Do you predetermine you will use it or do you wait and see what your start situation is. Or i guess another option would be to regen map until you get a start you like. I would think that if you see 6+ flood plains you would instantly think SE or if you see a lot of livestock/grain tiles.
Question to those who often use SE
- Thread starter beckdawg
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futurehermit
Deity
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depends a lot on your choice of leader.
like, if i play a philosophical leader i'll go SE. financial = CE. neither = depends on map/other things (e.g., Romans' UB goes well with SE).
like, if i play a philosophical leader i'll go SE. financial = CE. neither = depends on map/other things (e.g., Romans' UB goes well with SE).
Ranked in order I'd say it depends on:
1. level - You cant normally (everything random, standard or above size map) beat deity without using a SE, whereas at emperor or below pretty much any strategy can work
2. leader - A SE is all about leverage and flexibility, and if you really want to see it fly then you need to change civics way too often to not be spiritual. Similarly you're gimping yourself by not being philosophical though thats a passive benefit and less critical. Certainly Gandi (spiritual/philo) demands a SE - you can get liberalism reliably by 400ad epic speed at diety with him, as a benchmark.
3. Your objectives - some games you just want to play one or the other. CE's require much less micromanagement. All other things being equal a SE favors a warmonger game, as your production (especially military production) can be far higher than a CE can achieve.
4. terrain - a floodplain/hills and/or stone start definately makes you lean towards an SE
The problem with a SE is that you need to know a lot more about the game mechanics to make it work. A CE is a sure thing (below immortal) because it has fixed results, cottage everything and you know your research will be decent. A SE by comparison can be awesome, or can completely suck, depending on how much leverage you can apply to the mechanics to achieve your goal at a given moment. To maximize efficiency typically the game follows a tech burst-infrastructure burst-tech burst-military burst-tech burst etc - thats the beauty of an SE, you can switch your whole empire from production to science and back again in a heartbeat, to meet current demands.
Historically SE's have been shunned and articles/comparisons about them never seem to get the point, asking questions like "can you cottage the capital?" or "can you keep captured cottages?" Your whole economy is geared toward exploiting food. You're trading culture and food for production (via whiping and drafting) and GPPs for tech (leveraged by trading) and AI manipulation (via gifting techs for wars/peace) - all leveraged by your civics, so cottages dont really do much for you in the scheme of things
For learning purposes i'd recomend keeping an SE as pure as possible:
1) dont build a single cottage
2) set your science slider to 0% once you get libraries (save the cash for your culture slider (hapiness) later and upgrades for high xp units
3) play a philo leader (passive benefit)
4) play a spiritual leader (you will reach a point where you want to tweak civics constantly through the course of a game)
5) You might also consider playing a few OCC games, as those strongly favor a SE (on a micro level), the tricks of which you can later extrapolate from - for example a high food location with the globe theatre can be the most obscene powerhouse of military production - you can get that badboy up to 400+ turns of (ignored) unhappiness if you're evil enough
1. level - You cant normally (everything random, standard or above size map) beat deity without using a SE, whereas at emperor or below pretty much any strategy can work
2. leader - A SE is all about leverage and flexibility, and if you really want to see it fly then you need to change civics way too often to not be spiritual. Similarly you're gimping yourself by not being philosophical though thats a passive benefit and less critical. Certainly Gandi (spiritual/philo) demands a SE - you can get liberalism reliably by 400ad epic speed at diety with him, as a benchmark.
3. Your objectives - some games you just want to play one or the other. CE's require much less micromanagement. All other things being equal a SE favors a warmonger game, as your production (especially military production) can be far higher than a CE can achieve.
4. terrain - a floodplain/hills and/or stone start definately makes you lean towards an SE
The problem with a SE is that you need to know a lot more about the game mechanics to make it work. A CE is a sure thing (below immortal) because it has fixed results, cottage everything and you know your research will be decent. A SE by comparison can be awesome, or can completely suck, depending on how much leverage you can apply to the mechanics to achieve your goal at a given moment. To maximize efficiency typically the game follows a tech burst-infrastructure burst-tech burst-military burst-tech burst etc - thats the beauty of an SE, you can switch your whole empire from production to science and back again in a heartbeat, to meet current demands.
