Public Investigation: People vs. Octavian X Part II

[Bill_in_PDX]

I take note of your defensive posting and the map. What was the content of that stack?

The force present is shown as a spearman, which is not an offensive force.

 

[Shaitan]

Any troop that can commit an offense is an offensive troop. The AI attacks with spearmen, riflemen and infantry.

 

[Cyc]

Pardon me, but offensive troops are those whose numbers show a higher attack strength than defensive strength. That's the reason the term "offensive" was used, to show the difference between the two. I think the lack of adhering to traditional procedures and terms is becoming "offensive".

 

[Octavian X]

'Offensive' was never clearly defined. It could be in the manner you suggest, or I suggest, or even as offending to a single person. Besides, look at the AI's strategy. Even in this game, pikemen were used as offensivly to pillage improvements in my province. Lastly, it is possible that some type of troop that is 'offensive' in your definition was stationed in the city.

 

[Shaitan]

So then hypothetically if a governor had set inappropriate build queues the Military Leader would be powerless to correct them as a spearman walked about the countryside destroying improvements.

Anyway, I'd like to see some proof that there were in fact no "offensive" troops in the province, as that is what the prosecution is alleging. Remember that in our justice system the prosecution has the burden of proof, not the defense.

 

[Goonie]

With the new evidence brought to light, I now support Octavian's innocent plea. Good defence work!

 

[Shaitan]

According to the Cyc definition, Legionnaires are not an offensive unit.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

That is simply not true. So if offensive force has no meaning for us, why is it in the law?

Under Shaitan and Octavian's definition, an offensive force could well be a Scout.

If the stack shown is a settler/spear combo, which the AI is also known to do during war, then NO, it isn't an offensive force. That's why I would like to know if we can determine what was in the stack.

 

[Goonie]

But scouts cant attack or pillage. This spear was not a combo, it in my opinion is clearly going to pillage. And we may assume that there are units with higher attack rating than defence ratings in Izibia itself!

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Octavian X
My defense, after an hour or so of thinking, has been posted.

After about five minutes of thinking over your defense I am amazed at the lengths you are willing to go to in order to be acquitted. You've gone a long way (in the wrong direction I think) from first admitting that what you did was wrong. I will ask for a Judicial Review regarding whether or not foreign held territory should be considered as being within a province.

 

[Strider]

Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX
Under Shaitan and Octavian's definition, an offensive force could well be a Scout.

I'm going to have to go with Shaitan here. ( ) Nope.... Under Shaitans and Ocavian's defination any unit that can take offensive action is an offensive unit. A scount can not take offensive action... so thus is not an offensive unit.

 

[Strider]

As Octavian clearly show in his defense post.... There were offensive troops in the province. Also.... This PI is misplaced.... This should not be against Octavian X.... this should be against Falcon as he is the one who requested the change and as a Democracy the citizenry is the choser.

This PI is also useless against Falcon because of this

Can supercede a provincial build queue with military units or improvements during time of invasion.
Invasion is the presence of offensive troops belonging to a country we are at war with inside the borders of the province to be superceded.

AS Octavian X posted in his defense there was offensive troops in the province. Thus Falcon was within the law in requesting that the queue's be changed.

 

[Falcon02]

I've gotta agree with Shaitan to an extent. Rifles can easily be used offensively against our pikes.

However, this is an interesting loophole. Honestly I never really liked how "time of invasion" was defined, since as CT pointed out, Cavs can easily take cities without being within our borders first. Which means overrides would almost exlusively be of the council vote type. And though if we saw a Cavalry right outside a province border the ML would theoretically be helpless (though I won't argue that such a case wouldn't likely initiate a Council override.)

I still think the charges vs. me and Octavian should be dropped. All these PI's are doing is distracting us from the Demogame IMHO, over no real good reason except to ensure we follow the law precisely.

IMHO, PI's should be reserved for A.) incidents which were harmful B.) Incidents of unlawful information gathering (ie cases where a player purposly commits an irreversable move in a Demogame save, esp. a recent one).

When I've described the Demogame to my brother and other people, I've sometimes gotten the responce "You guys take it way too seriously" and I'm starting to wonder if they may be partly right in the sence that we're being too obsessed with rules which are inplace to primarily to create an orderly system.

But, I don't know, maybe I've been made a little biased of late.

 

[Strider]

Originally posted by Falcon02
I've gotta agree with Shaitan to an extent. Rifles can easily be used offensively against our pikes.

However, this is an interesting loophole. Honestly I never really liked how "time of invasion" was defined, since as CT pointed out, Cavs can easily take cities without being within our borders first. Which means overrides would almost exlusively be of the council vote type. And though if we saw a Cavalry right outside a province border the ML would theoretically be helpless (though I won't argue that such a case wouldn't likely initiate a Council override.)

