Quantitative Resources

Don't forget one other thing: worker jobs. It would be great to be able to set "5 iron required to build a railroad" on one tile.

The percentage tradable tag should be pretty easy -- just like the MaxGoldPerTurn flag in XML already that sets a limit on how much gold is available for trades with the AI.

Further to your tags on the resource, could you use an additional tag such as <ObseleteTechQty> which specifies the tech that makes the resources strategic use or quantity irrelevent. Once this tech is reached, the quantity is set to -1 and becomes unlimited in quantity. This way old buildings and units that still require the resource instantly get the amount required whilst the newer resources remain quantative.

This is the best idea I've heard so far. I can't believe I didn't think of it sooner!

This mod just keeps getting better and better. I can't wait to build an Oil Power Plant and Oil Refinery.... :D
 
This reminds me of Caeser III.

...Except I hope clay pits don't collapse every 5 seconds. :D


Looks to be very interesting.
 
This looks very interesting I sure will keep an eye on this thread. My main question though is if the AI is going to be able to handle this?
 
Jerrymander:
Please don't bring up the clay pits! You'll give me hives. ;)

Saarud:
I think the AI should be able to handle the basic aspects even without any coding changes. It still know how to get resources, e.g. build mines, and therefore it knows it "wants" as many as possible. As for building units, I imagine it would just build as many as it could without running out of resources. Trades are the tricky part--we have to assign values to each strategic resource, like with techs, so you don't get an equivalent of, "Sure, I'll give you Fission for Archery." But the existing framework's there, so that's not too hard.

In short, I'm confident we can handle the AI aspect of it.
 
Ok cool, then I'm confident that you guys will make it work with the AI! :goodjob:

I really don't want to hijack this thread but I had a somewhat similiar idea of how to handle resources. Well ok it's not that similiar... I keep it simple: For every instance of a resource you have you can build X amounts of units/buildings/wonders that need that resource at the same time. For example if you only have one oil you could only build 1 (for example could be 2 or whatever) oil based /unit/building/wonder at the same time. That's it... your solution is much better even if it seems harder to code.
 
Call it simplistic, but I rather like what Saarud talked about. It makes you balance resources and try to acquire more instances for strategic use, but keeps it simple and shouldn't be able to wrack havok on the gameplay. Perhaps it would also be easier to code and, if nothing else, could be used as a temporary system while a more complex quanitifed system was developed and perfected I would suggest that if you are building a wonder that requires a resource, all of one instance is used for it while under production; this would signify the incredible drain that such a project should produce on the economy.
 
Actually, I think Saarud's idea could be implemented with minimal coding as it is. Just set tanks, for example, to require 2 oil instead of one, or battleships to require 3 iron, etc. Very good simplistic model.

Of course, I really would rather see it implemented the way we talked about so 40+ posts are not wasted. :D
 
I don't think that's what he meant. My understanding was...

You have access to two Iron.
If you build a wonder that requires Iron, while you build it, that entire resource is claimed for production.
The other instance of Iron is still available for buildings, trade, or units.
Buildings and units also have a certain max number that can be produced at once per-resource.

In other words,
One instance of Iron might supply one great wonder or project.
One instance of Iron might supply two national wonders simultaniously.
One instance of Iron might supply four building projects simultaniously.
One instance of Iron might supply four unit productions simultaniously.

So, if you only have two Iron resource squares and you want to finance a navy and at the same time build a great wonder that requires Iron, you choose the wonder (takes one Iron until complete) and you can have four cities build your navy (takes the other Iron).

If you even choose multiples of two (the reason for four buildings or units or two national wonders), you can then add in the ability to mix and match. You could produce one national wonder, one building, and one unit OR two buildings and two units.
 
I understood, I just thought that might be an alternative way of implementing it in the current system without having to do lots of coding.

As for the idea itself... well, let's just say I prefer the QR way of doing it. :D
 
Update

Right now I'm adding in the infos into the SDK so that it can be read from the XML...

