Pyrezombies: Imbalanced?

[AngelGabriel]

"The AI, on the other hand, doesn't abuse them so there's not an issue with that so much."

Everytime the Sheaim settle next to me and start to attack during wartime they come with a stack of at least 6-7 Pyre Zombies which tend to annihilate my defense-troops. It's what the AI does - spamming units and if they spam PZs you're screwed.

Problem is that you can't do anything against the explosions in the early game, neither can the AI.

"but the Sheaim don't have a melee unit after them"

What about those Diseased Corpses (?) you get if converting to AV? It's not that you're totally alone without any other units. Besides: You got summoner mages - that's pretty strong, especially if you use death mana.

 

[KillerClowns]

I like pie.
Fire-resistance-flavored pie, to be exact.
I find that a hero (e.g. Saverous) with Fire Resistance (being a Demon may also have helped) can hold off startling numbers of Pyre Zombies. Combined with Undead Slaying and Shock promos, and the Pyre Zombies are rendered far weaker. Unfortunately, that presently means practically giving specialist anti-Pyre-Zombie promotions at the cost of, well, everything else. Earlier access to Magic Resistance would be nice.

 

[WarKirby]

They are overpowered, but the Sheaim don't have a melee unit after them, so they have to spam them because they won't be able to beat later units any other way.

They have planar gates which bring tar demons, revellers, minotaurs, manticores, succubi

And I'm pretty sure the Sheiam can make eidolons, too. And beasts of Agares

 

[WarKirby]

The big prroblem with pyre zombies, as was pointed out in the other thread, is that they remain a viable unit choice forever. You can just spam them against musketmen, phalanxes, heroes, paladins, crossbowmen. Anything. They don't need to win. In fact, you don't WANT them to win. Their selfdestruct attack is so horribly powerful you can just spam them endlessly and use something slightly stronger to mop up the mess afterwards.

It could actually be argued that pyre zombies become STRONGER as time goes on. As your empire expands, and you research more industral techs, your production base grows. With all other civs, new, more powerful units, are being discovered to use this new production. With the sheiam, you can continue cranking out pyre zombies at an ever increasing rate. Outpacing your enemy's more powerful units.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

It could actually be argued that pyre zombies become STRONGER as time goes on. As your empire expands, and you research more industral techs, your production base grows.

If we look at Pyre Zombie effectiveness as a function of time, it decreases dramatically after a certain point not to far in the tech tree. This point can come at Life II+sorcery, it can come when you can field a decent number of fire resistant units, it can come when you have powerful stack busters. There are probably other anti-PZ 'milestones' that I've overlooked. Suffice it to say, the argument that PZ's become stronger as time increases is blatantly false because there are points (Life II being a perfect example) where PZ effectiveness approaches zero. This is the only comment I'm going to interject because I've vented plenty of my own thoughts in the other thread, and now I'm curious as to what a larger sample size thinks.

So it seams pretty clear (thus far) with an (almost) 2:1 ratio that most people believe PZ's are not particularly overpowered. Good thing the Pie option isn't wining like in my samhain poll...

 

[Senethro]

The problem here is that most people are wrong because they play singleplayer on low difficulties.

 

[Seven05]

So it seams pretty clear (thus far) with an (almost) 2:1 ratio that most people believe PZ's are not particularly overpowered. Good thing the Pie option isn't wining like in my samhain poll...

Actually, since it's only 2:1 it's a pretty good indication that it is more than a few isolated people that have issues with it and therefore it's worthy of consideration.

Unfortunately, pie is like cake, it's a lie. We should try to help those poor misguided souls.

 

[Neomega]

If we look at Pyre Zombie effectiveness as a function of time, it decreases dramatically after a certain point not to far in the tech tree. This point can come at Life II+sorcery, it can come when you can field a decent number of fire resistant units, it can come when you have powerful stack busters. There are probably other anti-PZ 'milestones' that I've overlooked. Suffice it to say, the argument that PZ's become stronger as time increases is blatantly false because there are points (Life II being a perfect example) where PZ effectiveness approaches zero. This is the only comment I'm going to interject because I've vented plenty of my own thoughts in the other thread, and now I'm curious as to what a larger sample size thinks.

So it seams pretty clear (thus far) with an (almost) 2:1 ratio that most people believe PZ's are not particularly overpowered. Good thing the Pie option isn't wining like in my samhain poll...

try this poll with dragonslayers, or divided souls, or ghosts, or amurite swordsmen, or any toher UU. It would be far more lopsided. Furthermore, you didn't make this a yes-no poll, but had to throw in the negatively weighted word "nerf", so this wasn't just an opinion on whether they are unbalanced or not, but also, an opinion on how they should be more blanced.

