*Punches Screen in* Damn Noble!!

[Tiepolo]

Ok, so to start, I've been playing Noble for about six months now. At first I'd get my ass kicked in all aspects of the game and end up quiting in rage, but eventually I got better. Now my games are 50-50, but to the extreme. One game I'll be playing and barely have the lead and then all of a sudden plumet down the score board around the middle ages until I'm last and lose, the next I'll have an atleast 1000 point lead and be kicking ass and taking names.

As you might have guessed from the title, I'm posting about one of the bad games that I've finally given up on. In this game, I'm playing as the Persians on a Fractal map and I have somewhat of a good start. I began with the lead for a good chunk of the ancient era and classic era. I declared war on Augustus (immortal rush) and crippled him early. But then Saladin started pulling head technologically. His power trippled and I lost the lead to him, but still had about 400 points on the third place guy. Then out of Nowhere, Augustus took third after being totally crippled and then declared war on me. I held of his Prats with Axemen and got peace in my favor. But than he all of a sudden took second from me. Now Frederick who was in fourth is now catching up to me. WHAT THE HELL!!??

- My economy sucks, I'm barely holding 50% (I might be at 60% while I have gold)
- I'm technologically backwards
- Everyone hates me
- My military is obsolete
- Plus more

I'll attach the save, but only mac players can open it. Help would be great as I'm ready to throw Civ away.

 

[Nickzilla]

It's really hard to get Noble right. But I guess you've come to the right place for advice, since you'll be bombarded with it now.

I can't open your save, but from what you described, you sound pretty screwed. Maybe you should do over on this game in particular.

 

[vicawoo]

Technologically backwards and people hating you tend to go hand in hand.
At least in warlords, in terms of techs that you research, you tend to fall behind in the medieval era. Put it this way, if the enemy AI trades their tech to three other people, they are quadrupling your tech rate. If they are friendly with each other, you can't keep up.

There are probably economic tips like cottaging your capital or ensuring some early great people, but diplomacy would probably due more for you. When you declare, keep in mind who your trading partner will be. Convert to a religion to keep friends if need be. Don't declare on a member of a religious block. Try to get civs to declare war on each other. Suck up when you need to. Make some resource trades, convert to a favorite civic.

I would guess that in your successful games, the surviving civs tend to like you and hate the civs you took out. Conversely, when you're losing, you're making too many enemies.

 

[cripp7]

after looking at your save you have a lot of unimproved tiles, not near enough workers. I agree with a lot of what vicawoo said about the cottages, and diplomacy. That game is quite not over yet. There's still a lot of work that can be done. try looking in the strategy tips for especially Sisiutil's guides. They helped me a lot because I started out doing a lot the same things you are doing. I'm not claiming I'm a great player, but I'm much better than what was
Cripp

 

[Orion071]

The 2 main reasons why people fall behind arenot enough Workers and not enough Cottages.

The accepted ratio is 1 Worker per city, but I disagree. I think you need 1.5 per city. You really can't have enough Workers. And all of those Workers should be building Cottages.

Sisiutil's guides are great, but they're on Emperor and not all of his techniques will apply to you. My guides are on Noble and show you just how easy Noble is supposed to be. Check my sig for details.

 

[Harbourboy]

City specialisation. People who struggle at Noble almost always fail to have specialised cities. Just one Super Science City and one GP Farm will probably have a huge impact on your game.

 

[Roxlimn]

People who lose at Noble get a lot of things wrong, not just specialization. You should win at Noble without specializing anything, but it helps.

Orion's tip is probably the most useful. Spam Workers like making more of them than any other Civ is the point of playing Civ - because it is. I would go to an extreme and say that you ought to have 2 per city, especially in the early REX phases of the game. Having 6 workers working 3 partially developed cities is even sometimes lacking, especially when you have 3 more Settlers on queue.

 

[Zanttu]

One more thing that hasn't been said yet: Don't look so much on your score. It tells nothing. There are many much more important things to think, like tech situation and economy.

 

[nindustrial]

Yes, definitely check out Orion's guides, they helped me immensely. The major thing I got from them was cottages and expansion. I too would often fall apart in the mid-game and I'm pretty sure it's because I stayed too small for too long, on top of a poor economy due to too few cottages.

