get you Modified Tech Tree to Look Professional The tutorial thread includes the arrows, a blank advisor screen, and smaller tech boxes to use so you can fit more techs on the screen. As an example of howmany techs you can reasonably fit in an advisor screen, the latest version of DyP has 44 techs per era, and I could probably fit a couple more in there without it getting to cluttered. It all comes down to tech relationships and Unit and Improvement prerequisites.
I have added several new resources. It is now possible to have more than 8 luxury resources, though only 8 will affect a city's happiness at any one time, the surplus resources can still be traded.
The Governments sound interesting.
And let me know if you have any success with the arial view. Firaxis has said that do not plan on allowing us to add buildings to it. The best we can hope for is altering or replacing the existing images with our own.
Dragon King
The Dragon Clan
This is how i want to set my ironclads up, however when i play a game, and evetually get to the poit where ironclads are being used, they are used in ocean squares regardless and never sink, whih is the same for the galleys and the caravles which are still being used and it annoys me intensely. I have set the ironclad to sink in ocean squares however they dont sink. The sinking risk probably gets stopped by some advancement in the game, but i dont know what to d to stop it in the editor. Does anyone know what to do?
Kal-el
Deity
it is whatever tech you have set to allow ocean trade. That tech also allows all vessels to safely cross ocean tiles. Similarly, the tech that allows sea trade allows safe sea travel.
Dragon King
The Dragon Clan
Hmmm, i took off safe sea and ocean travel, but they could still safely travel in ocean squares. I thought about taking off the alows sea trade and ocean trade but that would make my ports useless and not be able to get vital resources to cities not connected to the mainland. Sighs
Kal-el
Deity
the allows sea and ocean trade triggers are the only way to maintain the sinking in sea and ocean effect. Take a look at my suggestion above on increasing movement costs and corresponding movement rates.
Dragon King
The Dragon Clan
Whoops, sorry bout that, didnt notice your post then....totaly oblivious
D'oh
D'oh
Smoking mirror
Ships Captain
For Kal-el; Yes I spent a few hours poking about trying to add new buildings; there is even a sheet in the CivIII city view folder called Aditional buildings- I thought it would be as easy as adding an image and then associating your new building with it; but unfortunately theres no way to associate.
On the Ironclad subject; Ive been thinking of how an earth scenario could be modded to better represent sea trade and one Idea I had was making sea and ocean trade impossible and connecting the landmasses with Coastal "trade lanes" (they would have a resource in them called Trade lane that looked like the old trade arrows from civ II) Submarine warfare could then be better utilized because an oceans trade could be controlled by controlling the few trade lans (park a submarine any where on an enemy trade lane and that link becomes useless untill the sub is destroyed. The effect would also be to make these sea lanes (well charted stretches of ocean where the wind follows seasonal paterns) the path between continents for ships that would otherwise sink.
I'm not sure how it would work over all, as soon as people got galleys they would just follow the sea lanes over to america and start sytematic colonization, which strictly speaking shouldn't happen till 1492 (or the 9th century AD if you are the Vikings).
However perhaps the Trade lane markes would be invisible till a certain tech so that after 1492 for example portugal would be right next to a whole buch of coastal resources that offers extra cash.
On the Ironclad subject; Ive been thinking of how an earth scenario could be modded to better represent sea trade and one Idea I had was making sea and ocean trade impossible and connecting the landmasses with Coastal "trade lanes" (they would have a resource in them called Trade lane that looked like the old trade arrows from civ II) Submarine warfare could then be better utilized because an oceans trade could be controlled by controlling the few trade lans (park a submarine any where on an enemy trade lane and that link becomes useless untill the sub is destroyed. The effect would also be to make these sea lanes (well charted stretches of ocean where the wind follows seasonal paterns) the path between continents for ships that would otherwise sink.
I'm not sure how it would work over all, as soon as people got galleys they would just follow the sea lanes over to america and start sytematic colonization, which strictly speaking shouldn't happen till 1492 (or the 9th century AD if you are the Vikings).
However perhaps the Trade lane markes would be invisible till a certain tech so that after 1492 for example portugal would be right next to a whole buch of coastal resources that offers extra cash.
Kal-el
Deity
I guess I don't know how you would prevent coastal lanes from being used by the galleys either. You may want to at least use the sea trade to help prevent the exploitation of the coastal lanes and then use sea tiles only along these trade routes.
Think about using the ATAR flag as well. I wasn't sold on the idea originally, but I think it works pretty well. Eventually you will want to allow Ocean trade so that places like the South Pacific can be used as ports for all kinds of fun luxuries.
Think about using the ATAR flag as well. I wasn't sold on the idea originally, but I think it works pretty well. Eventually you will want to allow Ocean trade so that places like the South Pacific can be used as ports for all kinds of fun luxuries.
Smoking mirror
Ships Captain
Yes I could have sea trade with Navagation so that Caravels can use the trade lanes for transport (while sinking in ocean tiles) Ironclads would also sink in ocean.
Smoking mirror
Ships Captain
Ive just got a day job so my graphics time will be restricted to weekends, I will still get all my projects done but it may take a little longer.
I'm still testing all my units for bugs and possible improvements (Some of them were made so fast Ive never even seen them in the game!) But getting through to the modern age is difiicult (I just got to the point of building early tanks (no problems there, Kinboats Renault is a masterpeice!) and was about to get improved light tanks (T26) and the game crashed so I have to start all over again, hopefully I should get all the way through soon (I keep having to add new units) and then go back and fill in the gaps. I'm also going to try to fix the city display problem with some of my units (such as the dragoon and Flintlock rifleman) which causes them to lose thier heads in the city view screen.
I'm still testing all my units for bugs and possible improvements (Some of them were made so fast Ive never even seen them in the game!) But getting through to the modern age is difiicult (I just got to the point of building early tanks (no problems there, Kinboats Renault is a masterpeice!) and was about to get improved light tanks (T26) and the game crashed so I have to start all over again, hopefully I should get all the way through soon (I keep having to add new units) and then go back and fill in the gaps. I'm also going to try to fix the city display problem with some of my units (such as the dragoon and Flintlock rifleman) which causes them to lose thier heads in the city view screen.
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