As far as balance for the sheaim as a whole, (whihc is a differnet topic than the power of pyre zombies), perhaps skeleton upgrades should be an option for them. I would love to see powerful skeleton mages or dragons or generals or bone golems a la Baldur's gate.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

When it comes to "what the most people think", it seems that the losing side has also the arguments to support that "most people are wrong". Sometimes accepting the fact that your opinion is not what "most people" agree with, is a good thing.

 

[Blackmantle]

@ Neomega: No, you err here.
The power of Pyre Zombies is precisely not a different topic than the balance for the sheaim as a whole.

In FFH2 civs are balanced on civ-level (as per Kael) not on feature level.
So all inseparable parts of a civ (like these Zombies since non-Sheaim, non-tolerant can't build them) are precisely that topic. Why fix something that isn't broke? (in this case the Sheaim civ.)

(Your other examples which are just as specific only further reinforce the point that the community has quite got that.)


That's why things like changes to overall terrain improvements or Wonders for everyone or techs are an easier thing overall. Unless they unusually effect some civs more than others. Thus those changes have been easy to the Team and Kael recently.

That might have misled you on the matter.
When it comes to individual features of civs only things of a power level like Kyleens Puppets or Meteor Swarm deserve a Nerf (imo but that point has been supported ).

Pyre Zombies are not all that of a big deal. And i have faced them quite often (even though the Sheaim sometimes tend to go under early in the games i play. Sometimes by my hand. Since they seem to go for Adepts early making them quite interesting targets for early rushes since even in higher difficulties that takes its time. And if they ain't near me the Zombies come late.). There are other things which are similarly annoying in the Hands of the AI if you are unprepared.

Also any perceived AI inability to cope with them when used by players is another bad thing to base such a decision on since that aspects of AI have just been started to be tweaked. If at all.
(on that count summons are actually worse since they are free. As is nearly any other Feature of FFH2 a player uses well. Its not for nothing that experienced players here play mostly in the emperor to deity range... Surely not just pyre Zombies. The remedy is not to kill all those features but to remedy the AI ability to cope with the game as a whole.)


Also your point about players being protective of certain features doesn't really hold water in this forums where far harder changes / nerfs and cuts have been accepted, affirmed or even cherished by the majority.
(and Kael seems to have an increasing likeness to simpliy cut general things now as soon as someone just mentions it being bad / useless or overpowered and sometimes doesn't even wait for a lot of feedback.
But don't expect him to act on things that make civs unique (I doubt someone would question that the Zombies are one of the Shaim unique points). I'm sure he is far more reluctant to simply make them nonviable. Also he himself intensively tested just that unit and balanced it to a good point in his evaluation after he was stomped by them in playtesting. So they are already nerfed from the concept and put to a point where Kael thought they were allright overall.).

I would argue on the contrary that these forums are rather on the nerf-rabid side of the divide. Imo some times this has gone over the top (but then I'm not actually fond of things getting cut haphazardly left and right. So maybe i am a bit protective of some features.
Then again. I seldomly play the Sheaim myself so this one wouldn't hurt me to much. But i believe it would hurt the game as a whole.).


Add that FFH2s design focus is replayability and not maximum balance and you might get the picture why the community has clearly not agreed on here (possible extrem swing might still be possible. We will see...).

All said imo with the many tried and tested counters and the new power of destroy undead it seems overall allright now.

Also anything beyond calling it a a nerf would be a cosywash here if you demand them to be reduced in power.
Given that other threads / posts cry for just that in word.
So please don't try to deceive the community here with hard intent in words of smooth packing.

+ the Sheaim just got nerfed to fix a broken feature of a leader non-sheaim.
So yay nerf them again because they deserve to be unplayable so you don't have to endure the pyre-zombies in your games any longer...
Imo the opposite might! be in order right now (not a strong need though, they still should be playable.).



@ Senethro: And your mystical power of over-the-net-divination has allowed you to hack the computers of the voters who didn't agree with you so that you can see what difficulty they are playing?
Or is that just an assumption which might be most easily remedied when just taking a small peak on the thread in the strategy subforums which dealt just with the matter of Pyre-Zombies and what to do against them (and that was about Superstacks with 2 + Promotions out of the box early in the game. Where Tier 2 counters is the max possible without insane luck. With a bulb possibly priests. But that is also luck dependent.)?

If the later i advise you take a look there. There is alot in this thread about things of equal Tier and cost. Which might or might not also apply to multiplayer (at least it should be easier to field equal tier than in high difficulties vs. AI.). At least take the time to inform yourselves a bit. Heck you might even get ideas of what to do to handle them if you face them.

