Question to the vets: Are mining starts strictly better than plantation starts?

[Idleray]

By a mining start I mean a start where you have Gold/Silver/Gems/Salt/Copper nearby, which require the mining technology.

By plantation start I mean the luxuries that require Calendar; Wine,Incense,Citrus,Silk,Cotton etc.

So are starts that have, say, 2-3 silvers and a citrus strictly better than say, 2-3 citrus & cotton?

I'l leave camp and marble out of this because I'm interested in what opinions are between these two specific situations.

 

[isau]

Salt is usually considered the best of these because it provides production and food in a single tile. A Salt start is widely considered among the strongest. Also, for reasons understood only by the developers, it can also now get Pantheon bonuses where resources like Dyes cannot. I can't remember if Salt on a desert hill is possible but if so that tile combined with Petra would be among the best you could have.

Citrus provides food so it's usually considered a tier above some other resources.

Plantation starts themselves aren't necessarily bad because at least Calendar is on the way to National College. It's hard to say whether they are strictly worse than Gold/Silver starts. Gold and Silver provide production and gold but never food (I don't think), each planation varies a little bit in terms of what it provides. But silver and gold allow you to use Mints so they are probably better than Copper.

Although you didn't ask about this exactly, the worst starts are probably something like elephants in a jungle, where you have to go way out of your way for Trapping and then Bronze Working just to start work on the tile.

 

[DudewiththeFood]

Because plantations require Calender, they open you up for shrines/granaries and if it is decent enough and you need a religion, there's the plantation belief for culture. However I think I saw somewhere that the patch includes new pantheon beliefs which will make mining resources better in whichever ways.

 

[civ54lyfe]

Plantation lux starts are strictly worse than Mining lux starts. it really is as simple as that.

 

[Idleray]

wow, I actually didn't know that citrus provided food.... so now I'll treat citrus tiles with more importance.

I feel gold and silver are probably the next strongest after salt due to them benefiting from both mints and a strong pantheon (+1 culture & faith)

 

[Mutineer]

Personally I do not believe there is a serious difference. As majority of this board people answer on other question: "Which resources are better for Tradition start?" Because if you use liberty start you will find your tecnology priorities are different.

And No, It is my believe liberty is as powerfull as tradition or even more powerfull, it just played differently.


Sayin that, I can emagin some start more dificult then other but whith other factors, like Plantation start which requed ability to clean up jungle in order to work plantation... But in my expirience starting location uselly have as minimum 1 resource which does not requed that.

More correct question would be about other combinations of resource, for example, plantation start with 2 granary resources is mach better then with out granary resources. Simply because granary on a way to plantation, so there a re natural progression.

One can say that worker spend time on improving plantation for 2 food 2 commerce tie, but improved mine often 0 foood 3 production 2 commerce. So, mine is better for production.. But that is situational, as Mine stop your grow and you may or may not want that..

 

[Atinuviel]

Salt is usually considered the best of these because it provides production and food in a single tile. A Salt start is widely considered among the strongest. Also, for reasons understood only by the developers, it can also now get Pantheon bonuses where resources like Dyes cannot. I can't remember if Salt on a desert hill is possible but if so that tile combined with Petra would be among the best you could have.

Citrus provides food so it's usually considered a tier above some other resources.

Plantation starts themselves aren't necessarily bad because at least Calendar is on the way to National College. It's hard to say whether they are strictly worse than Gold/Silver starts. Gold and Silver provide production and gold but never food (I don't think), each planation varies a little bit in terms of what it provides. But silver and gold allow you to use Mints so they are probably better than Copper.

Although you didn't ask about this exactly, the worst starts are probably something like elephants in a jungle, where you have to go way out of your way for Trapping and then Bronze Working just to start work on the tile.

Although I've never seen Elephants in a jungle (or I don't remember seeing one), I don't think you need to clear the jungle to build camps. I've built camps for Truffles in a jungle before, and they're actually quite decent. (+2 Food, +3Gold, and +2 Science after you have researched University)

 

[justanotherturn]

you just add malus to malus trying to say that plantation are not so bad and adding jungle issue.

I think everybody agree that jungle start are rarely good. (even for civ with bonus for jungle tile, and even if you manage to get a jungle culture pantheon.) they are slower than any other start.

now about plantation lux versus mining lux :
IMO mining lux are almost always better, easier faster to get, and more usefull early game.

even with a only mining lux start you dont usually get mining as your first tech, and so (in my game at least) mining is the tech i get the most from ancient ruin.
Salt is of course the best, but as you dont use mine really early in the game (unless it is salt mine) you often better build farm and pasture before mine.

 

[kb27787]

salt > citrus (as long as it it flood plains/forest but even jungle 3 food 1 gold is not bad) > gems > gold, silver (mint and pantheon)> copper> wine, incense (you will never find these two in jungle and you can have pantheon) > the rest of the plantation luxes which are crap tbh.

