Prussians

[Domen]

I found an interesting dictionary of Prussian language (480 pages, PDF file):

http://donelaitis.vdu.lt/prussian/Engl.pdf

 

[Phrossack]

Good. Prussia for the Prūsai!

The trouble is that there seem to be as many different reconstructions of Prussian as there are experts who research it. It's a similar problem with Cornish and Proto-Indo-European. Which one do we choose?

 

[Domen]

Which one do we choose?

Well, you should ask one of these 200 Prussians, I guess:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussian_language#Revived_Old_Prussian

Revived Old Prussian

A few experimental communities involved in reviving a reconstructed form of the language now exist in Lithuania, Russia, Poland, and other countries. About 200 people have learned the language and are attempting to use it in as many everyday activities as possible.[citation needed]

Important in this revival was Vytautas Mažiulis, who died on 11 April 2009, and his pupil Letas Palmaitis, leader of the experiment and author of the web site Prussian Reconstructions.[11] Two late contributors should be mentioned specially: Prāncis Arellis (Pranciškus Erelis), Lithuania, and Dailūns Russinis (Dailonis Rusiņ&#353, Latvia. After them Twankstas Glabbis from Kaliningrad oblast and Nērtiks Pamedīns from Polish Warmia-Mazuria actively joined.

And preface to this dictionary (see the link in my 1st post) says that Prussians want to be recognized as a national minority in Germany.

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By the way, I found a website (rather not very serious one) which claims that Bolesław Prus was a Prussian.

Here is a wiki article about Prus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolesław_Prus

 

[Domen]

Well, perhaps he was a descendant of Prussian refugees - since his Coat of Arms was Prus (first mentioned in the 13th century):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prus_coat_of_arms

 

[Domen]

Phrossack, I don't think that there is a "similar" problem with Prussian as with Proto-Indo-European.

After all, there are numerous old writings and printed texts in Prussian, while not a single one in PIE.

 

[schlaufuchs]

After all, there are numerous old writings and printed texts in Prussian, while not a single one in PIE.

Might be because PIE is not now, nor was it ever an actual language.

 

[Domen]

So you deny the common origin of Indo-Europeans?

 

[schlaufuchs]

So you deny the common origin of Indo-Europeans?

No, I just actually understand how reconstructed languages work. Languages like PIE and PGmc are not meant to be spoken because they never existed in reality. They're merely approximations of grammar and vocabulary which have been postulated based on the comparative method. It's meant as a tool for comprehending and understanding how all other IE languages are related to one another both in syntax, morphology, and grammar, and for considering the principles of how languages change over time, but it is not, nor has it ever been intended as an actual language that anybody at any time ever spoke. It's actually similar to the so-called biological "missing link" between humans and other apes. It acknowledges that there was a point many millions of years ago in which humans diverged from other apes, and that we would expect it to possess features x, y, and z based on features we notice common to us and our closest living ancestors, but this "missing link":

a) Is merely an abstract substitution for an expected species, not the species itself
b) May represent many different species entirely.

In much the same way, both PIE and PGmc represent abstractions of what the earliest Germanic and Indo-European languages probably would have looked and sounded like, but they are not actual languages. They have never, and most likely will never be documented. They may not even represent singular, homogeneous languages, but a further group of related languages. This is why they are denoted with an asterisk. It's not a real language. It's not meant to be learned or spoken or read in the traditional sense. It's a theoretical model used to interpret how "Hund" and "hound" and "hund" and "hond" are related to one another, and then further related to "canus", "cwn", "sùnt-ene", "ku", "suo" and "sun"

As John Waterman says:

We have no documents written in the parent language from which the various Indo-European idioms are presumed to have descended. Although historical linguists refer freely to this Indo-European parent language, it is in fact a "reconstructed" language, existing only as the product of the comparative method; its forms are labeled with an asterisk in order to inform the reader that they are reconstructed and not recorded - that is, that they do not actually occur. We refer to this "language" [note the quotations] as Proto-Indo-European, abbreviated to PIE or - if the reference is quite clear - simply to IE. This reconstructed Proto-Indo-European is of value to the extent that it is based upon documented forms of real languages and reflects the correspondences that obtain between these documented forms. The individual reconstruction - the "starred form"- has the status of a formula constructed for the purpose of summarizing sound changes in a group of related languages; it is not necessarily identical with a word that may once have existed.