I still think the charges vs. me and Octavian should be dropped. All these PI's are doing is distracting us from the Demogame IMHO, over no real good reason except to ensure we follow the law precisely.

IMHO, PI's should be reserved for A.) incidents which were harmful B.) Incidents of unlawful information gathering (ie cases where a player purposly commits an irreversable move in a Demogame save, esp. a recent one).

When I've described the Demogame to my brother and other people, I've sometimes gotten the responce "You guys take it way too seriously" and I'm starting to wonder if we're being too obsessed with rules which are inplace to primarily to create an orderly system.

But, I don't know, maybe I've been made a little biased of late.

We can't be to serious on the rules. There not to clearly defined (no offense to Shaitan or anyone else who made them), but there are tons of loopholes in the const. Being serious with them is stupid.

I happen to think that Donsig is only doing this to cause choas and distract people from the demogame or to ruin those people's chance's for re-election in the up coming elections.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by donsig


After about five minutes of thinking over your defense I am amazed at the lengths you are willing to go to in order to be acquitted. You've gone a long way (in the wrong direction I think) from first admitting that what you did was wrong. I will ask for a Judicial Review regarding whether or not foreign held territory should be considered as being within a province.

According to your own statement, Izibia was inside the borders of your province.

Here is a map of the Southwest Province. It clearly shows Izibia within the borders of this province.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Strider


I happen to think that Donsig is only doing this to cause choas and distract people from the demogame or to ruin those people's chance's for re-election in the up coming elections.

Strider, I have given several warnings in the last day or so regarding insults. Consider yourself on very thin ice. If you are wondering, what you just did is called trolling, and is expressely forbidden by forum rules. Do not do it again.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Shaitan

According to your own statement, Izibia was inside the borders of your province.

It was certainly inside the Southwest Province after our troops occupied it. If you look at the whole thread you'll see this post where I note that Izibia had been added to the Southwest province. I was clearly under the impression that it was not part of the province until we actually took possesion of it. I am presently waiting to hear the Judiciary's ruling on this matter.

 

[Falcon02]

Like I said, we can take things too seriously and literally with the code.

I can't believe that Donsig wished to "create chaos, distract people, or hurt people's chances of re-election." That doesn't sound like the Donsig I know. I believe him when he told me he only wished to make a point we must follow the laws better in the future. However, I agree that those 3 things tend to be the results of most of the PI's we've seen thus far.

And again in Donsig's defense (and potentially against myself) the question is whether the foresight we place into our Province maps ("claiming" AI lands) should count twoards our policy regarding the laws. Are governors thus lacking in their duties of posting build Queues for Baltimore and other American Cities which we have placed into provincial borders? HECK NO! Secondly that qoute was from after we had captured Izibia and our foresight for maping that province had been fullfilled and Izibia was undoubtably a part of that province.


Like I said before... I never did really like how that rule for Military overrules worked....

 

[Strider]

Originally posted by Falcon02
Like I said, we can take things too seriously and literally with the code.

I can't believe that Donsig wished to "create chaos, distract people, or hurt people's chances of re-election." That doesn't sound like the Donsig I know. I believe him when he told me he only wished to make a point we must follow the laws better in the future. However, I agree that those 3 things tend to be the results of most of the PI's we've seen thus far.

And again in Donsig's defense (and potentially against myself) the question is whether the foresight we place into our Province maps ("claiming" AI lands) should count twoards our policy regarding the laws. Are governors thus lacking in their duties of posting build Queues for Baltimore and other American Cities which we have placed into provincial borders? HECK NO! Secondly that qoute was from after we had captured Izibia and our foresight for maping that province had been fullfilled and Izibia was undoubtably a part of that province.


Like I said before... I never did really like how that rule for Military overrules worked....

Like I just said..... The laws are not clear on alot of points. This happens to be one of them. It is useless to PI someone when they were both right and wrong in doing it.

Strider, I have given several warnings in the last day or so regarding insults. Consider yourself on very thin ice. If you are wondering, what you just did is called trolling, and is expressely forbidden by forum rules. Do not do it again.

Trolling? Never knew that was trolling.... I just said that was my personal belief.... Heh..... Don't trolls live under bridge's anyway? Also I think the last one was about a week ago..... I forget.... I'll go check (Edit: About 5 days and 3 hours ago)

 

[donsig]

The Judiciary has rendered a split decision that in effect says that Izibia was a part of the Southwest Province all along. I have therefore asked that this PI against Vice President Octavian X be withdrawn. I also publicly offer my apologies to the VP/DP in light of this new ruling.