Pyrezombies: Imbalanced?

[Thunder_Gr]

One turn is all you need to create an expendable army instantly from nothing, take a city with them, and be able to do it all over again.

It can be done, if the cities are close to eachother and have not many defenders. But in order to do it, you must have a few death mana sources + combat 5 + Spell Extension II to your Eater for this to work, and the enemy must be really careless with the defences. If you sum it up, you can never really have more units+summons than the opposition can field. Even with 10 warriors the enemy can prevent you from taking the city, since it does not matter how strong the defenders are, just so that the summons cannot break through. In addition, the Eater of Dreams needs at least 3 turns to reach the new city, since he won't have mobility, most likely(if he was up to the task of tackling the city with summons), in order to repeat the process.

I don't say it cannot be done, on the contrary, this is what the unit is designed for. It is very powerful, but if it wasn't, the Sheaim would have no purpose in this game, apart from being someone for the other civs to feast on.

 

[WarKirby]

2) If you want to argue using the "AV has diseased corpses" line, I will have to respond with the common note that "AV can be adopted by any civ. So you still get your champions, phalanxes, berserkers and the diseased corpses.

Oh, there is a point to be made here, too.

Any civ can adopt any religion, yes. But other civs have their own melee units. You don't need diseased corpses when you have champions, and vice versa. Religion specific units are often a matter of personal preference.

The Sheiam can use religious units to make up for their lack of standard buildable melee, allowing them to neutralize their primary weakness. Ergo, they gain more benefit from such units than most other civs. Diseased corpses, and later, Beasts of Agares, can easily make up for the lack of champions, and phalanxes. And as for berserkers, that's what the Summon Balor spell is for. Profanes cast that, AV high priest.

 

[WarKirby]

But, if you are user eater of dreams, you have to somehow eat the population, summon the creatures, and get them within range of the next city within 2 turns, which is quite tricky.

What do you mean "somehow" ?
it's pretty easy, this is what spell extension promotions are for. Wraiths will usually do the job nicely. Air Elementals if you have to travel a long distance.

As Sheiam, you're going to have 2 death mana from building the Tower of Necromancy + your starting one, in addition to your wraiths starting with Strong. Wraiths are pretty powerful things.

If not, all you have done is created a defense force of the newly conquered city... and are then defending a city you just destroyed even harder. It could be a nice tactic if you intend to eventually jsut raze the city, but it is not a very viable offensive tactic.

I disagree, it's a very viable tactic. Razing cities raises the AC, which is exactly what you want. By the time you reach strength of Will, you're pretty much going to be done with expansion.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

If they're supposed to be a champion unit, then they should come at the same time as champions. Would you not think it overpowered if a civ got champions at bronze working?

I did say a less than adequate version of a champion. I don't know of any champions with strength 4. Do you?

If your enemy can beat you in the long run, that doesn't make much difference when you beat them now. there's no long run when everyone is dead. Or at least, enough people to build an empire capable of spamming more pyre zombies than you know what to do with.

Well, this is true about the Clan and the Doviello. They can beat you now. Not bronze working, not Sorcery, NOW, so, what is the point of playing against them, if, as you said, there is no long run when everyone is dead?

 

[WarKirby]

Oh, and also, the sheiam are still capable of making ranged units, remember. Spamming arquebuses is extremely potent in the lategame, as they're good all round, ignore city defense, and have no building requirement.

 

[WarKirby]

I did say a less than adequate version of a champion. I don't know of any champions with strength 4. Do you?

Well, that's strength 5 once you build the tower of necromancy, which isn't too far in, and much more achievable to Sheiam than most, due to them starting with half of the required mana. I do know of at least one strength 5 Champion, the Calabim Vampires.

Being undead has it's advantages, too.

Well, this is true about the Clan and the Doviello. They can beat you now. Not bronze working, not Sorcery, NOW, so, what is the point of playing against them, if, as you said, there is no long run when everyone is dead?

But they don't explode when you kill them. They're much easier to survive. The Sheiam tend to devastate me a lot more with PZ spamming, than Sons of Asena and wolf riders do. The latter units you can just take on in normal combat. with your own big stacks.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Oh, there is a point to be made here, too.

Any civ can adopt any religion, yes. But other civs have their own melee units. You don't need diseased corpses when you have champions, and vice versa. Religion specific units are often a matter of personal preference.

The Sheiam can use religious units to make up for their lack of standard buildable melee, allowing them to neutralize their primary weakness. Ergo, they gain more benefit from such units than most other civs. Diseased corpses, and later, Beasts of Agares, can easily make up for the lack of champions, and phalanxes. And as for berserkers, that's what the Summon Balor spell is for. Profanes cast that, AV high priest.

Again, all civs build their respective religious units. It is not a Sheaim thing. And so do the High Priests. Another handicap for the Sheaim is that, in order to equalise their lack of a metal line, they had to go into both, Arcane and Divine lines. This is a real killer you know because, they may not exist until them, except if they manage to have a unit that can give them a chance to survive that far in the game.
Wait a minute, did you say Pyre Zombies?

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Oh, and also, the sheiam are still capable of making ranged units, remember. Spamming arquebuses is extremely potent in the lategame, as they're good all round, ignore city defense, and have no building requirement.

So can everyone else. Sheaim late game is a winner IMO. they need no arquebuses.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Being undead has it's advantages, too.

And disadvandages. Thus balanced, thus we have reached a conclusion, right?

But they don't explode when you kill them. They're much easier to survive. The Sheiam tend to devastate me a lot more with PZ spamming, than Sons of Asena and wolf riders do. The latter units you can just take on in normal combat. with your own big stacks.

Really? Interesting point of view. I'll remember that next time the Clan marches in my land with their hundreds? or maybe thousands? rider units, moving at speed 3 that I have no chance against whatsoever.

I would prefer a stack of pyre zombies, moving 1 square at a time, that I can weaken with Maelstorms, Fireballs(I have killed many pyrezombies with fireballs. They may have resistance, but they are the same strength. Effectively, the fireball has 25% to kill a Pyre Zombie outright, more with empore promotions), catapults, horse archers, etc. Not to mention the ability to destroy them using destroy undead and neutralise them with resistances.

 

[AngelGabriel]

Yesterday I tried my beloved way of conquering: Spam the damn AI with Pyre Zombies. They attacked, they exploded, they hurt my own stack Oô I didn't remember they can hurt my own stack ... they didn't do it everytime. The next city everything seemed normal. What did the AI have to counter my explosions?

 

[Rystic]

I still support the Spring option.

 

[Senethro]

I know its undergone several iterations, but what is the current Pyre Zombie explosion mechanism THIS patch and under what conditions does "friendly fire" happen?

 

[Gelvan]

I don't think Pyre Zombie's Explosion Skills are Overpowered.
Neither was Meteor Swarm.