Since getting the hang of those two main things, I've wiped the floor with the AI in Domination, Cultural, Conquest and Space Race victories; In fact, once I got those first two victories I felt a lot better - the next two were just to make sure I had it down. I'm ready to move up and looking forward to it; it's a good feeling when Noble suddenly seems too easy.

 

[Refar]

Reading all those advise about more workers i become worried you might not have time to build troops in your next game Dont get me wrong, workers are very, very important, but those generalized numbers like 2/city can be misleading.

What you want to achieve, is no city being working unimproved tiles. When you see this happening - like a city just grow and not have a tile to work, build one or better two new workers. Its of course better to anticipate, and to build those workers right before the shortage becomes apparent - you will get the experience needed to see this soon enought.

Basicly this means that you will be need a higher Worker/City ratio early in the game, and that the ratio will drop as your empire grows.

On other notes...

Decide early what type of economy you want to run. I.E. if you want to run cottage economy, its very-very important to build cottages very early in the game. The sooner you build AND work them the sooner they will grow.

Specialize your cities. Decide early what each city shall contribute to your empire. Prioritize improvements and building accordingly, dont spend worker time / hammers for buildings that do not contribute too the spezialization you chosen.

There are lots of good tutorials around here.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=165632 This one from Sisiutil covers the most basics you need to know. Its a bit dated (pre BtS), but still very great to cover the basics.

Since you seem to have trouble with diplomacy try this: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=157242 It's a article on 'Triangle Diplomacy'.

 

[Roxlimn]

No worries. At Noble level, you'll run out of Workers to build before you run out of military buildup time. Even a 2:1 ratio doesn't take long to fulfill.

 

[lukep]

What you want to achieve, is no city being working unimproved tiles. When you see this happening - like a city just grow and not have a tile to work, build one or better two new workers. Its of course better to anticipate, and to build those workers right before the shortage becomes apparent - you will get the experience needed to see this soon enought.

Basicly this means that you will be need a higher Worker/City ratio early in the game, and that the ratio will drop as your empire grows.

On other notes...

Decide early what type of economy you want to run. I.E. if you want to run cottage economy, its very-very important to build cottages very early in the game. The sooner you build AND work them the sooner they will grow.

Specialize your cities. Decide early what each city shall contribute to your empire. Prioritize improvements and building accordingly, dont spend worker time / hammers for buildings that do not contribute too the spezialization you chosen.

follow those advises, they are good. but there is a bit more.

City growth is critical. So whatever economy you choose, make sure that all your cities have +4 or +5 food anytime till they reach the hapiness limit (on noble it is high, which make big cities even more important). Even in a mostly cottage setup, build enough farms to acheive that.
Granaries are a very big priority. changing the tiles worked according to the time is important (work farm to grow, then mines to build)

build only the buildings needed. you need granaries & courtouses everywhere, barracks are fine, and monument or libraries if you are not creative, but all the others should be made only at need, especially the costly ones like forges.

On the diplomacy front, you need at least one trading partner, so whatever you do dont angry him by trading with his worst ennemy. Sharing a religion or having none is good.

 

[Morgrad]

Sisuitil's ALCs start at Noble on Vanilla and progress up to Emperor on BtS, with most being Monarch on Warlords, so they are very, very relevant to almost every player.

I'll check out the save in a bit.....

 

[Winston Hughes]

At first I'd get my ass kicked in all aspects of the game and end up quiting in rage

First tip: stay calm.

Easier said than done, I know. But frustration and anger are the enemies of sound strategic thinking. Treat every setback as a lesson, and every defeat as a chance to re-evaluate your strategies.

Now my games are 50-50, but to the extreme.

Second tip: broaden your range of strategic options

I used to suffer from exactly the same thing. The problem (I would guess) is that you're stuck with too limited an armoury of strategies and tactics.

The beauty of civ is that there are many, many different ways to carve out an empire, to build an economy, and to pursue victory. Some approaches will work like a charm in one situation, but fall flat in another. Only by possessing a wide repertoire of strategic ideas and devices can you be prepared for any eventuality.

Reading Sisiutil's ALC threads is a great way to expand your armoury - pay attention to the (often conflicting) advice given by the more experienced players therein, and try to gain an idea of the strategic concerns/visions which underpin the different suggestions.

Equally, it can be very helpful to drop down a level and try something completely new. Experiment with a few radically different strategies and get a grasp on how to make them work. Then you can have them ready to deploy on your usual difficulty, as and when the circumstances demand.

