Project preview; Early industrial units

[zulu9812]

I think an 18th century lancer is a great idea - it fills that historical gap. One question - weren't Cromwell's New Model Army also armed with msukets, including the cavalry? That would make a strange game progression: musket cavalry > lancet > rifle cavalry.

 

[Smoking mirror]

Generaly Rifle armed cavalry is a relativly modern development; remember in cromwels time muskets were generaly barrel loaders, imagine having to stop and reload every shot, with a big unwieldy musket before you could fire again.
In the 17th to early 19th centuries most cavalry was either lancers or swordsmen, usualy a combination of both (charge with lance, drop it and switch to swords) this much better suited the task of cavalry against firearm using troops; the maing body of infantry and artillery would attampt to break the oposing army with sheer weight of fire, if it did break the cavalry would persue and cut them down, if they did not break it was up to the cavalry to turn the balancewith a good charge!

The highlanders used charging infantry to break the enemy, and the bayonet developed in respose to this, and to the threat caused by charging cavalry. In defence the bayonet was not very effective against the infantry charge, but certainly stoped the cavalry (there's not a hores in the world that will charge a formed square of bayonet armed infantry). In offence the bayonet proed to be a usefull terror weapon, and combined with good tactics could be a sucessfull as any highlanders charge. Later on rifle armed cavalry was made possible by less clumsy, rapid firing rifles and was made usefull as a counter to the bayonet.

As a progression it should go;
knight---> musketman---> Dragoon/lancer--->bayonet musketeer ---->cavalry --->Rifleman

 

[thestonesfan]

Hmm. I like that sword cavalry. A Dragoon would be hard to make I'd think, since as far as I know Dragoons were not really cavalry, that is, they did not actually fight from horseback but dismounted once they reached their destination.

As far as a Crusader, I don't know. A Crusader was pretty much a Knight, but didn't the Crusader actually predate the Knight?

 

[ViceRoy]

Originally posted by Smoking mirror
In the 17th to early 19th centuries most cavalry was either lancers or swordsmen, usualy a combination of both (charge with lance, drop it and switch to swords) this much better suited the task of cavalry against firearm using troops; As a progression it should go;

Well the way of using cavalry came very essential during the thirtyyears-war. Of course it was the increased firepower that eventually disclosed most of the battles but...
The troops of kaiser used the method of pistol cavalry where cavalry attacked in line, stopped and shooted and then retreated to load. However of course the musket rifle was way too heavy for use that time so cavalry used musket pistols. Later this of course caused that during example USA civil war cavalry had different kind of small arms (shotguns etc.) because they were easily used (Leaders like Sheridan and Stuart making the cavalry efficient fighting tool still). The cavalry that used rifle became indeed later troops that dismounted before attack. If I remember right this method was popular example in Russia-Japan war. So it was kinda late for cavalry.

Anyway...As I mentioned the troops of german used the attack&retreat method. (I don't remember the right term in english)
Sweden forces used however different method and that was light cavalry who attacked with fierce speed and using swords as weapons. Those troops were about the same kind of armor you have pictured there in that "cromwell" infantry. Finnish cavalry was especially famous of this method during the thirtyyears-war and were known as "hakkapelitas".
Because this light cavalry attack method was so popular it continued it success and as you know Napoleon used this kind of troops too.

So there were different kind of methods but using light cavalry just overrun the enemy was the favorite one for long time as the infantry used lot of time reloading.

I think you should do knight with lance. I mean good armor with lance and big shield. These could be like the mercenaries of medieval times...as there comes the term "freelancer".

 

[GenMarshall]

The Cavalry Units looks great . I cant wait for the Improved/Super Ironclad, the Dreadnought, and the Imperial aged Cavalry (Note The Imperial Age would be from the 1500's to 1700's.).

P.S. Any updates on the Dreadnought or are the ships going to continue once you have finished the Imperial age Cavalry .

 

[TVA22]

And the heavy bomber.

PS: SM, are you still going to do the redcoat? I was really looking forward to that. Just wondering of course.

 

[cockroach]

Well, you could set it as the lancer having a higher attack than the dragoon but give the dragoon defensive bombard and a higher defence.

 

[Smoking mirror]

I think the sword cavalry fills a good gap between knights and full cavalry, the heavy horseman would make a good filler between the horseman and knight- A heavy knight and crusader would be good for scenarios, such as the rise of Islam, the crusades and the eruption of the mongols and Vikings- all very popular scenarios.

I tend to do whatever unit feels most fun/ challenging at the time; ballenced by how usefull it will be. Sometimes its purely about the fact that I'm tired of doing a particular kind of unit like tanks for example. Eventualy they will all get done, but for now I'm interested in getting some early industrial units finished for perhaps doing a scenario. I will do the heavy bomber and the tank killer etc.. but at the moment, I am exited by the challenge of doing a cavalry model. Next will be a imperial (bayonet armed)musketman, who could be used as a redcoat (given a red coat) or as any other kind of musket unit. The british army uniform went through so many cahnges, its realy hard to cose one for use- the helmet on the unit I originaly posted (when i corect the shape) will realy mark him out as a british soldier, but then thats all he can be used for. I'm thinking of using a more generic shaped hat, (as shown at the bottom of this post) similar to that used by man infantry armies between the fassion for ticornered hats and the adoption of the flat cap (like in "north" american armed forces during Civil war) and the various helmet designs adopted by different nations.