Historically SE's have been shunned and articles/comparisons about them never seem to get the point, asking questions like "can you cottage the capital?" or "can you keep captured cottages?" Your whole economy is geared toward exploiting food. You're trading culture and food for production (via whiping and drafting) and GPPs for tech (leveraged by trading) and AI manipulation (via gifting techs for wars/peace) - all leveraged by your civics, so cottages dont really do much for you in the scheme of things
For learning purposes i'd recomend keeping an SE as pure as possible:
1) dont build a single cottage
2) set your science slider to 0% once you get libraries (save the cash for your culture slider (hapiness) later and upgrades for high xp units
3) play a philo leader (passive benefit)
4) play a spiritual leader (you will reach a point where you want to tweak civics constantly through the course of a game)
5) You might also consider playing a few OCC games, as those strongly favor a SE (on a micro level), the tricks of which you can later extrapolate from - for example a high food location with the globe theatre can be the most obscene powerhouse of military production - you can get that badboy up to 400+ turns of (ignored) unhappiness if you're evil enough
acidsatyr
be water my friend...
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Phyacis's report was right on spot. SE works in bursts , cottage game is linear. ONLY way to gain advantage is not to follow linear expansion, but to work in bursts.
It is worth remembering that, you can know that you won’t play CE, simply by never building cottages. But, you can't know in advance if your economy , at least pre liberalism or so, will be more se or more ce. Example is DaveMcW's game. He wanted to play CE, but he effectively played SE by farming his capital and not relying on buearocracy, because it was obvious that that strategy would be far better than choosing to cottage spam Moscow.
It is worth remembering that, you can know that you won’t play CE, simply by never building cottages. But, you can't know in advance if your economy , at least pre liberalism or so, will be more se or more ce. Example is DaveMcW's game. He wanted to play CE, but he effectively played SE by farming his capital and not relying on buearocracy, because it was obvious that that strategy would be far better than choosing to cottage spam Moscow.
Which DaveMcW game is that?
I'm having trouble effectively running a SE on monarch. After I eliminate or beat to irrelevance a couple neighbors, I've ususally fallen so far behind in tech I can't continue my conquest (even though I am in first place in score). I'm looking for threads that may have some tips or detailed explanation of the SE economy (timing, etc.). I've read Acidsatyr's (unfinished) immortal challenge which is what got me started on the idea of trying SE in the first place. I think I get the general concept, but my execution is not working. I'm probably not timing my whipping or civics properly.
If anyone can point me to a thread with good info for SE management, much appreciated.
I'm having trouble effectively running a SE on monarch. After I eliminate or beat to irrelevance a couple neighbors, I've ususally fallen so far behind in tech I can't continue my conquest (even though I am in first place in score). I'm looking for threads that may have some tips or detailed explanation of the SE economy (timing, etc.). I've read Acidsatyr's (unfinished) immortal challenge which is what got me started on the idea of trying SE in the first place. I think I get the general concept, but my execution is not working. I'm probably not timing my whipping or civics properly.
If anyone can point me to a thread with good info for SE management, much appreciated.
Mr. Civtastic
Prince
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2006
- Messages
- 488
Im pretty close to that.
Philosophical: SE
Financial: CE
Spiritual: SE
Pyramids: Probably SE
Parthenon: Probably SE
Ive come to a conclusion that I love Spritual for SE. I was changing civics constantly...in particular slavery and caste system, mercantilism and free market, pacifism and organized religion and free religion. Its just so versatile and adaptable...its addictive. In my current game I was running a small deficit at 30% science slider but researching at a decent rate. I was first to calavry and wanted to upgrade my knights and war elephants...but with my current money situation that just wasnt happening. I switched to caste system from slavery and put as many great merchants as I could squeeze out. My money went through the roof and I was done upgrading in around ten turns. All the gm points also turned me a great merchant, who did a trade mission to fund the riflemen upgrade I need a couple techs later.
SE is more hands-on, but I also find it more fun. The burst description is dead on.
CE has some major weakness:
- barbarians
- war/invasion
- long evolve time
- no GPP
- less production/food at the beginning (which is important for growth)
Though SE generate less gold in long term, but farm is way easier and faster to manage than cottage. If it got destroyed, you can just build a new one
with SE you can also build water mills, workshop at Plain to improve production without worrying "OMG I HAVE TO COTTAGE ALL TILES"
- barbarians
- war/invasion
- long evolve time
- no GPP
- less production/food at the beginning (which is important for growth)
Though SE generate less gold in long term, but farm is way easier and faster to manage than cottage. If it got destroyed, you can just build a new one
with SE you can also build water mills, workshop at Plain to improve production without worrying "OMG I HAVE TO COTTAGE ALL TILES"
I'm finding that I'll seriously cottage one city (hopefully with rivers, food specials and/or flood plains) for big commerce. I'll want this as my capital, running bureaucracy. If my original capital is not suitable for this, I'll seek to move it.