One game I'll be playing and barely have the lead and then all of a sudden plumet down the score board around the middle ages until I'm last and lose, the next I'll have an atleast 1000 point lead and be kicking ass and taking names.

Third tip: a coherent strategy is infinitely more important than a leading score

You can win from the bottom of the scoreboard and lose from the top.

What matters is the creation and execution of a strategy. Reacting to the scoreboard is likely to get you beaten because it will distract you from doing what you need to do to set up a winning position.

At all times strive to choose your actions according to a coherent plan. Always act decisively, but never be too rigid. Both indecision and inflexibility are punished harshly in civ.

- My economy sucks, I'm barely holding 50% (I might be at 60% while I have gold)

Fourth tip: focus on output

The percentages are nigh-on irrelevant. What is important is how much science you are producing. So long as you can swallow the maintenance costs, more cities will always be more profitable, so keep expanding even if your science slider drops below 50%.

Of course, you need to avoid a complete crash, so courthouses and/or gold-boosting buildings are necessary to fund your expansion. But keep your eye on total beaker production - this, and not the position of the slider, is what determines your technological progress.

Similarly, raw commerce (as expressed in the GNP graph) is unimportant when compared to the actual output in terms of beakers, gold and culture. This is one reason why city specialisation is so important - a single cottage-heavy city with a 200% science modifier can often outperform an entire empire of mixed production/science cities with low modifiers.

- Everyone hates me

Fifth tip: you can't make friends with everyone

If everyone hates you then you've either neglected all of them, or you've tried to please all of them. Both are suicidal.

Choose your friends and enemies carefully. Pay close attention to the relationships between AI civs and avoid dealing with anyone who is widely hated. You can make enemies of every other civ in the world just by making a few deals with a pariah state. If you want to make friendly with another civ, then adopt their religion, give in to their demands (unless wildly unreasonable), join their wars, and don't have any dealings with their enemies.

Oops, that turned into a bit of an essay, didn't it?

Anyway, I hope some of this helps.

 

[Morgrad]

OK - here goes...

I have to agree with the unworked tiles issue. I find that 1 worker per city is about right, sometimes I'll want more (clearing jungle), but for the most part 1 per is enough - by 1410, your capital should be completely developed for 1000+ years, meaning its worker can move on to another city. Same with Pasargadae's worker.

Susa - only has 2 improved tiles. It could be working 6 cottages or 2 mined hills right now.

Ectabana - size 2 and stuck there - this could be working 3 dyes and 10 cottages. This is the only city where tiles are in the process of being improved.

Arbela - Gems + 7 cottages could be being worked, and aren't. The city is working unimproved corn - you had the technology to improve that tile 3000+ year earlier.

Pasargadae - 6 unimproved tiles are being worked. These could be cottages generating commerce. You're also running 1 priest here instead of 2 scientists. Why? Also, I don't like the city placement. 2 tiles north would lose the fish, but gain some hills, flood plains, and grassland while losing water tiles. Pigs/horse/wine - mine the hills and cottage everything else, then once you have everything you need built for science built, cottage over the mines - this could be a powerhouse science city (or a reasonable production city for awhile).

Normally I wouldn't settle 1 square from the coast, but corn/gold/marble/cow in the south-east is a city begging to be settled.

Techs: you can get Machinery and Feudalism from the only two people who don't hate you, with an opportunity to improve relations with them at the same time. Why haven't you made that trade yet?

Builds: you're building a worker (thereby stunting growth in a size 2 city) in Ectabana, but Angor Wat in the capital. Ask youself why you're building that wonder. +1 hammer per priest, allows 3 priests in its city. You can't afford to swap scientists for priests, so what good is this 500 hammer wonder going to do you? None. You could build 8 workers for the same cost (4 because of stone).

Even if everything else stayed the same (city placement, builds, etc), you could be working 25 cottages, plus 3 dye and a gem. Assuming some would be new, some would be mature towns, and some are on rivers, say 3.5 commerce each - that's 87.5 commerce/turn from cottages, 15 from dye and (I think) 5 from gems. That would more than double your total civ's commerce output..... yowza!

Don't worry yet about diplomacy or city specialization - those are topics for turning 70/30 Noble wins into 100% noble wins. For now, play a new game and don't work unimproved tiles - if you are going to grow to a point where working an unworked tile happens, then whip away the population that's working an unworked tile to make - you guess it - a worker to improve tiles.

