Pyramids overpowered
- Thread starter TomOC
- Start date
CyberChrist
You caught my attention
Pyramids would make more sense if it offered a more specific set of Civics rather than opening up for all the Government ones
Hereditary Rule, Serfdom and Organized Religion would be a good spread IMHO, still usefull but no longer make or break.
Hereditary Rule, Serfdom and Organized Religion would be a good spread IMHO, still usefull but no longer make or break.
chewbaccad
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2005
- Messages
- 92
I find the Pyramids to be powerful, but not overpowered. As others have said, you'll waste more time than it's worth unless your civ is already outfitted with the tools for quick building them.
The Pyramids are underpowered imo. They are practically the only means of keeping yourself in the game if you miss out (or deliberately avoid) the religion route. This is especially true if you find yourself on a continent by yourself or with another non-religious civ. By the time you get to Monarchy you've probably already wasted turns languishing at size 5 cities.
CyberChrist said:
This sounds much more reasonable.This way the one who gets it does not have a big jump ahead of everyone else, just a small jump, which is what it should be. But, with that change, I would add that it should take a little less hammers to build it.
I do like the fact that after getting the Pyramids, you still have to research the tech for that specific civic- not only to advance, but to get the other benefits of that tech. Such as, the Hereditary rule tech also gives the ability to produce wine (although I don't see the connection in real life).
Tholomeo
Chieftain
Probably it's difference in psychology. If I have money, I can't wait for anything to be produced "naturally". I always rush the production. Also, I like grasslands, plains, flood plains, and forests - I build cottages, farms, and later, lumbermills and wind/watermills - I have few hammers and huge commerce.
Instant_Cereal
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2005
- Messages
- 264
Don't understand why people claim the pyramids are overpowered. Sure, they give me a boost with government civics, but that alone hasn't exactly made or broke my games on prince and monarch difficulties with epic speed. Normally when I complete them, a few AI civs already have monarchy. In fact, I find building them to be awfully time consuming and thus usually weakens my capital for a period of time. Tell you one thing, don't even bother making the pyramids without stone on epic speed and on higher levels; it'll take you eons to complete them lol.
But I prefer Civ4's pyramids over Civ2's. Granarys in every city in Civ2 was so useless, as were granarys themselves, and Civ4's granarys don't take long to build (especially if you're expansive). Pyramids in Civ4 take a long time to build, but they actually have value now and you get a greater sense of accomplishment when you complete them before someone else does.
But I prefer Civ4's pyramids over Civ2's. Granarys in every city in Civ2 was so useless, as were granarys themselves, and Civ4's granarys don't take long to build (especially if you're expansive). Pyramids in Civ4 take a long time to build, but they actually have value now and you get a greater sense of accomplishment when you complete them before someone else does.
Subtestube
Chieftain
I agree with those who've said that the Pyramids are not overpowered - when I do get them, I don't go for Sufferage at all (Representation all the way - ++Happiness in what is usually all your cities at the time, and more science!). If you need early rushes, use Slavery - I know you lose Pop, but often it's worth it, and the cities are usually so small after slavery rushes that you don't suffer for the unhappiness in any case.
Universal Sufferage only becomes really useful later on when you have a massive treasury and lots and lots of towns (at least in my style of play). I also think that Granaries in every city would be more overpowered than all the gov civics, to be honest - that health bonus is really helpful, and it saves heaps of build time if you want your cities to grow fast.
Universal Sufferage only becomes really useful later on when you have a massive treasury and lots and lots of towns (at least in my style of play). I also think that Granaries in every city would be more overpowered than all the gov civics, to be honest - that health bonus is really helpful, and it saves heaps of build time if you want your cities to grow fast.
Instant_Cereal said:
Well, I noticed after getting the Pyramids in my last game, I can adjust my science slider from 60% to 80%-90%, and still be in the green with gold accumulating. I think that is a BIG boost. I was behind in techs, and now after about 15 turns I actually have techs to trade (I got 3 techs ahead of most of the other civs).
I think the idea behind the "boosts" the wonders gives you should all balance out in the end with regards to each civ getting couple of wonders. I see no way to balance out the gold surplus you can achieve by being able to use advanced civics very early in the game. That lack of balance is when I believe a wonder becomes overpowered.
King Flevance
Deity
I can see how someone would see the Pyramids as overpowering for 2 reasons. These are my own strategies with it.
1. You are able to issue a police state in early warfare, so if you are cultural and have high populations you can dominate pretty early issuing a police state in the medieval era while your enemies have to suffer from war weariness. This one is not a real big deal, but also as an added little tid bit representation serves you well early on also when not at war if you took time to utilize some libraries as well.