In addition to the new CIV4ResourceInfos.xml, CIV4LuxuryInfos.xml, and CIV4FoodInfos.xml, I'm also adding CIV4ReactionInfos.xml.

Reaction infos? What's that? Well, Processes were already taken, which I would've preferred.

Basically a Reaction will convert something (or multiple somethings) into something else. I've decided to make this as expansive as possible for it to be as versatile as possible. Instead of just converting a quantity of a resource to the quantity of another resource you will have the following potential components:

Resource Reactants
Yield Reactants
Commerce Reactants
Luxury Reactants

Resource Products
Yield Products
Commerce Products
Luxury Products

So you can put in Wool and get Textiles or put in Iron and get Steel, or put in Copper and Tin and get Bronze.

You can put in a quantity of a resource and get a source of a binary Luxury... you can also convert resources directly into food, production, commerce, gold, science or culture... or convert any one of those into a resource or luxury... or you can set up a reaction that converts from nothing into something... or one that converts from something into nothing if you just want a building to have a consumption penalty.

And the other nice thing is that if combined with mods that make Happiness and Health yields or commerces, you can convert resources and luxuries directly into happiness or health.

So the CIV4BuildingInfos.xml and CIV4ImprovementInfos.xml now have the tag <CanDoReactions/> that enables them to perform any reactions you design for them.

But also what makes this interesting is that with tech prerequisites for Reactions, you can make a building slowly become more powerful... so you can set your Factories to produce all sorts of resources, luxuries, etc., but without the technology, they won't do that reaction. Which also means that if you find a tech that allows you to perform the reaction of turning Straw into Gold in your Forge, that might be something you'll want to keep to yourself for as long as possible ;)

One of the things I really like is that now I can implement something I've wanted to do for a while... I want to make it so that for a Building to perform these reactions, you'll have to sacrifice some production in the process. So, for example, if you build a Steel Mill which can perform the reaction of Steel Processing, you take 4 units of Iron and 1 Production and convert it into 4 units of Steel. The Production consumed is intended to represent the man-hours that went into making the steel, essentially the workforce employed to do that task as opposed to training your units or constructing new buildings.

So this adds a new element because you're city is now down 1 Production per turn... Not a huge deal, but if you go and build lots of other buildings responsible for manufacturing new resources and luxuries you could end up killing your cities production since most of it will be tied up in resource production. So now you have to figure that you might want certain cities that will be in charge of resource production while others continue with unit training and other building construction.

Of course, if you hate that idea, then just change the Yield Reactants in the XML so they don't consume anything... it's all your choice.

This will also let me take out some code that will become redundant with this addition so I don't end up just dumping more and more in but rather replace existing things.

I'm also adding in at the moment Tech and Route Resource changes to Improvements just like the ones that are there already for yields. So this way, if you have an Oil Rig and it produces 5 units of Oil with a Road, it'll produce +1 Units with a Railroad, or +1 Units with discovery of Computers or whatever you want to do.
 
Dom, you definitely get 10 out of 10 for this one. I am absolutely enthralled with the features you just mentioned. I'll be most anxious to see what you come up with in the days and weeks ahead.
 
I definitely think a "maintenance" model might be better than a "stockpile" model. That said, there's overwhelming support for a stockpile model... until there are more people butting their head up against seemingly impossible obstacles, I want to help the majority realize their vision...

HOW TO KEEP THE NUMBER OF STOCKPILES DOWN

As dh_epic mentioned, it is very off putting to think that you have to manage every resource in a similar manner as the game turns into resource acounting rather than strategy.

I think we need to accept that this system would work perfectly in scenarios only and not on a grand 'whole' game scale as that would require all the resource system being quantiative as horses were strategic earlier but steel replace weaponry later and so on....

I'm glad you share my concern... but this need not be a choice between loads of complications or none at all. There's two ways to get around this problem:

One is to group the resources, as I suggested earlier. Instead of having iron, copper, and aluminum, you just have "metals". Iron is simulated by having it provide more metals than copper. Even regular hill mines provide some metals. This necessarily blurs the line between "quality" and "quantity", but it's worth it: I think quantity is a much more interesting strategic decision than quality. If we do enough of these types of groupings, we can really simplify stockpile system beyond the 40 resources in the current game, let alone 10 strategic resources.