 

[Domen]

Well, but what you write does not suggest that "it was not an actual language".

It only suggests, that the modern reconstruction of this language is for sure not entirely accurate.

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BTW:

Fragment from the preface to that Prussian-English Dictionary:

 

[Plotinus]

No, I just actually understand how reconstructed languages work. Languages like PIE and PGmc are not meant to be spoken because they never existed in reality. They're merely approximations of grammar and vocabulary which have been postulated based on the comparative method. It's meant as a tool for comprehending and understanding how all other IE languages are related to one another both in syntax, morphology, and grammar, and for considering the principles of how languages change over time, but it is not, nor has it ever been intended as an actual language that anybody at any time ever spoke.

I don't see how PIE could function as a tool for understanding the relations between modern languages if it weren't intended as an attempt to reconstruct an actual extinct language. The passage you quote warns that PIE is a reconstruction and therefore provisional and uncertain, but it doesn't assert that PIE is not intended to be as accurate a reconstruction as we can make of a real language. Surely the success of PIE as an explanation of modern forms of language will depend on how accurately it reconstructs the actual extinct language that they're descended from. And indeed it's possible, at least in theory, that the reconstructors got it right and that there really was an extinct language just like PIE. Surely that's what the reconstructors hope for, at least!

 

[Domen]

Some more maps:

Boundaries of Medieval Prussian tribes compared to modern borders of Poland, Kaliningrad Oblast, Lithuania and Belarus:

Sudowia = Jaćwież = Yotvingia, inhabited by Sudovians / Yotvingians (easternmost tribe of Prussians):

For some reason, Lubavia is not marked by this map (it was to the west of Sasna, in area around Nowe Miasto Lubawskie):



Another similar map (but here for some reason Lubavia and Sasna are not marked):



Directions of German and Polish colonization in Teutonic Order's Prussia during the 14th century and the 15th century:

Black arrows - German colonization
White arrows - Polish colonization
Dark areas - property of bishops (mainly in Warmia = Ermland)



Polish colonization in East Prussia (later Ducal Prussia) during the Middle Ages and Early Modern Era (areas 1, 2 and 3):



German map from 1847:

Red line = border of the Kingdom of Prussia (historical Yotvingia was located to the east of this border):

Green colour (in the north-west) = territories with German-speaking majority
Yellow colour (in the south) = territories with Polish-speaking majority
Grey colour (in the north-east) = territories with Lithuanian-speaking majority



Prussian language survived the longest time - because until the 18th century - in Sambia, to the north of Konigsberg.

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Another map of tribal divisions among the Baltic peoples (names of tribes are in Polish):

Small version:



Large version:

Spoiler :

Liwonia / Livonia (inhabited by Liwowie = Livonians) was not a Baltic tribe, but an Ugro-Finnic one (closely related to Estonians & Finns).

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BTW:

Elbing (Elbląg) is the "daughter" of an older Baltic Prussian city - Truso

Konigsberg (Kaliningrad) is the "daughter" of another Prussian city - Tvangste

Some reconstructions of Truso before it changed name to Elbing:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Reconstructions of Old Prussian houses from Pruso (notice the "Prussian wall" patterns):

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Archaeological works, Truso:

Spoiler :

I could not find any reconstructions of Tvangste, but here is wiki article about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tvangeste

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BTW - interesting question is why Prussians were assimilated and lost their language, while Latvians - also conquered by crusaders - were not.

At least in case of Latvian rural populations.

 

[Domen]

BTW - interesting question is why Prussians were assimilated and lost their language, while Latvians - also conquered by crusaders - were not.

At least in case of Latvian rural populations.

