Puppet states need to add policy costs like regular cities

[Ahriman]

It's an interesting idea, but that would make the situation worse I believe. Right now people are ripping their hair out when a puppet builds a barracks. That's only a 1 in 4 chance of happening most of the time. Imagine how frustrating it will be when puppets start building temples that don't give benefits?

If you blocked puppets from earning culture, you would also block them from building culture buildings.
Also, not sure where you get 1 in 4 chance from, every puppet builds a barracks as ~its 3rd-4th building (nearly always monument, temple, barracks), and an armory at ~6th building.

 

[MaXimillionZero]

If you blocked puppets from earning culture, you would also block them from building culture buildings.

Just like they blocked them from building units and thus also blocked them from building unit production buildings?

 

[Celevin]

Here's my idea, which has been echoed in this thread. I'm a bit worried it's such a change that it won't be a "fix" compared to a "rebalancing". I'm very wary about this because I want to focus on fixing the game before considering any drastic changes.

What I don't like and it goes against Sid Meier's philosophy is that I can't control my puppets at all. It's no fun. I can't control their growth, so they suck up happiness, they give me extra maintenance, and I can't do anything. I hate it.

I propose the following.
1) You can control puppets like regular cities
2) They do NOT contribute to your policy costs, or add unhappiness
3) They do NOT give culture, science, gold, or anything to your empire
4) Maritime, policy, and other bonuses do NOT affect them
5) You can choose what regular buildings you want to build for your puppet, except for the courthouse
6) When you annex them, the normal happiness penalties apply and they function just like an annexed city

 

[AtriumComplex]

I've done both One-city puppeting of everything and raze-resettle. With raze resettle you can purchase buildings immediately (important when you hit the happy cap) and also manufacture units close to your frontline. Imo, the only reason to puppet is for capitals (develop the land and keep unhappiness low until you can afford to annex) or if you're playing a culture game.

 

[Martin Alvito]

I propose the following.
1) You can control puppets like regular cities
2) They do NOT contribute to your policy costs, or add unhappiness
3) They do NOT give culture, science, gold, or anything to your empire
4) Maritime, policy, and other bonuses do NOT affect them
5) You can choose what regular buildings you want to build for your puppet, except for the courthouse
6) When you annex them, the normal happiness penalties apply and they function just like an annexed city

I'll just send a battery of Workers to Mine and Mill everything, then turn puppets into unit factories. At a minimum, you'd have to prevent it from building units. Even then, it's a no-brainer to puppet the city, build desired infrastructure, then flip it unless it has something hot like Stonehenge in it. And you'd still have to make unhappiness meaningful to prevent the mass flip.

 

[ShaqFu]

Having puppets just sit in a sort of city buffer - not doing anything, but not hurting - until you want to annex isn't a terrible idea. I suspect that was the design goal, where it was just a temporary state until you got your empire back together after a big conquest. Instead, they're better than new/annexed cities, which is really not what they're supposed to be.

If you could have puppet states grow, but supply nothing else, that might fix them. You're still getting a benefit over raze/resettle, since they're pre-grown and keep some infrastructure/improvements from when you took them, but they're also not running your economy.

 

[patrickkrebs]

Watch the puppets build barracks, military academies, etc. and then rage as you run out of gold.

What difficulty are you playing at?

I agree.... DO NOT IMPLEMENT PUPPET COSTS.

 

[padlock]

I completely agree with the OP. Puppets should increase SP costs.

Puppets should be thought of as a stop gap solution with annexing being the ultimate goal. That's not the way it is now, especially if you're going for a cultural victory.

I think puppets should be treated exactly like regular cities (including you being able to choose what they produce with 2 exceptions)

1. They don't produce the extra unhappiness that pre-courthouse annexed cities do
2. They only contribute 50% of their gold, science and culture to your empire.

 

[Chieron]

Maybe each puppet city needs its own budget, giving you, say, 50% of the surplusses (and not building into losses)
You should not get culture from them, and maybe they should not get any bonuses from you either (like they are their own featureless civ in that regard, also, no social policy effects). I mean, a puppet state does represent some semi-independent country, subjugated but not assimilated. Very much like city-states.

puppets should not increase SP costs, but should not contribute either.
they should not cost you money, but should not contribute all that much either.
I see them similar to the city states, but blocking terrain+providing ressources with no worries about influence.

