Question about working out unit strength with promotions, affinities, and resistances

[torsoboy]

So, now that I've played a few games, I'm trying to figure out how exactly unit strength is calculated.

Two questions come to mind:

Do promotion bonuses apply before or after affinities and elemental/holy bonuses?
Suppose I have a Combat V Angel (4 +1 holy) in combat with a demon, on non-hell plains. Does Combat V add +4 for a total of 9 (base 4 + Combat V 4 + 1 holy), or +5 ((base 4 + 1 holy)*Combat V) for a total of 10?

How are resistances worked out?
Units with the Angel promotion have:
•+50% Resistance to Death Damage
•+20% Resistance to Fire Damage

Suppose an Angel is fighting against Meshabber of Dis (19 +6 fire +6unholy). Does the Angel fight against .7*31 = 21.7? Or is it 19 + .5*6 + .8*6 = 26.8? Or is it even .5*.8*31 = 12.4?

Is a Crusader (6 +1 holy) better at fighting demons than a Paramander (7)? And if so, by how much? Are they equally strong against non-demons?

Also, does affinity determine the damage type, or is it a straight bonus to strength? Does every damage type have a corresponding unit that is weak or strong against it? Which damage type, if any, is the "best"?

 

[readercolin]

Combat 1-5 adds +20% to strength. So it is strength 4, times 100%, making it strength 8 base damage. Then it adds 1*100%, for 2 holy damage. This means that the angel is now strength 8+2 holy damage.

Resistances (at least in this case) can be worked out in a similar manner. For example, if the angel was fighting against a specter hopped up on death mana, making it strength 8 (3+5 death). The death resistance reduces the specter's death strength by 50%, meaning that it is now strength 5.5 (strength 3 + 50% of 5, or 2.5). Similarly, fighting against Menshabber, the angel doesn't have any resistance to unholy damage (that you listed, I don't usually use them so I can't say if this is true or not), but he does have resistance against fire. That means that Meshabber would be strenth 19 +6unholy, +6*.8Fire, meaning that Meshabber would be 29.8.

Now, what happens when a specter has empower 5 against that angel. Empower 5 provides +50% strength. That means that he is strength 3*50% +5death*50%. The angel has 50% death resistance. That means that the specter gets strength 4.5 + 5death*(50%-50%), meaning that the specter is now strength 9.5. This is found because % bonuses in civ are additive. Therefore, the cumulative bonuses/detriments are all added together, then applied. So if the specter had empower 4, his bonus to death would be 5death*(40%-50%), for a total of 10% less death strength, meaning he would get 4.5 death damage.

As for crusaders vs paramanders, I can't really say one way or another (do demons get a malus against holy damage?). I do know they both have 40% vs demons, which means that any demons they fight get a -40% to their strength.

Lastly, for affinity. Affinity adds a bonus to strength, but in some cases it adds strength of a damage type. So death affinity adds +death strength, fire and sun affinity add +fire strength, water and ice affinity add +cold strength, air affinity adds +lightning damage, and earth and nature add +strength (no damage type). To see the exact, give yourself some mana you can switch around, and a unit that can summon djinns (metamagic 3). Change the mana type, summon up some djinns, and you'll see what each change in mana type he uses changes his strength.

Hope this helps.

-Colin

 

[torsoboy]

Thanks for the reply. I'll have to read it a few more times before I comprehend it all.

The Demon promotion also includes -25% resistance to Holy damage.

So as you explained, in a fight against a demon a Paramander (7, demon slaying I) would be 7 * 1.4 = 9.8 and a Crusader (6, +1 holy, demon slaying I) would be 6 * 1.4 + 1 * 1.4 * 1.25 = 10.15?

By the way, I found it curious that there is a Demon Slaying I, but no Demon Slaying II to choose from. I suppose it was omitted somewhere along the way?

And you're right about Meshabber, I equated Death damage with Unholy, which apparantly isn't the same thing.

 

[torsoboy]

Ah, I missed that part where you said percentages are added together, not multiplied. That means my calculation was wrong and should be the following:

Crusader (6, +1 holy, demon slaying I) 6 * 1.4 + 1 * (1.4 + .25) = 10.05

 

[readercolin]

No, not quite right about the demon slaying. The demon slaying provides a MALUS against the opponent, just as does shock, cover, formation, etc. I'll show this as in a fight against a demonic champion.

A demonic champion is strength 8 (has iron), and +25% vs melee units. To show how this works, I'll attack with a champion (strength 8 with iron, +25% vs melee units), a Paramander (Strength 7, demon slaying 1), and a Crusader (strength 6+1holy, demon slaying 1).

