Question for Christians...

[Katheryn]

If John adds nothing to Paul's message, why do we need his writings?

For a second witness to what the definition is of an antichrist (or the Antichris).

Paul gives it and John gives it - two witnesses.

Can't have just one witness. Need two or three.


Deuteronomy 17:6
On the evidence of two or three witnesses he who is worthy of death shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness.


Deuteronomy 19:15
One witness shall not prevail against a man for any crime or any wrong in connection with any sin he commits; only on the testimony of two or three witnesses shall a charge be established.


Ruth 4:11
And all the people at the gate and the elders said, We are witnesses. May the Lord make the woman who is coming into your house like Rachel and Leah, the two who built the household of Israel. May you do worthily and get wealth (power) in Ephratah and be famous in Bethlehem.


Matthew 18:16
But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two others, so that every word may be confirmed and upheld by the testimony of two or three witnesses.



Matthew 26:60
But they found none, though many witnesses came forward [to testify]. At last two men came forward


2 Corinthians 13:1
THIS IS the third time that I am coming to you. By the testimony of two or three witnesses must any charge and every accusing statement be sustained and confirmed. [Deut 19:15 ]


1 Timothy 5:19 (Whole Chapter)
Listen to no accusation [presented before a judge] against an elder unless it is confirmed by the testimony of two or three witnesses. [Deut 19:15 ]

Revelation 11:3 (Whole Chapter)
And I will grant the power of prophecy to My two witnesses for 1,260 (42 months; three and one-half years), dressed in sackcloth.


Revelation 11:4 (Whole Chapter)
These [witnesses] are the two olive trees and the two lampstands which stand before the Lord of the earth. [Zech 4:3, 11-14 ]


Revelation 11:6 (Whole Chapter)
These [two witnesses] have power to shut up the sky, so that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying (their [Joseph Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon.] prediction of events relating to Christ's kingdom and its speedy triumph); and they also have power to turn the waters into blood and to smite and scourge the earth with all manner of plagues as often as they choose. [Exod 7:17, 19; I Kings 17:1 ]





========


Common theme.

 

[Katheryn]

Amusingly, the Mormon vision of the future is awfully similar to mine (mine just doesn't require death)

Yours evidently doesn't require faith in Jesus Christ..... or does it?

 

[El_Machinae]

Much of Genesis is false:

And Noah [was] six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.


Gen 7:7 ¶ And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.


Gen 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that [are] not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,


Gen 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.


Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
....
And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that [were] under the whole heaven, were covered.


Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

Poetry too?

Gen 11:1 ¶ And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.


Gen 11:2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.


...
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people [is] one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.


Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.


Gen 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

Poetry?

Seriously, there's a host of stuff given as 'history' in Genesis. Stuff that's false. Geneologies, birth records, lifespans. Whole swaths of it is false.

Yours evidently doesn't require faith in Jesus Christ..... or does it?

No, my vision of the future does not require faith in Jesus Christ. I do have faith that Christians will try to muck up my life though. My future life is not harmful to the faith in Jesus, though, to be fair.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I don't usually refer to poetry, even if it refers to fictional events, as "false". It just doesn't strike me as the best word. Maybe it's just me, though.

 

[El_Machinae]

I don't usually refer to poetry, even if it refers to fictional events, as "false". It just doesn't strike me as the best word. Maybe it's just me, though.

Yeah, I remember what you mean.
But sometimes the poetry is pretending to be history. It's a fine line to tread.

 

[Quasar1011]

If John adds nothing to Paul's message, why do we need his writings?

Because the context of "message" was the gospel. John chiefly presented the gospel. Paul chiefly presented instructions on Christian living. Paul's message regarding the gospel, was the same as John's.

There's no reason to trust Revelations as true (or even symbolically true) since Paul warns about apostles giving false prophecies.

Actually, there is. Revelation chapters 2 and 3 are church history, written in advance. Chronologically speaking, we are living in Revelation chapter 3 right now. Narrowing it down even further, we are in the "Laodicean Age". Christ's words to the Laodicean church, fit the general state of the church today, perfectly.

 

[MobBoss]

Much of Genesis is false:

How do you know? Where you around then as an eye witness? Hardly.

 

[Peri]

So why is Genesis correct and other creation myths are false?

 

[warpus]

How do you know? Where you around then as an eye witness? Hardly.

Hmm, were you?

 

[MobBoss]

Hmm, were you?