I'll try to keep the slider weighted toward science, so this city produces big beakers. Of course I build Oxford here. Maybe Ironworks later.
Everywhere else, I have a combination of farms/production improvements/resource improvements. One city, with a few hills or other production specials, will be the military city. Heroic Epic and West Point go here. Another, hopefully with a lot of space for farms and a shrine, will be the main money/gp city. I'll liberally use the whip for big projects, and try to emphasize food to bring the city up to size again.
I like building Angor Wat for extra production for priest specialists. After I get enough great prophets for the shrines, I may shift to merchant specialists.
I'll generally not build cottages anywhere other than the capitol, except that I may leave in place cottages in captured cities.
Anyway, I don't know if you'd consider all that a SE or a CE. It's CE in a way, because I'm keeping the slider weighted toward science, and counting on those capital cottages for a huge chunk of my science. But, I'm building very few cottages, and using farms and specialists in most places.
I'll try to keep the slider weighted toward science, so this city produces big beakers. Of course I build Oxford here. Maybe Ironworks later.
Everywhere else, I have a combination of farms/production improvements/resource improvements. One city, with a few hills or other production specials, will be the military city. Heroic Epic and West Point go here. Another, hopefully with a lot of space for farms and a shrine, will be the main money/gp city. I'll liberally use the whip for big projects, and try to emphasize food to bring the city up to size again.
I like building Angor Wat for extra production for priest specialists. After I get enough great prophets for the shrines, I may shift to merchant specialists.
I'll generally not build cottages anywhere other than the capitol, except that I may leave in place cottages in captured cities.
Anyway, I don't know if you'd consider all that a SE or a CE. It's CE in a way, because I'm keeping the slider weighted toward science, and counting on those capital cottages for a huge chunk of my science. But, I'm building very few cottages, and using farms and specialists in most places.
It's always situational with me. Leader, start, nearby resources/terrain etc. are considered early on (in the first twenty to fifty turns, depending on map/gamespeed), and a decision made (and, as far as possible, stuck to).
However, in my current game (Hannibal, Noble - my first game on Warlords), I've ended up with neither an SE or a CE thus far. I'm at about 400bc and have yet to work a cottage or a farm, and have only used one specialist (an engineer, and that only 'til my happiness was restored for whipping).
Instead, I've used the GLh/ToA/Colossus combo to build a trade/coastal economy. With no rivers, little grassland, a financial leader, lots of coast and lots of plains/ice/tundra, neither specialists nor cottages could provide the same benefits in terms of research and growth. Whipped lighthouses and settled merchants have kept my cities growing to make use of as many coastal tiles as possible.
Once I've conquered some more temperate regions, and my wonders near obsolescence, I'll probably start using cottages. But, at least in a case like this, it is possible to get ahead in tech without using SE or CE (iirc I'm two or three expensive techs ahead of my neighbours, whilst my income is double that of the civ in second place and more than three times the average, according to the demographics screen).
WE (Water Economy) anyone?
Unless my leader is Philosophical, or I capture Pyramids and/or Parthenon early, I won't run a dedicated SE. I may devote one or two cities to scientists early, generating 2 or 3 GSs to lightbulb some of the key pre-Liberalism techs and Printing Press, but I see that as a short-term expedient prior to the establishment of a proper GP farm. You might call that a hybrid slanted towards CE, or a hybrid that transitions to a full CE in the midgame. A Philosophical leader or Pyramids/Parthenon (captured, I never spend the hammers to build them) make the full-blown SE much more tempting. At that point individual cities choose specialists or cottages based largely on terrain (large food surplus from relatively few tiles = specialists; modest food surplus but lots of grasslands = cottages), usually resulting in a hybrid that slants towards SE.
peace,
lilnev
peace,
lilnev
GoodGame
Red, White, & Blue, baby!
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How much you use it depends upon irrigation possibilities and food bonuses. If there are none, and nothing better for your workers to do, then might as well cottage spam untill you can farm. It just means less specialists---just don't sacrifice a specialists just to work a cottage for gold.
& always play SE if you're philosophical, or expansive with a lot of food (and maybe even Industrial with your wonders spread out evenly between cities).