Unless of course you think that emperor-immortal difficulty singleplayer on overpopulated maps is low difficulty. In which case you might have a point. But then your comment might be viewed as deity-elitist...


+ would you please elaborate on why people playing singleplayer are wrong on the issue when minding that the Mod was designed mainly for best singleplayer! experience.
With multiplayer being a supported and cared for feature which still might not be as important in comparison.
Couldn't we just turn that point right on its head and still be closer to reality than what you said? (Still not accurate. I give you so much.)


@ Seven05: Your post was a bit ironic / pun in parts, right? Just to be sure... Yours seems to be the only post of those 3 which actually not sounds dead-serious trough and through.

 

[Neomega]

@ Neomega: No, you err here.
The power of Pyre Zombies is precisely not a different topic than the balance for the sheaim as a whole.

Actually, it is. the subject was not are the sheaim overpowered.

Pyre Zombies are not all that of a big deal. And i have faced them quite often. There are other things which are similarly annoying in the Hands of the AI if you are unprepared.

I think I have already stated in this thread, in the hands of the Ai they are pretty much like any other unit.

I would argue on the contrary that these forums are rather on the nerf-rabid side of the divide.

Good luck with that argument.

All said imo with the many tried and tested counters and the new power of destroy undead it seems overall allright now.

There is another thread that has discussed "destroy undead", which is unavailable until sorcery. Pyre Zombies come at bronze working.

Also anything beyond a nerf would be a cosywash here if you demand them to be reduced in power.
Given that other threads cry for just that in word.
So please don't try to deceive the community here with hard words in smooth packing.

"Deceive the community"... OK, guy.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

Furthermore, you didn't make this a yes-no poll, but had to throw in the negatively weighted word "nerf", so this wasn't just an opinion on whether they are unbalanced or not, but also, an opinion on how they should be more blanced.

This made me chuckle a bit. In the other thread you repeatedly reiterated that PZ's were unbalanced (many times in bold) and that some form of change was necessary to effect a reduction of their power.

In computer gaming, a nerf is a change to a game that reduces the desirability or effectiveness of a particular game element.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerf_(computer_gaming)

You proposed/supported changes that would tone down PZ effectiveness. That is the definition of the word nerf. If Pyrezombies are reduced in effectiveness in any way, such as allowing spring to disable the explosion, it is a nerf by definition. Thus the poll is a yes/no poll, with a pie option for those that disagree with both sides. The only case in which the poll is not applicable is when you believe they are imbalanced but should not be changed (and there is an "other" option).

Attempting to distinguish between "nerf" and some proposed balance change is not unlike some (not all) conservative American politicians trying to draw a line between waterboarding and torture(the latter having a very negative connotation), when in fact they are one and the same. It is a cheap trick that can be and is interpreted as deceptive and is done, in many cases, to avoid a negative perception or generally accepted convention and attract public support. Hard words in smooth packing is an effective description of not describing game play changes that would reduce the effectiveness of the particular element in question (PZ's) as a nerf.

 

[Blackmantle]

Yes and thats the point if you say that pyre zombies are a problem you say the sheaim are a problem. They are an integral part of what makes the Sheaim unique.
Balancing on civ-level is FFH2s design-philosophy.
(Unless you wan't to seriously imply that they are so unbalanced as Meteor Swarm has been and totally overshadow any other options a Sheaim player has. I myself find sekleton Swarm just as interesting the rare times i played them. At least vs. AI. And skeletons can be replaced without costing a single hammer...)
You won't change that part no matter how often you repeat that you think changing the pyre zombies is different from changing the balancing of the Sheaim as a whole. Unless of course you can convince Keal that his design-philosophy is wrong to the core.
Much luck with that one.

So destroy undead is universally unavailable until sorcery? I have my doubts about that? As in i have different experience.
(augumented by that other tech path which offer alternatives are far more interesting to most civs.)
Perhaps you just have to explore the pedia / xienwolfs manual or the tech-tree a bit for other options beyond mages to cast that spell or other stack-busters / summons or similar viable counters in earlier Tier 3.

Hunters / Divided Souls come at Hunting
Horsemen / Chariots come Horseback Riding/Trade
Catapults come at construction.
Much later, indeed .

Just take a look at the strategy forums instead of conveniently ignoring that already conducted discussion. Your answers how to deal with them lie just there.

The last comment was deliberately a bit over the top. But that nerf is so a bad word is over the top as well. No?

 

[Jet]

Nerf does have a negative connotation.

