Quebec Independence Movement

[Evie]

If anglophones want to move to Quebec then thats their business and the culture will have to adapt,

So the French people who don't speak English should be the ones forced to learn English to live in Montreal instead?

Sorry, but no. When you move somewhere, you adapt to the fundamental nature of the place you are moving to, you don't demand the place adapt itself to you. "What language they speak" is part of that fundamental nature.

(And yes, I know, native americans, etc, etc. Past mistakes do not justify modern ones)

What you're presenting is precisely the view of multiculturalism that takes a good idea and turns it into ruinous extremes.

 

[tonberry]

Why? Why does Quebec culture deserve to stay in absolute and artificial stasis? If anglophones want to move to Quebec then thats their business and the culture will have to adapt, the same as we in Toronto have adapted to a huge influx of non-anglo immigration.

Exceptionalism, pure exceptionalism.

When people in Toronto have a hard time being served in english, we can compare our situation.

 

[Communisto]

So the French people who don't speak English should be the ones forced to learn English to live in Montreal instead?

Sorry, but no. When you move somewhere, you adapt to the fundamental nature of the place you are moving to, you don't demand the place adapt itself to you.

Theyre not demanding anything from you, theyre exercising their rights as Canadians. You can still shop from all the francophone establishments you want. Call me when a law is being broken.

 

[Rub'Rum]

What you're presenting is precisely the view of multiculturalism that takes a good idea and turns it into ruinous extremes.

Multiculturalism has been challenged by many European figureheads recently too. Many whispering about the concept as a failure. But it's such a deeply entrenched part of Canadian identity...

 

[Evie]

Multiculturalism in and of itself is a good idea. A culture is far richer for integrating people from different cultural horizons and bringing what they have to give in a whole.

integrating people being the key point.

This means the people being able to communicate with each other*, and agreeing to share a few basic fundamental social values**. Multiculturalism without any integration, multiculturalism where everyone is free to invoke their culture to justify spitting on others ("In my culture it's unacceptable for women to have authority therefore I refuse to respect policewomen"***), is an over-the-top form of multiculturalism.

*IE, trying to have one common language, in addition to any other language each individual speak. This language should be the locally established language (in Quebec, French. Elsewhere in Canada, English)
**Democracy, gender and racial equality, some form of freedom of conscience...
***Actually happened, sadly. No, it wasn't a Muslim - it was an Orthodox Jew. Rare, though.

 

[SG-17]

I thought that everyone in Canada, regardless of province, learned English?

 

[warpus]

Hmmm. I don't think that's the view so much as the idea is that Canada, at the national level (eg, national institutions, national events - not the individual provinces let alone the individuals) should reflect both its french and english heritage, so that the French peopel can recognize themselves in it, too.

That means official bilingualism (which we have), that means the PM making the effort to use French as well as English (one of the few cases where I agree with Stephen Harper's hard-headedness) when representing the country in public, it means big national events involving a fair effort toward representing the french legacy of Canada and giving it the language sizeable place (not a majority place or even necessarily an equal place with English, but a sizeable one). It's largely an issue of the image of the country, not what individual provinces do.

When the Polish president addresses the world at some sort of an international event, he will do so in English, if he speaks it well enough. It makes sense - English is the de facto lingua Anglica.

I agree with what you say, but French just isn't on the same level internationally, so I would expect our leaders to keep that in mind when addressing international audiences, instead of using French "just because".

The Vancouver opening ceremony was a big fail on that level

The Vancouver games were held in Vancouver - where almost nobody speaks French as a first language. Quebec also got a much bigger "coverage" during the ceremonies than Ontario.. in fact, Ontario was pretty much skipped over.

It wasn't a fail.. These weren't the "Canada Olympic games". They were the "Vancouver Olympic games"

 

[Evie]

That'S how it seems to have been perceived out west, yes - a vancouver event, not a Canada one.

Problem is, Ottawa tried hard to sell it as a Big All-Canada Event, and that's how it was perceived in Quebec. Hence why it caused trouble.

(and important distinction: FRENCH time, not Quebec time)

As for international events, it of course depends on circumstances. We shouldn't go out of our way to complicate international relations, obviously; at the same time we should give nods to our frenchness when it can be done with minimal impact.

 

[warpus]

That'S how it seems to have been perceived out west, yes - a vancouver event, not a Canada one.

Problem is, Ottawa tried hard to sell it as a Big All-Canada Event, and that's how it was perceived in Quebec. Hence why it caused trouble.

(and important distinction: FRENCH time, not Quebec time)

Even if it was an All-Canada event, you guys have nothing to complain about. A huge chunk of the ceremonies were about you guys! and Ontario..? my home province.. nothing zero.. zilch.. nadda

 

[Evie]

A huge chunk of the ceremonies? That's...not how I remember it.

And again, the important part is using the French language. Which is what we're complaining about, not any representation or lack thereof of a specific province.

If the whole ceremony had been speaking about BC, but a third of it in French, or if 95% of the French content had been provided by Metis, Acadians, Franco-Manitobans and Franco-Ontarians about their respective provinces, you'd have gotten much less complaints than with a Quebec-centric presentation in English.