Champion. Both units are strength 8, both are melee units, both have +25% vs melee units. Therefore, it is strength 8 - 25% (the vs melee units is applied as a malus to the opponent, not a bonus to the attacker). Therefore, it is strength 6 vs strength 6. If one of them has combat 1, it would be then strength 7.6 vs. strength 6 (strength 8 + (20%-25%) vs strength 8 + (-25%)).

Paramander. The Paramander is strength 7, diciple unit, and has 40% vs demons. Therefore, it would be strength 7 vs strength 4.8 (8 + (-40%)). If the Champion had combat 1, it would be strength 6.2 (8 + (20%-40%)), and if it had combat 2 it would be strength 8. However, if the Paramander took combat 1 and shock, and the champion had no promotions, then the paramander would be strength 8.4 (7+20%) vs 1.6 (Strength 8 + (-40% demon, -40% melee)). Here then the demon would need combat 4 in order to become strength 8 again (hence why there is no demon slaying 2).

Crusader. The crusader is strength 6 +1 holy, diciple unit with demon slaying 1. Because the demon has -25% vs holy, that is applied as a +25% to the crusaders holy damage. That means that the combat would be strength 6 +1.25 holy (strength 7.25) vs strength 4.8 (8+(-40%)). Taking combat 1 would mean that the crusader was strength 7.2 (6+20%) + 1.45 holy (strength 1 + 20% combat1, +25% holy resistance malus of demon), for a total of 8.65 strength against the demon. Shock would work as in the example above, because it is applied as a malus against the demon.

The last thing to note is that strength and malus's are additive. To show this, take a warrior of strength 4 (he has bronze). In a city, he is strength 5, due to his 25% city defense. If he took combat 1, he would then have a 20% bonus everywhere, but a 45% bonus while inside of a city. Another easy example to look at is an archer with city garrison. The archer gets a 25% bonus for defending the city, and a 30% bonus from city garrison, meaning that he gets a 55% bonus while defending a city. If he took combat 1 in addition, he would have a 20% bonus anywhere, but a 75% bonus while defending a city. If someone attacks him who has cover (40% vs archery units), the he would have a 35% bonus defending a city (75% - 40%).

-Colin

 

[torsoboy]

Thanks again!

I'll have to rethink my views on promotions entirely now... one last question: how do I check which promotions apply a bonus and which apply a malus?

 

[readercolin]

Quite simply, it provides a bonus if it says it gives a bonus to strength or if it gives a bonus to defense. It provides a malus if it provides an attacking bonus - examples would be shock, demon slaying etc., but also city raider provides a malus to the opponent. Usually its a Malus if it says its a bonus vs. certain units/unit types.

If you want to test and see, an excellent example is a scout or a hunter, who has 50% vs animals and beasts. You'll notice that it doesn't make the scout strength 3, instead it makes the lion strength 2. Now the issue is that it makes the lion strength 2, not strength 1.5, so you can see that what I've given isn't exactly how it works out. However it does give you a pretty good idea. I haven't gone looking yet to find out exactly how it works.

-Colin

 

[MagisterCultuum]

By the way, I found it curious that there is a Demon Slaying I, but no Demon Slaying II to choose from. I suppose it was omitted somewhere along the way?

There used to be a Demon Slaying II, and also an Undead Slaying II, back when there existed such promotions as Elf Slaying, Orc Slaying, and Dwarf Slaying. Kael decided it wasn't fair to have these anti-racial promotion as there was no human slaying. I think separating the elven promotion into Elf and Dark Elf (which differ only in what custom art they use) may have also been a part of the reason it was cut, as Kael would have had to edit the promotion schema in order to let one promotion give a bonus against two promotions. Kael just forgot to change the textkey for Demon Slaying when he removed Demon Slaying II.

 

[torsoboy]

If the maluses are cumulative, does that mean that a malus total of >= 100 always auto-defeats the other unit? Suppose I attack a Demonic Champion that is defending a city with a unit that has Shock, Demon Slaying and City Raider (malus 110%), or even a City Raider III unit (malus 110%). The Demonic Champion fights at -.6 to start with?

 

[readercolin]

That part I don't know, and I haven't been able to find the exact calculations in the DLL. Admittedly, I haven't been looking very hard, usually skimming by that as I search for functions I need to use to do what I'm trying to. My only suggestion is to get a test case - give the barbarians a unit and a city, give yourself an attacker and give him the promotions. Can all be done in the world builder. Actually, it might be better to use another civ - I'm not sure if the player still gets bonus's vs. barbarians in FFH.

-Colin