Public Investigation: People vs. Chieftess, Part II

[Eklektikos]

Originally posted by FortyJ
Consider a situation in which there are a handful of workers in the far southeast corner of a province. The governor's instructions to the DP include irrigating the plains in the far northeast corner of the province (let's say two turns march from their current location). Should the DP be obligated to cease all work in the southeast and march clear across the province to commence work in the northeast immediately? What if the distance is so great that it would take five turns or more to reach that area? At this level of difficulty, such inefficiency could spell disaster.

If we assume that the DP should have the right to direct the workers to work their way up to the northeast corner, what tasks can be performed? Should the DP be restricted to only building roads? What about irrigating the land on the way there? ... or how about a well-placed mine next to a city in need of some additional production? If the governor has not provided instructions, what should the DP be permitted to do?

Of course, if the governor is present at the turn chat, the DP can simply ask the governor what he or she would like done. However, if the governor is absent from the chat, what then? Should the DP do nothing and simply move them to their intended destination? Or perhaps, he or she may decide to end the chat early rather than waste those precious turns that could be spent in more productive ways.

If governors are going to be given authority over how quickly a task must be commenced, irregardless of the situation at hand, then maybe we should consider making their attendance at turn chats mandatory.

Maybe we should consider ammending the rules so that the DP can have control over the workers as long as the worker is not idle or positioned in a tile adjacent to another tile that the governor wants to be worked, or when the governor says pretty please in the instruction thread, or during turn chats that occur on Tuesday evenings under a full moon. I think that will make things run so much smoother.

Alternatively we could simply work on the time honoured principle that the DP's job during the chat is to follow the instructions as given in the instruction thread, and that those instructions should have passed inspection by the populous before the start of the turn chat itself. We should not be interpreting or writing rules based on an assumption of incompetence from any of our leaders - that way lies the concept of demogame as spectator sport.

 

[Cyc]

Well, 40J only if you want to follow the CoL. If you'd rather throw that book out, you could let the president/DP organize tile use in all the Provinces. And by follow the Instructions the Governors have left I mean that they should be done first. You keep switching on the wording like we just started this conversation this morning. Just to refresh your memory of things we've been talking about, National projects approved by Congress, like the Rail System do have priority as far as the main goals are concerned. No, I'm not saying every tile in the nation has to be railed before any irrigation or mining can take place, 40J. There are certain short trm goals, like finish the East/West Rail System or connect all the cities by rail, that kind of thing. But I can see by the way that you put the word "only" in italics that you mean to warp the phrase into another absurd example or make a situation so difficult to abide by that discussing it will be meaningless. I have tried to discuss this and other points with you over and over to no avail. Each time it's like we're starting over. What's your point?

 

[Donovan Zoi]

@FortyJ --- we have made our laws with the assumptions that we will elect or appoint competent citizens to run our provinces. Therefore, we can expect that a governor will not send a worker on a mission from, say, Eklektochtitlan to Ibizia(far reaching province example) by road and back again. One would hope that the governor in question would assess the workers nearby and plan accordingly.

That said, this PI deals with a situation where there were workers within a reasonable proximity of the governor's request, so your argument to the contrary doesn't work here. There is no reason why those orders should not have been followed.

Admittedly, this PI may open up to floodgates to similar accusations, and we will hopefully be able to determine which of those have merit. But should that preclude trying this case on its merits? Cyc made a reasonable request of a worker that was 2-3 tiles away by road. Cyc instructed a zig, while the DP zagged. End of story.

 

[FortyJ]

First, I am not in favor of carte blance with respect to presidential power. The President is obligated to carry out the instructions as presented in the turn chat instruction thread. My concern, and the primary focus of my argument, comes from the lack of instructions or situations in which the instructions leave room for error.

My previous example was intended to illustrate the complications and potential danger of any rigid requirement placed on the DP with respect to organizing worker actions. Prioritizing between national projects and local desires or national defense for that matter is simple and most of us would likely agree on which situations demand highest priority. However, the easy situations are not the concern - it's the tough ones that will get sticky if we do not tread carefully when setting the precedent from which all future disagreements will be resolved.

Let us re-examine my previous example. Should the workers pack up and move clear across the province without performing any tasks (even roads) until reaching their destination? Perhaps so, but perhaps not. Should the DP be powerless to take action if there are no instructions on this, or if there are no instructions at all? As a former president and DP yourself, Eklektikos, I am curious to know how you handled situations such as these. Did you build roads to the destination? Or if there were no instructions at all, what did you do with the workers? (Rhetorical - no need to answer as I am not trying to single you out... just illustrating a point).