Ive only got the death animation to do on the sword armed horseman, I'm quite happy with the rest, not as smooth as the firaxis units but very reasonable.

Here is a picture of what the generic early rifleman may looklike, Iv'e just changed the hat, need more research in to the actual design, and I can't help but feel that he looks a but too burly for napoleonic infantry, perhaps his shoulders are too broad? Any way the whole model need some work- I think I'll work on the Super ironclad and some Frankish style heavy horsemen next.

 

[ViceRoy]

To help with that excellent unit idea:

Napoleonic cavalries:

Carabiniers (russian standard cannon in ground)

French Cuirassiers

Prussian Dragons

Hussars

French Horse Guards

 

[Kal-el]

ok, but isn't that what the cavalry in the game is now?

thats what I have been using them for, and using Dark Sheer's Bandit as a post American Civil war type cavalry.

 

[ViceRoy]

Originally posted by Kal-el
ok, but isn't that what the cavalry in the game is now?

thats what I have been using them for, and using Dark Sheer's Bandit as a post American Civil war type cavalry.

what purpose that original civ cavalry serves.
Most of the units in that time didn't use capes and if I remember right the unit has one...also using rifle when mounted is something really strange. Dark Sheers bandit fix well for cavalry during USA civil war and after but before that...as said it was mainly light cavalry that used swords as weapons to rout the infantry.
I think Firaxis have tried to create "all purpose" units that cover long time period but when you start making more units you notice that Firaxis units don't fit anywhere. Same goes with that tank unit that must be some WW1 tank but still acts almost like panzers...

However Smoking Mirror seems to have so many units in drawing board that I'm all confused what he's going to do and why.

 

[Kal-el]

I guess I should clarify. I wasn't trying to discourage any one from creating what would, I am sure be a fine looking unit, just wondering why this one right now. The more units on the boards the better as far as I am concerned. Those are some pretty cool pics too.

I should also indicate that I am using the original cavalry as a dragoon, even though he doesn't dismount to fight.

 

[Smoking mirror]

Mostly I'm thinking of doing a "real earth" scenario with plenty of realistic unit progression; I think I'll start around the end of the Middleages, when the shape of the world that we now know was begining to take shape, with all the modern nations starting to emerge. It will flow all the way to the middle modern era.
I want to fill in the gaps left by firaxis in the introduction of the new "resources idea" to civ III, if you dont have saltpeter or oil then you will end up as the only fast unit available to you is the Knight.

Any way, I've finished the Sword armed cavalry, you can download it now. I recoment having be available to civs without saltpeter and as a filler beteen knights and cavalry available with gunpowder or metalurgy.

 

[zulu9812]

Originally posted by Smoking mirror
Next will be a imperial (bayonet armed)musketman, who could be used as a redcoat (given a red coat) or as any other kind of musket unit. The british army uniform went through so many cahnges, its realy hard to cose one for use- the helmet on the unit I originaly posted (when i corect the shape) will realy mark him out as a british soldier, but then thats all he can be used for. I'm thinking of using a more generic shaped hat, (as shown at the bottom of this post) similar to that used by man infantry armies between the fassion for ticornered hats and the adoption of the flat cap (like in "north" american armed forces during Civil war) and the various helmet designs adopted by different nations.

could you do two versions of your redcoat? One generic, and one 'Rorke's Drift'? It shouldn't be too difficult either.

 

[GenMarshall]

*Bump*

Smoking Mirror, Any new Updates on the ships .

 

[Smoking mirror]

O.k I probably will do the British infantry at some point, but first I want to do a Napoleonic Rifleman; The firaxis rifleman is a Union rifleman from the american civil war but that was nearly a century after the real birth of nationalism and the invention of the first riflemen- as well as the first real exersize in large scale drafting by france. With this in mind I'm making a unit to go between the Colonial musketman (curently being worked on by dark sheer) and the current firaxis rifleman- for a scenario running form the 1700s to the 1900s, covering all of pre-modern warfare.

I had trouble coming up with a generic design, so mine is partly based on british riflemen of the time, though many other countries used similar equipment and uniforms.
The model needs some work still, mostly in the testures, Iwent a bit overboard adding shine to some parts (to represent leather for example), to give parts of the unit a more 3d appearance.
I may also do a special "Guards" variant.

 

[Smoking mirror]

Heres a preview of what it lookslike at civ scale, I'm also thinking of doing an "Eastern rifleman" to be used by the turks, arabs and other muslims, who played a big part in most of the major events of the time;

 

[Kal-el]

I think that is your best human unit so far! Did you change the proportions a bit, or is it just my eyes playing tricks on me?

 

[Kal-el]

If you do do an eastern rifleman you should do one on a camel in robes as well. A Beduin Raider. That would be cool!

 

[Smoking mirror]

Yes apart from the hands and head, this is a copletely new model.
Ive developed a better degree of control since I did my first human model so I wanted to redo it from scrach.

Does anyone have any pictures or information about mideleastern armies during napoleonic times? What colours were used in uniforms by the various regions?