Protecting cannons from cavalry

[Derakon]

I recently got into a war with Saladin when his best units were riflemen and cavalry. I had riflemen and infantry, but my best siege unit was still cannons. Problem is, he kept sending his cavalry in on suicide attacks on my stack, which just wrecked my cannons thanks to the collateral damage cavs do to them. This made them useless for dealing collateral damage themselves, and in fact they were steadily getting destroyed since cavalry collateral damage doesn't have a cap -- it can destroy cannons even if they aren't directly attacked.

How are you supposed to carry a war forwards in this kind of situation, short of beelining Flight or Artillery? It seems to me there's basically no way to protect your siege without leaving it at home; even if you build anti-cavalry units that won't stop them from damaging your cannons into uselessness.

I ended up calling off the war for long enough for my remaining cannons to heal and me to build up way more cannons than I would otherwise need; then I re-declared and rushed to the city I'd been trying to nab, suicided half my now half-dead cannons on it, and then took it with my infantry. Then I finally teched artillery and did a mass-upgrade of what I had left.

 

[kossin]

Fighting against the counter isn't fun.

Usually, having one massive stack will do the trick, making the AI not want to attack it. And once he goes in turtling mode (hides in cities), you've basically won.

 

[ahcos]

yeah, that annoys me too.. let's say you're ahead in tech (rifles/cannons) fighting vs. hammurabi who's best unit is cuirassier - he has several more soldiers but your better units can stomp them, but he'll continue to suicide cuirassiers into your stack so you can't steamroll him ~~ that happened my last game. annoyed me to death since it was basicly useless for him, especially as he had no chance to fight me in the long run. yes, he had almost my power, but i was like 50k beakers ahead ._. made the war long and unpleasant.

 

[dirtyparrot]

I may be wrong, but I thought that the amount of HPs a cannon has doesn't impact the amount of collateral damage it dishes out. The first few cannons are usually for suicide anyway, so sacrifice the more damaged ones first and save those promotions until you need them (i.e. to attack or if they're in danger of dying from getting flanked).

 

[plasmacannon]

If you have Infantry, you should research Machine Gun and move one around in your stack.
That would be the defender at that time period.
With an 18 attack, 1 first strike (can get Drill1-4) and immune to collateral damage, add medic1+2, is the best you can do, after specializing your Inf for vs mounted and having Medic1+2+woods3.

They should make a sniper unit, to first stike a mounted unit, before doing collateral.

 

[jabberwalkee_]

Sometimes you can place cavalry counters ahead of your stack in such a way that it is difficult for them to get cav in there, but of course they just end up attracting your enemy's stack, so it's tough.

 

[Derakon]

If you have Infantry, you should research Machine Gun and move one around in your stack.
That would be the defender at that time period.

Oh, I had machineguns. Four of them in that stack (along with ~12 infantry and a steadily-diminishing number of cannons). They kill cavalry entirely satisfactorily. Doesn't do a thing to protect my cannons though.

It's sounding like there basically isn't a defense against flanking attacks in this game besides teching until you have a unit that can't be flanked. Is that accurate? Jabberwalkee's suggestion wouldn't have worked given that I was fighting in wide-open terrain and his cavalry have 4 move to my 1.

 

[Jerrymander]

As far as definite ways to not get flanked, that seems like the only counter. When your enemy has >100 cavalry, massed Cannons lose their luster.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Send spies in to pillage his horses. He'll still be able to build camel archers, but they can't flank cannons.

Or, don't bother with seige - bring down the defenses with spies and just attack.

 

[UncleJJ]

Then I finally teched artillery and did a mass-upgrade of what I had left.

This is the only reliable solution and why if a future war target has curassiers or cavalry you need to prioritise Physics and Artillery if you want an easy win.

However, there are some tricks you can use to reduce the problem, if you can't wait for the solution, depending on how many cannons you have and how many curassiers / cavalry you're facing.

a) Declare war on him and sit back defending your own territory. There is a high probability that he will send most if not all of his mounted troops to invade your territory, particularly if you have a city with an intentionally weak garrison. Once they're inside your territory (or your vassal's) your cannons and rifles move 3 along roads and their mounted move only 2 making it easy for you to destroy their stack. They will build a few more but probably not enough to kill your cannons.

b) Instead of having one big stack invade his territory with all your cannons in try splitting it into two or three stacks each with (say) 3 cannons and 9 rifles/ infantry. If the mounted troops attack one stack they can only kill some of your cannons and still lose a lot of attackers to your defenders. These stacks need to be big enough that they won't be wiped out and they can march together on neighbouring tiles for mutual support. By splitting your cannons up you increase the number of attackers he has to use to destroy your cannons. He will be trading cavalry for your cannons. Expect to lose some cannons so build more of them and try to capture his horses or use a spy to destroy it.