What about if another governor needs something done concurrently? Who gets priority? Many, many turns ago, the Southwest province requested a great irrigation project to bring water from a river located nearly a dozen tiles away from one of its cities. This project required the resources of many workers that could have been doing other work in other provinces. I'm sure other governors would have liked to have some of those workers at their discretion, but priority was given to that project so that those cities would have a chance to grow and reach their full potential.

What if a governor requests that some forrest be cut down and those tiles irrigated for growth, but the nation is at war with a neighbor and our troops cannot reach the front line quick enough to bring sufficient force to bear because there are no roads crossing the mountains dividing our two countries? Should the governor's instructions be followed at the peril of our troops at the front?

If there aren't enough workers to go around, should the DP be investigated for not following a governor's instructions then? Or if there aren't enough instructions for the workers, should the DP be investigated for building roads or taking the initiative and irrigating plains or mining hills? Where do we draw the line?

My interpretation of the two laws provides for the governor to determine what improvements are to be done within his or her province, and provides the President the flexibility to prioritize and enact those improvements in an efficient manner. Can we add restrictions to the term "organize" when it comes to how the president organizes worker activities? Sure, but at what cost? The mechanics of the game almost require that the DP be afforded great leeway with respect to worker actions, and we as citizens entrust the DP to use that leeway in a responsible way, consistent with the wishes of the governors of each province.

The DP cannot, and should not, ignore the wishes of the governor, and that is essentially the core of this issue. Did Chieftess ignore Cyc's instructions or did she just place a different priority on it than he would have?

I think there's a valid argument for both sides. I also think that we have hashed out this issue quite thoroughly, and although this hardly qualifies as "petered out", I would like to motion that this charge be moved to the trial phase and put to a vote.

Edit: corrected some grammatical errors...

 

[Cyc]

Once again 40J, i have to point out that this PI is not about priorities of time. This PI is about the development of tiles in a given Province. Period. There is only one law in question here. And it deals with the development of tiles in a Governors Province. If the DP wants to hold off on the Governors instructions and mine some other hills or irrigate some other grasslands in his province, that's just wrong. What if he or she didn't want those tiles to be worked? what if doing that work messed up the big picture or current over-all plan for the Province? Well, I guess those things wouldn't matter as the DP would be given the right to organize tile development under your plan. Who needs Governors anyway. Certainly not the author of the plan you just stated.

 

[FortyJ]

Cyc, are you saying that you did not want to build a road on the tile NE of Androbius, or have a mine in the tile SE,SE of Androbius? If you did not intend to improve these tiles in this manner or in a way contrary to how it was done, then this is a different story. If, however, you simply did not want them done at this time, then I can see no other way to view this except as an issue of priorities.

Also, if you did not want those improvements in those tiles, I suggest you instruct the DP to move a unit from inside of Androbius and pillage that road and the mine so that they are removed immediately.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

And shouldn't a governor have priority on non-national instructions within his province? Otherwise his role in this regard is practically useless.

Cyc's instructions should have taken precedence on tile improvements within his province. Otherwise, why go through the trouble of posting them? Plus I am sure he would have rather had the mines in the Kuhkaff hills since we are building the Military Academy there.

 

[Cyc]

It's senseless arguing with your Sir Forty. Putting a road on a Tundra tile that a city won't use is more important than irrigating agrassland tile so a city can grow and develop? Do you know how long it will be be Androbius uses that roaded Tundra? And Riga is so small that mining that grassland is not a make or break issue. Yes, with all the mountains and hills surrounding Riga, maybe irrigating that grassland would have been a much better way to go about it. But that wasn't up for discussion at the time. The important issue was the growth of another city. So in answer to your question, it is entirely possible that I don't want that grassland mined ever!

 

[FionnMcCumhall]

Originally posted by FortyJ

Also, if you did not want those improvements in those tiles, I suggest you instruct the DP to move a unit from inside of Androbius and pillage that road and the mine so that they are removed immediately.

I wouldnt do that to that tile. You never know there could be oil in that thar tundra

 

[Shaitan]

Things are getting a bit too warm here again. Please constrain your arguments to the thread topic. Specifically, the PI charge that Chieftess violated COL D-1-e.

 

[FortyJ]

I'm moving this into trial. We've definitely pushed the limits of debate with this one.

Contrary to what you might think, I can see both sides, and in all candor, I'm actually torn on this issue. My position on the law however, is unchanged. There must be considerable leeway granted to the President with respect to worker actions. Any alternatives, I fear, would open a Pandora's box from which may spring countless additional PIs.

Edit: One more thing... just because you grant someone leeway, doesn't give that person the right to do whatever the #$(% he or she likes. I am not stipulating that the DP does not have to answer to anyone. Hence, my indecisiveness on CT's guilt or innocence with respect to this charge.