 

[Blakmane]

Actually, it is. the subject was not are the sheaim overpowered.

Did you actually read his post? He was saying that nerfing a unique civ aspect is the same as nerfing the civ itself. Thus you must ask yourself, are the sheaim an overpowered civ as a whole? If the answer is no, you have no solid footing to nerf pyre zombies.
....


Anyways, I have had no problem with them. They just require some forethought, kinda like tasunke's horsemen. Pre-emptive strikes work best, rather than sitting in town and defending. On the defensive they are very poor, as long as you don't expose your stack to them. This talk of them being more powerful later on is pure nonsense. Once you have iron champions you can eat through stacks of pyre zombies at an alarming rate. Especially with fire resist.

 

[Kenjister]

I don't really think Pyre Zombies are that big of a deal.
First of all, they can be avoided with a proactive defense.
Secondly, as time progresses and they can be produced in larger numbers, Destroy Undead becomes available.
And finally, almost all of the Sheaim's Planar Gate units are inferior to Champions and buildable counterparts.

The time period where Pyre Zombies are the most effective is the early game, when you can rush. Still, it's not too much stronger than your normal Axe rush. Plus, production is low in that time and the AI loves Archers. Unless you have phenomenal production, you'll be losing troops at an astounding rate. A production focus also cripples commerce, delaying the AV and the Planar Gate techs.
I can see how that can be a problem in MP though. As for SP I think they give the AI a nice boost and aren't a game-breaking issue.
The Sheaim aren't the best in FfH, yet I don't see as many crying nerf towards the Elves. (recently) They also provide for more interesting gameplay. They force you to adapt, much like Tasunke.

 

[Blackmantle]

And (AI) Sheaim next door are such a sweet target. (as in a little stroll not a long walk. )
At times they even rush Veil (and do so at startling speeds in higher difficulties) and hand me a free Stigmata of the Unborn. At that point they usually have some adepts which complicates matters a bit (Tebryn also seems to love the catacomb libralus. No defensive units build during that time...).
But late Tier 2 is possible and that usually is enough. If they go Bronze they usually delay adepts a bit which makes them a bit easier to push over (unless they have copper hooked and i have not + no Stack-Busters or Summons at hand. Which is generally not nice even with non-pyres...)

And entropy-mana sure is fun when you gift it away to your "best friend".

 

[Kenjister]

I love conquering the Sheaim too! Plenty of cottages, open space (since they seem to beeline Bronze) and large cities! What more can you ask for?
I guess that's another argument for keeping Pyre Zombies as they are. The AI spams them, keeps them in giant stack's-o-doom, and still gets eaten alive. Production is really the key to all FfH wars (before heroes at least).

 

[Neomega]

Did you actually read his post? He was saying that nerfing a unique civ aspect is the same as nerfing the civ itself. Thus you must ask yourself, are the sheaim an overpowered civ as a whole? If the answer is no, you have no solid footing to nerf pyre zombies.

Yes, I actually read his post. And I disagreed with him. I even stated a possible way to balance the sheaim in exchange for "weakening"* the pyre zombies... or did you not read my post?

So destroy undead is universally unavailable until sorcery? I have my doubts about that? As in i have different experience.

Im done running in circles with you folks, there is a whole nother thread talking about these issues. Magically taking care of pyre zombies comes much much later, even if it is your sole goal.



*spring

 

[Earthling]

The problem here is that most people are wrong because they play singleplayer on low difficulties.

Oh, you, ohhhh, just argh

I've beaten my FfH games on immortal-deity myself just to let you know. This kind of elitism does very little for anyone though. If you're insinuating that the game should be balanced as if all players were humans (mp) then I agree that precept is correct. However within sp alone difficulty means almost nothing for balance. The AI is given ridiculous bonuses and all - so the game should not be balanced to play against a high level AI- it should be as if all players were equal (and then the AI bonuses adapted to this).

I actually voted not to change pyre zombies (whether it's called a nerf or whatever). However, I DO think the Sheiam are overpowered. I already came out in favor of reducing Summoner's bonus though so obviously doing that and weakening pyre zombies isn't a good idea. As others have said the sheiam just on their own aren't the strongest - but they'll basically default to ashen veil, which combined with their other bonuses and UU do more than enough for them by later in the game. I'd think that pyre zombies can be countered well enough if looked at from a human perspective, especially given that there are plenty of other early rush civs too. Just like civs like Doviello and Clan fall naturally behind on research, so would the Sheaim with a zombie rush that still can be decently countered. (though tbh if there's enough people giving evidence of OP-ness in mp I could change my mind, just theorycrafting here).