Two is to rethink the idea of resource obsolescence. We don't think of horses as going obsolete -- at least not until the age of automobiles. But at a certain point, horses are so abundant that you no longer worry about them. Say horses become obsolete with Biology, or even sooner with Military Tradition. This isn't to say that horses don't exist beyond this point. Nor does it say that we discovered a secret to build horses out of thin air. Rather, this is to represent how horses become "infinitely" abundant once society becomes sufficiently organized. And if we can do something like this for horses, then we can definitely do it for other resources like Stone or Marble. The end result is that you're juggling fewer resources per age, even if those resources change from age to age. It helps us keep the complexity down, even as the world changes.

I frankly think we'll need to employ some combination of the two: group some resources together under a single quantity, and make other quantities irrelevant before / after a certain time.

Like I said earlier, I suspect that Firaxis's magic number is 7: 7 basic types of terrain, 7 religions, 7 original UN resolutions... maybe 8 original traits. Everything else is even less: 5 great people, 5 X 5 civic columns, 3 different yields (food/commerce/production) with 3 different kinds of commerce (culture, research, gold). Yes, there may be 40 different units in the epic game, but a player won't have to think about more than 7 different unit types on the map at a time. There might be 86 technologies, but your choices at any given moment are limited, and a technology that provides more than 3 effects is rare. More than 4 effects is even more rare.

Thinking in these terms increase our likelihood of success. It makes it easy to learn while preserving the majority of strategy. And it shows Firaxis that "improved resources" can be done in a clean and efficient way.

WHAT ABOUT FOOD?

I think there's an elephant in the room that nobody is talking about: That's the realism of food scarcity in itself.

Corn, Rice, even Cows aren't really considered hard to come by these days. How is it realistic that these things are on single tiles, and not everywhere? What the heck are they farming on those empty grassland tiles that lets them pump out 3 food?

WARNING: there be dragons here! Thinking about this raises a lot of complex issues.

We get tempted into wondering about food and realism. Axing the food resources would be acceptable: farms already produce more food. But it's more appealing to a mediocre designer to just pile on features: let's create a system where you can breed cows and put them on every tile! Allow workers to plant wheat and corn, depending on which they want more of!

As people start to dig through the game for realism, the entire economic model comes apart. You have to understand that some things aren't here for realism, but for gameplay. The reason why special tiles with special yields is an improvement on Civ 1 is "biggest isn't always the best": someone with a few high resource cities might do equally well as someone with more cities spread out along regular land. If food resources are everywhere/nowhere, then you lose that.

That's the reason we wouldn't want to get into quantifying who has more cows. Nobody really cares. At the end of the day we HAVE the key strategic quantity already in the game:

It's called "food". That distills 11 resources down to a single quantity right off the bat. I think this is the way to go.

We potentially lose two things doing this. What about the special ability of four buildings (Grocers, Granaries, Harbors and Supermarkets)? What about the health benefit of these resources?

One answer is that we don't have to lose this: we just don't quantify it. One cow gives you food and activates certain health/building bonuses. But two cows doesn't give you extra health/building bonuses. It only gives you extra food.

The other answer is that it might not be so bad to lose the health/building bonuses for food altogether. Losing some complexities would justify and balance the added complexity of this quantity system in the first place.
 
I think we should wait and see what Dom has done with the SDK before arguing for a complete change of the entire system we've discussed thus far.

Having said that, I must declare my opposition to any kind of grouping of iron, copper, and bronze into one "metals" group and the like. Too unrealistic. (I believe the system he announced would let you do that if you wish, though.)
 
HOW TO KEEP THE NUMBER OF STOCKPILES DOWN

snip....