 

[alcaras]

I'd love to see a mod that just disables Puppet states -- i.e. Annex or Raze are your only two options, both for you and the AI.

 

[Roxlimn]

Solution:

Puppets give half gold, half science, and add to policy costs. Also, they only make military units that can't be deleted - they are controlled by the AI, but paid for by you.

 

[Celevin]

I'd love to see a mod that just disables Puppet states -- i.e. Annex or Raze are your only two options, both for you and the AI.

That's probably the most blunt, and best solution I've heard. Just garbage puppets entirely.

The next problem I'll run into is how you save 5 gold and happiness by razing an annexed city and rebuilding it. But that's minor compared to the puppet dominance in comparison.

 

[Roxlimn]

Don't need a mod to disable Puppet States. Just don't puppet. Problem solved.

Or, if you puppet, don't do shenanigans to try to control what they build.

 

[Common Sensei]

That's probably the most blunt, and best solution I've heard. Just garbage puppets entirely.

The next problem I'll run into is how you save 5 gold and happiness by razing an annexed city and rebuilding it. But that's minor compared to the puppet dominance in comparison.

Since you aren't supposed to be able to raze the capitals of other civs, that might have to be the one exception that could still be made a puppet.

 

[Celevin]

Don't need a mod to disable Puppet States. Just don't puppet. Problem solved.

Or, if you puppet, don't do shenanigans to try to control what they build.

No, that's not a solution. Coms puppet too, and other people's good games need to be taken under consideration on these forums.

Honestly the reason I play and comment the way I do is because the game is COMPLETELY unbalanced. I want this fixed, so I raise my points and arguments through examples. If you want to go play your way and don't care about certain advantages, go and do it. This is a community, and a game that is a lot more than your own personal sandbox.

 

[Roxlimn]

Celevin:

Certain parts of the game work better than intended. Certain limitations turn out to have workarounds. I don't think this makes the game COMPLETELY unbalanced.

It's nice that you find it entertaining to find loopholes in the game. Maybe it will fix issues that other players are finding to be burdensome. More power.

That said, if a player finds puppets too powerful, then not using them is a valid solution, no? Who cares if the AI uses it? Clearly, it's not capable of the same kind of abuse you're doing or it would be much more powerful than it is.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Here's my idea, which has been echoed in this thread. I'm a bit worried it's such a change that it won't be a "fix" compared to a "rebalancing". I'm very wary about this because I want to focus on fixing the game before considering any drastic changes.

What I don't like and it goes against Sid Meier's philosophy is that I can't control my puppets at all. It's no fun. I can't control their growth, so they suck up happiness, they give me extra maintenance, and I can't do anything. I hate it.

I propose the following.
1) You can control puppets like regular cities
2) They do NOT contribute to your policy costs, or add unhappiness
3) They do NOT give culture, science, gold, or anything to your empire
4) Maritime, policy, and other bonuses do NOT affect them
5) You can choose what regular buildings you want to build for your puppet, except for the courthouse
6) When you annex them, the normal happiness penalties apply and they function just like an annexed city

I'd add/keep the No units/No Wonders restriction.

 

[ohioastronomy]

That's probably the most blunt, and best solution I've heard. Just garbage puppets entirely.

The next problem I'll run into is how you save 5 gold and happiness by razing an annexed city and rebuilding it. But that's minor compared to the puppet dominance in comparison.

This will end up forcing you in practice to raze everything except capitals - and force you to keep enemy capital cities. It's already ridiculous that the best strategy for a culture win is a single city. It'd be more bizarre if taking Rome and Beijing crippled your chance of winning because of silly scaling.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

This will end up forcing you in practice to raze everything except capitals - and force you to keep enemy capital cities. It's already ridiculous that the best strategy for a culture win is a single city. It'd be more bizarre if taking Rome and Beijing crippled your chance of winning because of silly scaling.

You don't save 5 gold AND happiness, you save 5 gold (if you would have built a courthouse) OR Happiness (if you wouldn't have).

 

[Celevin]

I'd add/keep the No units/No Wonders restriction.

Yeah, that was intended, I screwed up. Honestly I wonder if they could be fixed at all, I'd rather play without.

If I were designing it, I'd have it as a simple annexing system with no puppets at all. Annexing would just start at -x happiness, and decrease every turn until it went away. The current system of annexing just makes it better to raze the city and build a new one, if there's no wonders in it.