Maybe below is one of reasons - this is what S. Plater wrote about Latvians in a book from 1825:

"(...) The Latvians - that is the Letten - who live in Courland and in southern part of Livonia, speak a language similar to Lithuanian, because these languages are of common origin; but Latvian language is more educated than Lithuanian, due to efforts of local nobility, and even more due to efforts of local Protestant Pastors, who took care of this language, and published many works in it - some of them translated from German language. Moreover, there exist Latvian print shops in Riga, Dorpat and Mitau. They are using German [Gothic] letters, but printing in Latvian: apart from this, also the Latvian Newspaper is being published in Mitau (...) each commune is obliged to distribute this newspaper. (...) Latvian houses are large and with large windows, like German ones. (...) Many of them can read, to which contributed the most their Protestant Pastors. (...)"

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BTW - this is the place of one of last places of Pagan Cult in Prussia (people practiced Paganism there even during the 1400s):

http://mazury.info.pl/atrakcje/gilma/index.html

One page from that German-Prussian dictionary from the 1500s:

http://postimg.org/image/6kp4fqht9/



Prussians (right) fighting against forces of the Teutonic Order (left) - depiction from Teutonic Order's Castle in Marienburg (Malbork):

http://postimg.org/image/43uv64wlf/full/





All Prussian warriors seen above, use typical Eastern-style shields known as pavises (they later became popular also in Western Europe):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavise

This style of shield originated among Eastern Slavic and / or Baltic people, and only later spread into all other regions.

Teutonic Knights adopted this style of shield from their enemies and then subjects - Prussians. Here a Teutonic Knight with a pavise:



During the 1400s pavises used by infantry became larger (longer / higher) and more massive:



Here is Pater Noster prayer in Prussian language (text from 1500s):

Below a ritually clenched Prussian sword (Medieval period):



And here a reconstruction of a Prussian warrior:



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Regarding pavises - in this book:

https://plus.google.com/photos/1163...5566495025647329890&oid=116379070585776810685

They say that in Teutonic Order's documents, pavise was called "prusche shilde" and "scutum Pruthenicum" ("Prussian shield").

Later they write that during the 1300s pavises can be found in documents describing the inventory of Teutonic Order's arsenals.

Then they quote testimony of a witness who saw Teutonic Order's forces plundering the Polish town of Sieradz.

And that witness (during Polish-Teutonic court trial) was asked how he recognized that those were Teutonic forces.

He replied that he knew those were Teutonic Order's units, because they were using "scutum Pruthenicum" type shields.

Author of the book adds: "indeed we know, that during Polish-Teutonic war in 1331 large part of Teutonic army were Prussian units".

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Here you can read more about Polish-Teutonic court trials (in English):

http://www.academia.edu/2579308/Mem...der_in_the_fourteenth_and_fifteenth_centuries

 

[Domen]

That Teutonic depiction in Marienburg Castle, is from times shortly after the conquest of Prussia.

So this is a very realistic depiction.

But of course the society of Baltic Prussian included nobility / warrior class - who were better armed and better armoured - as well as commoners - who during wars fought as levies, not as "professional warriors", and surely had worse armour than the warrior class / nobility.

We can also see one unarmoured archer there (or maybe this is a woman with a bow?).

And there are also other depictions of Prussian warriors, which show less armour on them:

Prussian warriors from the "Gniezno Doors" (12th century) - not so much armour, but a sword can be seen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gniezno_Doors







Prussians killing Saint Adalbert (also from the "Gniezno Doors"):



Some modern depictions of Prussians (these would be commoners, surely not Prussian nobles):





But this is also accurate (if not more accurate), - just not every single one of them had such good armour:



Anglo-Saxons in 1066 also had Fyrd (poor armour, levies, mostly spearmen & archers) and Housecarls (good armour, warrior class).

In Early Medieval Poland (900s - 1000s) there were also Pancerni (elite druzhina, warrior class) and Tarczownicy (levies).

It seems that all those Pre-Feudal societies had similar organization of armed forces. Perhaps that was the case with Prussians too.

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The Prussian society consisted of:

Rich nobles (Prussian: konagis), each of whom had his personal druzhina (Prussian: laukinikis) and servants. Apart from rich nobles, there were medium nobles (rikis / rikijs), free commoners (tallokinikis) and half-free or unfree commoners (kumetis) who lived in estates of rich nobles.