Like I said earlier, I suspect that Firaxis's magic number is 7: 7 basic types of terrain, 7 religions, 7 original UN resolutions... maybe 8 original traits. Everything else is even less: 5 great people, 5 X 5 civic columns, 3 different yields (food/commerce/production) with 3 different kinds of commerce (culture, research, gold). Yes, there may be 40 different units in the epic game, but a player won't have to think about more than 7 different unit types on the map at a time. There might be 86 technologies, but your choices at any given moment are limited, and a technology that provides more than 3 effects is rare. More than 4 effects is even more rare.

I have quietly lurked on this thread, and it sounds like a tremendous idea, and I hope all of you can make it work.
I simply want to re-iterate the point made several times here: be very careful how many resources you choose to monitor at any given time. I am with dh_epic on a quantity of 5-7.
I play a great WWII RTS game, Paradox' Hearts of Iron. While RTS, it has a tremendous amount of concepts that can be applied to TBS. The biggest thing is that you have to stockpile and manage 3 strategic resources. I personally find this a little on the light side, and think the magic number should be about 5. Any more than that number I believe becomes a chore and detracts from the game, and I am one who loves micromanagement.

I would also like to add another very "micromanagish" item to the list of ideas for this QR concept.
Although this concept adds a nightmarish amount of coding headaches, it adds tremendously to the naval part of the game.

I will give an actual modern example.
Assume you are China buying/trading with North African countries for oil. You have agreed upon some trade value, say 10 gold for 40 units of oil. Now you have to get that oil back to China. Instead of trade simply taking place through a set of counters, China actually has to have a tanker/transport go to one of the North African city, load some physical unit onto the tanker/transport that represents X amount of oil units, and the value of that oil does not get added to China's stockpile until the tanker docks at a Chinese city.

This would be a much more detailed extension of what Civ III did with treasure units in one of the Firaxis Conquest mod's.

So instead of your oil well simply adding Y units of your civ's oil counter every turn, it would instead spawn a unit worth Y units of oil, and that unit value is added to your stockpile when the unit enters a city and is instructed to drop its load. Consider that unit an abstraction of a rail car, a pipeline, a trade caravan, whatever.

This may be way too complicated to program and/or detract from gameplay, but I thought I would put it out there.
 
Personally, you all can argue about the number of resources and the groupings, etc. because this doesn't really require new considerations for me :)

If you want to make 2 resources or 200 resources, you're free to do that... it will all be moddable in the XML. I will be using 10 resources with the release of the modcomp, but that is just for demonstration purposes.
 
Thank you, Dom. That is exactly what I was looking for -- the ability to mod it individually so we can all be happy. :)
 
I think the basic problem with the current resources system is that having 1 resource is the same as having 10 (except when trading them, which is usually marginal). The other problem is that a large empire consumes the same amount (1 resource) as a small 1-city civ.

Here's how it works:
- Each resource tile is assigned a certain number (say between 50 and 100) at the start of the game
- At every turn the sum of hooked up amounts of a particular resource are added up. Call it GlobalSupply
- At every turn the sum of hooked up amounts of a particular resource in a particular CIV are added up. Call it LocalSupply
- At every turn the sum of hammers of units and buildings that are currently being build associated with that resource in the CIV are added. Call it LocalDemand
- At every turn the sum of hammers of units and buildings that are currently being build associated with that resource are added. Call it GlobalDemand
- A production modifier (just like that of a forge, etc.) is added where the bonus equals:
(LocalSupply/GlobalSupply)x(GlobalDemand/LocalDemand)

Example: A world of 20 cities all building swordmen. Our CIV has 5 cities 50&#37; of the world's mines.
Modifier = (0.5)*(20/5)=2

The formula probably requires some balancing.
What does everybody think of this idea?
 
I'm sure we can all make a mod we'd personally enjoy. The challenge, of course, is making a mod for quantitative resources that Firaxis could potentially buy into. Of course, that's not always so important. Plenty of great mods were made for hardcore civ fans, instead of the mass market.
 
It is good to hear that this sort of application is in the works.

Have you seen the thread on the Imperialism Mod cotdamn is working on? http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5468900
It seems like it will have these sorts of mechinisms, but taylored to the 19th century.

I am glad that Dons Mod will be flexable so that one can adjust things to one's likings.
 
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