 

[UWHabs]

Just bring more power. His cavalry don't deal flanking damage if he doesn't win. So come in with some C2/formation rifles/infantry, and not more than about 40-50% of his cavalry attacks will actually damage you.

Or, if you have infantry already, don't worry too much. As long as a few cannons are still alive, you just need them to bombard. With infantry, they can easily take on any city with only rifles that is at 0% cultural D. They can even take on most with some basic D.

 

[DaveMcW]

Just bring more power. His cavalry don't deal flanking damage if he doesn't win.

They don't do damage if they die. 1-hitpoint retreating cavalry do plenty of flanking damage.

So come in with some C2/formation rifles/infantry, and not more than about 40-50% of his cavalry attacks will actually damage you.

Flanking damage is reduced by the strength of your best defender, so having a strong cavalry counter is useful for that reason.

 

[Scoottr]

I may be wrong, but I thought that the amount of HPs a cannon has doesn't impact the amount of collateral damage it dishes out. The first few cannons are usually for suicide anyway, so sacrifice the more damaged ones first and save those promotions until you need them (i.e. to attack or if they're in danger of dying from getting flanked).

Everyone seems to be ignoring this post. It is the right answer I believe. One shouldn't be worried about losing some siege, that is their purpose..to take the brunt of the inital attack. Suicide your low HP siege and then the higher ones, probably with more promotions anyways, will survive better.

 

[Derakon]

Hmm...I'm used to cannons being the first siege that can actually survive worth a damn. Oh, well. The constant attrition was also slowing me down; by the time my army made it to his city I was down to 5 cannons, and they still needed a turn to bring down defenses before they could start the collateral damage going.

Of course, if the AI were smarter, he'd do a massed cav rush aided by his own siege to outright destroy all of my cannons; it'd be expensive, but it would also completely stall my war effort. Mind, he still hasn't teched steel, so his best field siege is catapults...

(Of course, if the AI were smarter, he also wouldn't have declared war on me in the first place, especially since I was in the process of building up my own army while trying to decide who to attack)

 

[plasmacannon]

I looked it up.
Camel Archers do not tdo Flank Attack damage to cannons, and no Mounted do flank attack damage vs. Artillery. So, you (all of us) will have suffer for a short time until we have Artillery.
Only Gunships do Flanking damage to Artillery and Mechanized Artillery.

So, a Gunship with Combat1+2+3, Blitz, Charge, Flanking1+2 is devastating to Artillery.
Usually, an AI won't have the Combat3 for Blitz, so, you should be ok there.

Hannibal, is CHA/FIN with a mounted UU.
It is possible, he could have promoted units to that way, but, doubtful.
We could running him, of course.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Rifles cover cannon pretty well, and infantry are even a little better. If you maul their clump of cavalry SoD first before entering their borders, there's no reason the AI will be able to materially flank a stack with 20+ rifles.

 

[Khan Quest]

So, a Gunship with Combat1+2+3, Blitz, Charge, Flanking1+2 is devastating to Artillery.

Any leading-tech unit with 7 promotions is devastating.

 

[Carboniferous]

If you maul their clump of cavalry SoD first before entering their borders

Of course, this is tricky if you're invading overseas.

It's the decent withdrawal chance that make cavalry so annoying for flanking, meaning strength superiority can't completely save you.

 

[CHEESE!]

If there's time, spread out, surround and destroy. Especially if in your own territory.

 

[plasmacannon]

Any leading-tech unit with 7 promotions is devastating.

For the most part, yes.
If the unit has Geurilla2+woods2 and 3 other promotions not related to what I am attacking with, but, is in plains, then No, I don't fear it.

I was just pointing out the specific promotions that make this unit Great at Flanking Seige.
Sure, one could go higher than Combat3, but, 3 is the min. for Blitz, so, I stopped there.