Opinions when it comes to proportions of each group are very different.

But some Polish historians estimate that rich nobles were 3%, kumetis were 9% and the rest were 88% (most of them tallokinikis of course). In some regions - mostly in Yotvingia - percentage of konagis was bigger, even 10% to 15%. And also % of kumetis was bigger there.

 

[Domen]

Prussian Truso (later Elbing / Elbląg) was a major center for Baltic trade, which was frequently visited by merchants even from very distant regions (including Scandinavia). Many silver coins minted in various parts of the world were discovered in the vicinity of Truso.

Some of coins discovered in Truso and in the neighbouring areas:

English coin from Rochester Wessex mint (minted in ca. 845-848):



Dinar from Danish mint in Hedeby (minted in ca. 800-850):



Another Danish dinar (minted in ca. 825):



Abbasid dirham (minted in ca. 815-816):



Sassanid coin (minted in ca. 591-628):



The same type of coin from another place:



The area between Vistula River and Pasłęka River was a mixed area of Baltic(Prussian)-Slavic settlement - below a map showing settlements in this area in period between the 9th century and the 11th century (1, 2, 3 = Slavic strongholds, settlements and cemeteries; 4, 5, 6 = Baltic / Prussian strongholds, settlements and cemeteries), 7 - defensive walls (made of ground and wood), 8 - traces of Scandinavian settlement (traders, merchants, etc.) and 9 - Truso:

 

[Domen]

In the video below, guy is talking in reconstructed Prussian language (English subtitles say also something about this uprising):




Link to video.

Another video:


Link to video.

BTW - Prussian-speakers are called, for some reason, Old Prussians.

But if we want to be consistent, we should call them Old Old Prussians.

Because German-speaking Prussians are also "Old" nowadays.

Most recent Prussians, are these Russian-speaking ones.

Anyway - I simply prefer to call those original Prussians just like this - "Prussians".

And of course they didn't get extinct, only their language did, when they switched to German, Polish or Lithuanian.

Lithuanian was so similar to Prussian that the process of language shift could even go unnoticed in this case.

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BTW - territory of Prussian tribes before the conquest by Teutonic Order was ca. 42,000 - 50,000 km2.

So most likely it was inhabited by at least 200,000 and perhaps up to 400,000 or more Prussian people.

 

[Domen]

And of course they didn't get extinct, only their language did, when they switched to German, Polish or Lithuanian.

That said, still many Prussians (surely many thousands, maybe even a few dozen thousands) died during the conquest.

And there is a poem about war crimes of Teutonic Knights, written by German poet from East Prussia - Johannes Konrad Bernhard Bobrowski:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Bobrowski

Here is the poem in question:


Link to video.

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Reconstructed Yotvingian settlement (but it doesn't look like a very accurate reconstruction, rather a tourist attraction):


Link to video.

11th century Prussian treasure discovered in Prabuty:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prabuty


Link to video.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Well, but what you write does not suggest that "it was not an actual language".

It only suggests, that the modern reconstruction of this language is for sure not entirely accurate.]

Its implied, as PIE is an artificial construction based on relations of real languages and has no intention of being representative of any historical or ancient language.

It is a tool, not a reconstruction.

Or are you under the impression that Indo-European tribes 5,500 years ago had a universal, standardized language?

 

[Domen]

Well, the most common theory says that the PIE language was originally spoken in a relatively small area, and only later expanded into entire Europe.

So yes, I think that it initially could be a relatively intelligible language to all groups of its speakers.

The language was - of course - gradually becoming more and more diversified as it continued to spread over Europe, together with agriculture.

Because original speakers of Proto-Indo-European were the same people who introduced agriculture to Europe - if I remember correctly.

It doesn't mean that those newcomers-farmers exterminated previous populations of hunter-gatherers.