Nope, but I am not the one calling it false. I am content in saying I dont know the truth in a lot of things ancient.

 

[El_Machinae]

How do you know? Where you around then as an eye witness? Hardly.

Golden Rule question. Do you like it when people give you weak retorts and then use mocking smilies? I'd be happy to do it, if you like it. Of course, you can also ask me to assume that you don't follow the Golden Rule.

But seriously, the weakness of Genesis is that (in many places) it gives itself as an integrated whole. It lists ages, genealogies, etc. The problem is that if we tie (say) Noah to Nimrod to Abraham, then a falsehood in one story continues over to the rest. The Flood did not occur (as described) which means that Abraham did not live X number of years after the Flood. There might have been a man named Abraham, but the details about him are not wholly true.

So, the definition of Abraham (as given) is not true. Dig?
Unfortunately, much of Genesis is integrated into itself this way. It would be like a history textbook containing the story of Hamlet and tying it to the Anglican splitting from the Catholic Church.

 

[Swedishguy]

Nope, but I am not the one calling it false. I am content in saying I dont know the truth in a lot of things ancient.

But you must agree that some things are really proposterous...?

 

[MobBoss]

Golden Rule question. Do you like it when people give you weak retorts and then use mocking smilies? I'd be happy to do it, if you like it. Of course, you can also ask me to assume that you don't follow the Golden Rule.

Golden Rule question. Would you like it if people told you that your religion is full of lies based upon their own assumptions? Seriously.

As for your post style, use smilies all you want. You will find I am not thin-skinned in regards to their use.

 

[El_Machinae]

Golden Rule question. Would you like it if people told you that your religion is full of lies based upon their own assumptions? Seriously.

As for your post style, use smilies all you want. You will find I am not thin-skinned in regards to their use.

No, I'm not asking if it bothers you. I'm asking if you like it. I'm not asking about the Muslim Golden Rule ("don't do to others what you don't want them to do to you"), I'm asking regarding the Christian Golden rule ("do to others what you want them to do to you"). Sorry for the confusion.

You see, I'm left with a dilemma. I wonder if you treat people the way you want to be treated (as a Christian is supposed to), and thus want to be treated thusly (in fact, this is the assumption I had made when you first claimed to be Christian). I find it difficult to believe that a person wants to be exposed to shallow retorts and mocking smilies - but I guess I can, if I know they like it. This is why I ask; I honestly should have asked earlier. It was a mistake on my part. I continued to treat you as though you were a Christian, even though I claimed that you weren't. Sorry.

With regards to my discussion regarding the falseness of Genesis, I was discussing it with Eran (who, though we have trouble with our definitions, agrees that parts of Genesis are to be taken with a grain of salt) who, I've found, is not thin-skinned and prone to wild misinterpretation of my posts. I'm sure that he's as offended by me calling Genesis false and me calling Newtonian physics false.

 

[MobBoss]

I continued to treat you as though you were a Christian, even though I claimed that you weren't. Sorry.

Actually, all you have done is treat me as an atheist would. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[GenMarshall]

Actually, all you have done is treat me as an atheist would. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thats the general feeling that I have gotten too MobBoss, so youre not alone.

 

[El_Machinae]

Actually, all you have done is treat me as an atheist would. Nothing more, nothing less.

Luckily this thread is about asking Christians questions, so we're not too far in topic drift.

When I was first exposed to you, I was exposed to your statement that you're a Christian. I've met other Christians on this board: 'Ro, Eran, VRWCAgent, to name a few.

Now, one part of being Christian is living by the Christian (not Moslem) Golden Rule. I assumed that each of you treats others the way they want to be treated. So, I viewed the way each of you treated others and emulated it. Check out the way I interact with Christians: I'm brusque with John, casual/joking with Eran and Irish, polite with VRWCAgent, on-point with Elrohir, etc. CivGeneral is starting to change, so I have to watch how he treats others. Katheryn is still new, etc. Now, sometimes I fail, but we all know I'm just human.

Paradoxically (and I'm apologising), I started being more and more of an jerk towards you the longer we conversed. If you were Christian, this would be the nice thing to do, since they live by the Golden Rule. The paradox kicks in when I first realised that you weren't really a Christian; I should have stopped treating you the way you treated others. Again, I'm sorry. It was a logical breakdown. It's also hard to be polite to someone who acts like you, even though I know now (logically) that you actually don't want to be treated suchly.