Arguably the trapping luxes are worse Ivory is slightly better than the other two because of circuses.
Pearls also suck while crabs/whales are bad early on but good once lighthouses come online.

 

[SirPepsi]

Copper is also a decent resource, and if you're lucky enough to have both the aforementioned and Salt in your capital, you're set.

 

[kb27787]

Salt is usually considered the best of these because it provides production and food in a single tile. A Salt start is widely considered among the strongest. Also, for reasons understood only by the developers, it can also now get Pantheon bonuses where resources like Dyes cannot. I can't remember if Salt on a desert hill is possible but if so that tile combined with Petra would be among the best you could have.

Citrus provides food so it's usually considered a tier above some other resources.

Plantation starts themselves aren't necessarily bad because at least Calendar is on the way to National College. It's hard to say whether they are strictly worse than Gold/Silver starts. Gold and Silver provide production and gold but never food (I don't think), each planation varies a little bit in terms of what it provides. But silver and gold allow you to use Mints so they are probably better than Copper.

Although you didn't ask about this exactly, the worst starts are probably something like elephants in a jungle, where you have to go way out of your way for Trapping and then Bronze Working just to start work on the tile.

Salt will never spawn on hills, sadly...
Gold/Silver if not on hills, usually will provide food according to the base tile type.
I have to question the dev's decisions as well... salt is already powerful as it is and now giving it faith would be simply imbalanced. It also makes no sense why salt mines give food but sugar, wine, citrus, and spices plantations (at least not until fertilizer) do not... I mean you LOSE food constructing a plantation on a jungle citrus/spices... how does that even make sense in real life?

I think have civil service give bonus +1 food to plantations with fresh water would be nice... the fertilizer bonus will then later only be applied to those without fresh water.

 

[FeiLing]

Silver starts CAN suck (because silver might appear on flat tundra tiles quite often).
Salt can spawn on flat tundra as well, however salt overcomes the shittyness easily so it's still okay

 

[Kingjester1]

Plantation starts give you more money in the early game while providing some food. Gold/silver start gives you economy and hammers and less food. Salt starts give you food and hammers, but less money.

Plantation starts make it easier to get to gold purchased units/buildings. You also typically will have 1 or 2 plantation resources on this kind of start, so that covers 1 or 2 more cities or 4-8 more citizens. Usually plantation starts are better paired with Liberty openings that lead into war, as having less raw output for growth and building things makes Tradition a little harder.

Really though the start is flavor difference, you have to consider your surroundings and neighbors on any start and work to your strengths to get some early goal, e.g. expanding, growing, rushing a city to a vital resource, etc.

 

[Deau]

All other things being equal, mining >> plantation starts.

What drives a good opener is the opportunity to get more food+hammer total from the same worked tiles. Plantation improvement yield +1 gold instead of +1 food or +1h making them bad early game tiles.

The only decent plantation start that is competitive is oranges since it also provides 3 non gold yield. Sadly, since it is too often in jungles and thus takes longer to improve, it loses some value.

Other plantation starts rime with less growth or production than standard farmed/mined tiles making them poor tiles in the early game.

GPT is really marginal in the early game and the gold cost purchase is too high compared to hammer cost significantly devaluating gpt from tiles.

 

[Securion]

Oh! Lets play the Tier-game!

Tier One; Salt. Just like in real life; civilizations would not exist without it.
Tier Two; Ivory. (and horses actually...) +2 since it lets you build a circus
Tier three; Citrus. Extra food. No growth, no city.
Tier four; Gold, Silver, Copper. Good tech path and extra early gold.
Tier five; Other land luxes.
Tier six; Sea luxes. The need to build/buy workboats is a pain.

 

[DudewiththeFood]

Don't Gems get an extra +1 gold over Gold/Silver/Copper?

 

[Securion]

Don't Gems get an extra +1 gold over Gold/Silver/Copper?

Im old. I forgot the gems.

 

[Buccaneer]

I had an immediate answer (mining >> calendar) but it's more nuanced than that. Salt is the best, I agree, but getting hill mining luxuries combined with floodplains/river tiles is the next best thing, imo. And I would chose Ivory over non-hill mining luxuries. Marble I haven't figured out where they rank; as well as citrus (a good lux by itself) because of what generally would be around them.

 

[kb27787]

My tier list is a little different
1) salt
2) citrus, gems, marble
3) gold, silver, copper, whales, crab (sure work boats are a pain but even without a workboat a single lighthouse turns them into great tiles... and seaports into fantastic ones)
4) all generic calendar/trapping luxes... circuses are not that good unless you play really wide... but surely how many cities can you get within 3 tiles of that ivory? horses (non-lux so not included) do the same thing. +2 gold is just weak.
5) pearls (suckiest lux in the game)

 

[Tabarnak]

Usually yes. But what you really want is multiple spots of them. So you can sell extras. If i have multiple silver/gold mines i will favor an early market+mint combo.