Quite the contrary - it was to a larger extent a spread of language and technology, and only to a lesser extent a spread of actual peoples:

Biological (genetic) research speak in favour of presence in the area of India of ancestors of modern Indians - also these from higher castes, with famous haplogroups R1a_and_further - already in pre-Indo-European period. The most reasonable conclusion from this fact must lead to a statement, that so called indoeuropeization was in fact a process of mostly cultural and social / ethnical (linguistic) transformation, rather than physical migration. This is a meaningful "novum" in researching the processes of ethnogenesis, achieved thanks to genetical researches.

Associating R1b Y DNA haplogroup with Indo-Europeans - and just with them - is also wrong, considering that the Basques have the highest % of this haplogroup in Europe. And the Basques, ironically, are not even Indo-European speakers. They are one of few EU populations who didn't adopt IE language. Of course we can as well invent absurd theories that IE people came, slaughtered all Basque Non-IE men, married their women AND then adopted their language...

In other words, it would mean that IE guys let themselves get assimilated by dead Basques...

 

[TheLastOne36]

Well, the most common theory says that the PIE language was originally spoken in a relatively small area, and only later expanded into entire Europe.

So yes, I think that it initially could be a relatively intelligible language to all groups of its speakers.

Possibly. Though I refuse the notion there was any '1' language, as these are tribes we are speaking about, they had no standardized language.

But that language(s) if it existed, would not have been PIE. The PIE we are speaking of today by no means is supposed to be representative of any extinct language those proto-Indo-European tribes spoke.

 

[Domen]

Not exactly having much to do with Baltic Prussians, but:

West Prussian (Royal Prussian) Land Records from 1772/1773:

http://www.odessa3.org/collections/land/wprussia/

http://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Poland_Census

Introduction

After the occupation of West Prussia and the District of the Netze River by Prussia during the first partition of Poland in the year 1772, the Geheime Finanzrat Rembert Roden was ordered by Frederick the Great to prepare a land survey of these territories. The land survey should produce the necessary foundation for the introduction of the Prussian taxation system in the new territory. In the years 1772/73 three commissions with about 60 officials and 40 surveyors were occupied with this work. For each town a land register was established which could contain up to 91 items.

This was largely a head of household registration and not a poll tax or one that counted every person. Thus the listing of names is restricted to the head of household at the time of the registration. Most head of households were male although there are a few women listed. The most frequent enumeration of women comes as widow and thus lists the surname of the deceased husband. Unfortunately, many women are listed without a surname, this is also the case with male Jews, and to some extent people with Polish heritage. An important aspect of this land tax register is the listing of children. The number of children living in 1772 are numerically indicated, most of the time designated as over and under 12 years of age.

The land tax register of 1772 has been discussed by various German and Polish authors in Europe. A bibliographical list of these articles are given at the end of this introduction.

The history of the ownership and holding archives in itself is extremely interesting. The many volumes of the land tax register were moved from archive to archive over periods of time. Somehow most of it has survived two world wars. The 18th century copies of original volumes of West Prussia have found their way back to Geheimen State Archive in Berlin. However, the original volumes for the Netze River District have remained in Bromberg State Archive, today Bydgoszcz, Poland. This listing does not include the Netze counties because we have not received a letter of permission to post those records on the Internet.

In the 1920's the volumes for West Prussia, minus the Netze counties, was extracted and typed onto sheets of paper. These documents are today housed at the Herder Institut, Marburg, Germany. More than thirty years ago films were made of the Herder Institut material. One set of films was kept at the Marburg State Archive, one in another more remote place for safe keeping and a third was taken to Poland where it is available today at the Scientific Institute in Thorn/Torun, Poland. We are fortunate to have received a copy of the film from the Marburg State Archive. We thank them for this courtesy so that this information can be shared with Germans from Russia and other ethnic Germans as well as people of Polish heritage. It would appear that more than half of the surnames are Polish.

The material that was filmed contains only the surname and the numerical list of members of the household including hired servants, farm hands both male and female. In some cases these are missing. The material that was not filmed included number and types of animals, farm machinery, buildings, household holdings etc. For this type of sociological study one would need to go back to original documents in Berlin and Bromberg/Bygoszcz State Archives.