2. They start you off making Great Engineers real early. I know it doesn't sound like much but when you save the engie for when its time to build the next Wonder, and you finish it in 1 turn, like the sistyne chapel or something it can be a very useful tool compared to the other early wonders.
I know these arent 'Incredible Hulk' overpowering effects. I wont even go so far as to say that the Pyramids are overpowered. I would say they are over powered versus the other 'Pre-Classical' Wonders. I am a fan of Police State though if I can use it. Also, from the Pyramids mixed with a Forge I can put out some good Engineers. Insurance to get alot of wonders if implying a caste system as well.
1. You are able to issue a police state in early warfare, so if you are cultural and have high populations you can dominate pretty early issuing a police state in the medieval era while your enemies have to suffer from war weariness. This one is not a real big deal, but also as an added little tid bit representation serves you well early on also when not at war if you took time to utilize some libraries as well.
2. They start you off making Great Engineers real early. I know it doesn't sound like much but when you save the engie for when its time to build the next Wonder, and you finish it in 1 turn, like the sistyne chapel or something it can be a very useful tool compared to the other early wonders.
I know these arent 'Incredible Hulk' overpowering effects. I wont even go so far as to say that the Pyramids are overpowered. I would say they are over powered versus the other 'Pre-Classical' Wonders. I am a fan of Police State though if I can use it. Also, from the Pyramids mixed with a Forge I can put out some good Engineers. Insurance to get alot of wonders if implying a caste system as well.
King Flevance
Deity
Ah, I did not know that. Hadn't tried yet. The idea came to me as I was typing that whole thing out. Was gonna go do it in my current game when I loaded it back up but now I wont mess with it. Ignore that last line then. 
EDIT: Although now that I think of it I remember a game where a city had 'auto-managed' itself to have about 4-5 engineers. I wish I had that game saved somewhere so I could see how I did it, or it did it. :/
EDIT: Although now that I think of it I remember a game where a city had 'auto-managed' itself to have about 4-5 engineers. I wish I had that game saved somewhere so I could see how I did it, or it did it. :/
TomOC said:
For you to get that much of an economic boost, you must have switched to representation and the previously unhappy people in your biggest 6 cities went back to work (probably getting you a lot more gold). It's hardly overpowered when all it does is sort out a bit of happiness.
The Pyramids are definitely not overpowered. They give you a lot of flexibility early on, but they don't help THAT much. Hereditary Rule is not far off in the tech tree. Representation is only really useful if you can afford to designate more than just a few specialists, or in combination with other wonders/civics. Police State that early is really good for warmongers, but if not, doesn't help. Universal Suffrage won't be good until you actually get towns.
I think the wonder is about on par with most of the other early wonders. Gives some good benefits, but nothing really that "game breaking", unless you count Police State for warmongers.
I think the wonder is about on par with most of the other early wonders. Gives some good benefits, but nothing really that "game breaking", unless you count Police State for warmongers.
King Flevance said:
Interesting points. I did get about 3 Great Engineers (used on other wonders as they became available).
Oggums said:
Represention civic.
Jimbo30 said:
I think you are underestimating the "bit of happiness" that representaion gives you. To have a happy civ is to have a productive civ. In the end it gives you a production boost (military) as well as an economic boost (research), allowing whoever owns the pyramids to out produce, and out research other civs in the very critical early stages of the game.
T~
rabottens
Warlord
I always switch off tech trading so any ai advantage on tech does not get traded with the rest of the ai. Kinda takes the sting out of it.
I don't think they are overpowered. Sure, representation is a great boost and all that; but they take a long time to make - you could have made a few more cities instead. I only go for pyrimids under ideal cirumstances (stone, a city with good productivity, no immediate threats, no other pressing priorities, etc.)
Instant_Cereal said:
I never saw it that way. Granaries allowed much faster expansion of cities in Civ II, and having pyramids meant you could expand faster without worrying about building the granaries in each city. The pyramids was one of my favourate wonders in Civ II as it is now with Civ IV.
I think the Pyramids are just about right, powerful but not overpowering. They can really help give a boost, but having them doesnt ensure victory or victory for your neighbors if they build them. They take a lot of resources and time to build, so they need to be worth building. In the right civilization, the Pyramids can be incredible, but the same can be said for many other wonders as well. Quite a few wonders can give you a huge boost and a leg up over other civilizations, but I think that is the way wonders should be. They should be useful, but not a necessity like in past civs. If someone else builds the Pyramids, it is a tad upsetting but not something that will stop me from winning.