 

[Maniacal]

I don't even remember the French part of it besides part of the English/French greeting messages and even then not really so I don't know what you are referring too. But yeah, the Olympics have a huge focus on the specific city and surrounding area that is often as strong as the national one.

 

[Evie]

True.

As I said, a large chunk of the problem is that Ottawa spent a long time trying to sell it as a big all-Canada deal. In that sort of event, we want and expect francophone content.

(Of course, it can be argued that Ottawa footed a large part of the bill so probably felt they should have a say in what sort of event it was, too)

It was probably the result of miscommunication between Ottawa, Quebec and British Columbia more than any sort of malice - BC saw it was BC's event which Ottawa helped pay; Ottawa saw it as a Canada event that all Canada paid for, and Quebec saw it was the Canada event Ottawa said it was so felt there should be more French to it).

As I also said, a fairly minor event that hasn't in and of itself affected the lasting perception of Quebecers. It would have taken a lot of incidents like these, not just one, to fire off the nationalists. (Or Ottawa saying "Bah, Canada can be English only sometimes" or some oether inanity which Harper is far too intelligent to say)

 

[Maniacal]

All I heard about here in BC was trying to sell BC as a tourist spot (and also talk about trade deals for BC goods).

EDIT: Well, and Canada too of course.

 

[Evie]

Yeah, that's not so much what we heard on this side. Probably someone in Ottawa dropping the ball on making sure everyone was on the same page. Here it was Canada's games and whatnot.

 

[warpus]

A huge chunk of the ceremonies? That's...not how I remember it.

Proportionally speaking (as in, Quebec makes up 20% of the country population wise) it was pretty huge.. as in, you got more than 20% of stuff. Maybe I'm wrong.

And again, the important part is using the French language. Which is what we're complaining about, not any representation or lack thereof of a specific province.

This was an event presenting Canada to the world.. English being a universal language of sorts, you'd expect more English than French. Don't think you can get around that.

 

[Evie]

More English than French I can see, but a large window for French is a must.

Personally, I'd say around 30-35%-ish in strong English provinces* (markedly more English than French), closer to the 40-50% range in the three strong-Francophone-minority provinces (Ontario, Manitoba, New Brunswick), and probably in the 50-60% range in Quebec would be about right at a glance.

*I mean primary languages here. if, for example, there is a French poem being read, it should absolutely be read along with an English translation being presented on video screens locally (or read if there's no way to make a translation visible to all), and being added to the broadcast internationally, of course.

 

[warpus]

More English than French I can see, but a large window for French is a must.

You can't expect 50/50 when most of the world doesn't understand French.. whereas English is a language that is taught everywhere as a "Lingua Franca". There was enough French imo, you really can't expect more given the state of the world. If French was as prevalent around the world as English was, then I'd agree with you.

Look at it this way.. If Polish was Canada's 3rd language, it wouldn't make any sense at all to have a lot of stuff said in Polish at a Canadian Olympics. Only 50 million people around the world speak this strange & obscure language.

 

[Maniacal]

Yeah, that's not so much what we heard on this side. Probably someone in Ottawa dropping the ball on making sure everyone was on the same page. Here it was Canada's games and whatnot.

Well there was abit of that, but there were also a lot of ads in BC advertising BC to the world (which seemed kind of odd because 99% of people watching them were probably already living here).

 

[Rub'Rum]

Not sure if anyone mentionned that French is part of all Olympic ceremonies to start with (in ANY country) because it is one of the Olympic movement's TWO official languages. Did the ceremony make it clear that the French in it was due to French actually existing in Canada?

...

 

[Evie]

You can't expect 50/50 when most of the world doesn't understand French.. whereas English is a language that is taught everywhere as a "Lingua Franca". There was enough French imo, you really can't expect more given the state of the world. If French was as prevalent around the world as English was, then I'd agree with you.

I don't expect 50/50, as I edited - I expect somethign like 30, 35% in places like BC and Alberta, closer to 40-50 in Ontario, Manitoba and New Brunswick, and closer to 50-60 in Quebec.

Note, again, that this does not include translations 0- i'm perfectly fine with providing English translations for portion of the presentation that are in French, or running them in both languages (without having to do so for English portions). I'm only counting the presentation itself.

For example: if there are five songs and/or poems presented, French inclusion would be two French ones (if two can be found that fit the theme of the celebration, of course), and I'm also fine with accompanying the French reading with an English one, or showing an english translation of the words as they are read somewhere that everyone can see. If it's proving difficult to find the right poems, or if there are four english poems that really fit too well to be ignored, that's fine.

Translations provided for the convenience of the world at large I'm not counting in what I consider resonable proportions. By the same token, I'm not counting IOC-mandated use of French or English (French, English and the host country's language are by IOC custom the languages of all Olympic Games) such as the IOC president reading his text in both languages or whatnot - this is not representation of Canada's frenchness to the world. Or of Canada's Englishness.

(Even reading the text in both languages at once can work - it could even be made something artistic and distinctive. Take one text, have one person read it in French (or English), have the other echo it in the other language. That could actually result in something unique and beautiful, and Canadian all the way)