If that alone doesn't get you to 70-80% wins on noble, then I don't know what I'm talking about.

I'm not going to do the math, but you have a massive amount of food, hammers, and commerce going to waste for no reason at all. Don't automate your workers (I didn't check to see if they were), build more of them, improve tiles, and only work improved tiles.

 

[Kennigit]

Didn't look at the save, but Morgrad has it down exactly. Unimproved tiles are a big problem and will lead to failure more so than diplomacy/city specialization problems.

It will be pretty easy for you to make that simple step- you got an effective immortal rush according to your post, so after wartime focus on getting your infrastructure up with cottages and workers.

Last note: Score is not important and is not a good judgement for whose in the lead. 400 points is not a "lead" if someone has 5+ techs ahead of you. many other factors determine who really has the best shot at winning.

 

[Sarek]

Another tip when you feel you're screwed or your strategy is off, might be to replay the "same" map again and try a different strategy.
This would give you a "heads up" and allow you to test for things you know are coming.

Normally you would never replay even a turn, but as a tutorial it might teach you some new tactics and strategies?

Sorry no Mac here otherwise I would play along if you posted a start?

 

[Tiepolo]

Thanks all, you've been a great help.

I started a new game as the Egyptians (Ramseses) on yet another fractal map. All is going well, although I'm not sure if I have everything right. I'll post a 4000 b.c save and my current save.

 

[futurehermit]

Some tips:

1) Don't ignore diplomacy. It's easy to forget about it, but it is VERY important

2) Don't break your economy going to war early. If you can afford the war then do it but if you get strung out with a pile of cities you'll just sink yourself. My rules of thumb for going to war early:

a) Keep only capital cities, holy cities, and cities that can pay for themselves (e.g., have a gold pit or something)

b) Make sure to have at least CoL or Currency, preferably both, before going to war

c) Only build as many units as you will need (tough to tell sometimes)

d) Quick wars damage your economy least; try and minimize the # of turns you will need (this can conflict with c and is tough to judge)

e) Even if you do end up hurting economically, you can recover, but you MUST watch diplomacy (have good trading partners) and you MUST build enough cottages (good players can continue to war and manage things when hurting economically, but these players also don't struggle on noble)

Hope this helps

 

[Morgrad]

Thanks all, you've been a great help.

I started a new game as the Egyptians (Ramseses) on yet another fractal map. All is going well, although I'm not sure if I have everything right. I'll post a 4000 b.c save and my current save.

You never have everything right.

Much, much better. In this case, I think you've over-done the tile improvements, only because every city has waaaaaaay more tiles to work than they have citizens to work them. Balance is certainly better than too-many tiles to work, but as you are experiencing, too-many tiles to work is dramatically better than too few.

Make sure once your war with Washington is over to switch to commerce tiles instead of production ones (not across the board, but let's get some cottages growing, yeah?)

I can't even imagine why you aren't in Slavery and cracking the whip right now. Switch to slavery and whip in every city where it's possible this turn. The GL will be built with only 9 turns needed to add the National Epic to its scientist generating tastiness, 3 or 4 courthouses will be built as well, with lots of overflow to roll into more troops for your war. One of your whips pulls 2 citizens off 3 and 4 commerce cottages (I think) - put them back on by sacrificing hammers from forest tiles. Build 'dem cottages!

Get two settlers cranked out (I'd chop him with your forested hills by turning the trees into mines) and get one due south of your capital, 1N of the wheat. With farmed wheat and the flood plain, you can work all four hils with mines - that's a decent production city. With biology you can add a plains water-wheel and a workshop - not to mention however many miscellaneous coast tiles you can grow into for some pay-for-itself commerce. It'll never be worthy of Ironworks, but it'll make some units and a little navy for you as the game progresses.

The second settler, I approve of your #4 site. Not a good city, not a bad city, but it will be a net-gain for your civ, so get it settled.

Crack the whip, make more units to Washington with, and carry on!

I am troubled that his territory isn't already scouted out, though - you should have explored all of that terrain well before he settled it and should know what is beyond.

Just remember that learning Civ is all about baby-step improvements - and you just took a BIG one in the right direction. Play a couple games where you develop your tiles and run a nice cottage economy - then come back for diplomatic and city-specialization help if you need it down the road.