But, for the record, I am not rude and mean to you because I'm an atheist mistreating a Christian. I was rude and mean to you because of the way you acted and the way you act. I should have stopped treating you like you lived by the Golden Rule when I realised you weren't Christian, and started treating you more politely.

Now, as someone who knows you, I predict you will take none of this post to heart. You will continue to assume that an atheist is persecuting a Christian. This disregards the fact that the atheist doesn't consider you to be a Christian, and that this atheist acts very differently towards the other Christians on this board. I have no idea if you will wonder why this atheist believes Christians when they claim to be such, but no longer believes you.

 

[MobBoss]

Luckily this thread is about asking Christians questions, so we're not too far in topic drift.

When I was first exposed to you, I was exposed to your statement that you're a Christian. I've met other Christians on this board: 'Ro, Eran, VRWCAgent, to name a few.

Now, one part of being Christian is living by the Christian (not Moslem) Golden Rule. I assumed that each of you treats others the way they want to be treated. So, I viewed the way each of you treated others and emulated it. Check out the way I interact with Christians: I'm brusque with John, casual/joking with Eran and Irish, polite with VRWCAgent, on-point with Elrohir, etc. CivGeneral is starting to change, so I have to watch how he treats others. Katheryn is still new, etc. Now, sometimes I fail, but we all know I'm just human.

Paradoxically (and I'm apologising), I started being more and more of an jerk towards you the longer we conversed. If you were Christian, this would be the nice thing to do, since they live by the Golden Rule. The paradox kicks in when I first realised that you weren't really a Christian; I should have stopped treating you the way you treated others. Again, I'm sorry. It was a logical breakdown. It's also hard to be polite to someone who acts like you, even though I know now (logically) that you actually don't want to be treated suchly.

But, for the record, I am not rude and mean to you because I'm an atheist mistreating a Christian. I was rude and mean to you because of the way you acted and the way you act. I should have stopped treating you like you lived by the Golden Rule when I realised you weren't Christian, and started treating you more politely.

Now, as someone who knows you, I predict you will take none of this post to heart. You will continue to assume that an atheist is persecuting a Christian. This disregards the fact that the atheist doesn't consider you to be a Christian, and that this atheist acts very differently towards the other Christians on this board. I have no idea if you will wonder why this atheist believes Christians when they claim to be such, but no longer believes you.

My only comment is this. I profess Jesus as my lord and savior. I keep his tenets and commandments in my daily life and walk. I do this to the best of my ability and humble myself when I fall and ask him for his forgiveness. I humbly submit that trying to comment on someones faith across the internet an extremely flawed endeavor. Someone who does not know me personally is extremely unqualifed to comment in regards to my faith. Some here constantly insist upon making personal comments regarding it, and yet they do not know me personally, nor do they have any real idea of my daily life. Not all christians act alike...some can be rough and gruff like me, others meek and mild. But personalities dont dictate whether a person is a christian or not. Given the fact that CivG agreed with my comment about how atheists view christians should speak to non-christians......however, it seems many dont understand that. Bottom line, I also recognize and understand who it is that tries to tell/convince me, and other christians, that they simply are not good enough, too flawed, beyond redemption, beyond salvation. When someone says I am not a christian, they merely mouth the same kind of attack all christians face routinely from the enemy. No more, no less.

 

[mossmonster]

How do you know? Where you around then as an eye witness? Hardly.

Neither were you, so everyone can do without your holier-than-thou attitude you always seem to have. In the absence of actual witnesses, we use this method called science. Give it a try some time. It is a much more reliable guide than ancient magical tomes filled with obvious falsehoods and laughable passages.

 

[MobBoss]

Neither were you, so everyone can do without your holier-than-thou attitude you always seem to have. In the absence of actual witnesses, we use this method called science. Give it a try some time. It is a much more reliable guide than ancient magical tomes filled with obvious falsehoods and laughable passages.

Ah. Can science currently answer all the questions we have about the universe? Nope. So until it can, dont make fun of my ancient magical tomes. There are still plenty of unknowns out there that science doesnt tell you crap about. I dont profess to have all the answers...never have. But dont try to sell me a bill of goods in that YOU have all the answers. I know thats false.

So, given the fact that no one alive can truthfully know what the hell was going on thousands of years ago with any real detail, lets just cut to the truth. Its all speculation and total assumption. Period.