Questions about the Ancient Greeks

bloodofages

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Like all Americans i know little or have no ideal about other nations. :( i think we should get to know other nations better, it makes me sad when most of my friends can't even find England on a map! Sorry got off topic. What did the anceint greeks look like? Where they the blond and blue eyes that the movies try to make them? Also in the movies greek women are wearing very little clothing..in a book i read once said that women back then wore alot more then that and hardly left their house. Also homsexuals in anceint greece, i asked my history teacher about that and he nearly had a heart attack! Infact homsexual in history are never even brought up i don't know why. Wasn't it true that men back then were "bisexual" and women were just consider as low as animals? Also what did Alexander, the great look like?(blond blue eyes? Darkskin with brown hair?) Also where was he buried at? I am willing to bet that our movies are very wrong about history
 
this would be best put in the off topic forum and also google for some answers and yes homosexuality was fairly rampant in ancient rome and greece. Least thats what I was taught by my history teacher, who happened to be gay.
 
Like all Americans i know little or have no ideal about other nations

I would prefer changing that to "most" ;o)
 
bloodofages said:
Like all Americans i know little or have no ideal about other nations. :( i think we should get to know other nations better, it makes me sad when most of my friends can't even find England on a map! Sorry got off topic. What did the anceint greeks look like? Where they the blond and blue eyes that the movies try to make them? Also in the movies greek women are wearing very little clothing..in a book i read once said that women back then wore alot more then that and hardly left their house. Also homsexuals in anceint greece, i asked my history teacher about that and he nearly had a heart attack! Infact homsexual in history are never even brought up i don't know why. Wasn't it true that men back then were "bisexual" and women were just consider as low as animals? Also what did Alexander, the great look like?(blond blue eyes? Darkskin with brown hair?) Also where was he buried at? I am willing to bet that our movies are very wrong about history

In some settings, homosexuality was actively encouraged. Spartan soldiers were expected to form homosexual pairings with other soldiers- the logic was that they'd fight much harder in support of comrades that they loved.

I once wrote a story about Thermopylae that shocked some readers with its gay sex content- but it's historically accurate.
 
I don't know about greek civilization, but I do know that sodomy was encouraged for Romans so that they would cater to their needs without getting anyone pregnant before marriage.

I also know that Roman women frequently died their hair blond. Using what I'm not sure, but it was probably very toxic.
 
Kafka2 said:
In some settings, homosexuality was actively encouraged. Spartan soldiers were expected to form homosexual pairings with other soldiers- the logic was that they'd fight much harder in support of comrades that they loved.

I once wrote a story about Thermopylae that shocked some readers with its gay sex content- but it's historically accurate.
Spartan men were not allowed to marry until they reached 40. Also, adultery and extra-marital hetrosexual intercourse were capital offenses. If you think for a second that Spartan men remained celibate until marriage then you're ignorant of basic human nature.
 
The Greeks were credited to have invented the first "computer." Pottery was used for these ancient devices.

This knowledge came with the finding of ODE on a Grecian Urn. ODE stands for "Ordinary Differential Equations" and is the base language for computer programming today. In fact there is a famous poem written about it, called "ODE on a Grecian Urn."
 
Isn't there a famous Plato quote where he predicts the Television and how stupid we'll get from watching it? I'm serious actually. He said something along the lines of...

In the future there will be a box from where light emits which people will watch. Hopefully people will learn to discern the thoughts from the mere light.
 
superisis said:
I also know that Roman women frequently died their hair blond. Using what I'm not sure, but it was probably very toxic.
Pigeon poop.
 
I was thinking of some chemical... but it could've been pigeon poop.
 
Ancient Greeks come along many lines of tribal groups. The more they integrated in a Hellenistic culture, they mixed and exchanged aspects of many sub groups into one big Hellenic group.

Archaic times:
Minoans are thought to be expert fisherman and merchants from Aegypt. Black hair and what is considered Black eyes. Minoans are the primary line for island people in the Aegean.
Celtics are thought to have been where the Mycenae and Illyric migrant came from and there is an ancient trade route between the first city-states of Greece to Illyria into Northern Europe where the Celts were. There is no certainty as to what these migrants looked like because later groups were the ones that we receive most documentation from, that brings us to Ancient Greeks

Ancient Greece
Two main invasions: Doric (establishing a capital at Sparta) and Ionic (Thessaly, Attica, Ionia and Ionic Islands to the West).

Doric descendents have a variety of Blonde hair Green eyes to Hazel to Brownish color. Mycenae are thought to have Dark Brown hair and eyes and had villages (horia) in these areas.

Ionic (as to Athenians) varied from Black to Brown to Blonde and even Red hair.

Helen (Eleni) of Sparta, was Blonde haired for sure. I dont know of her eye color. She was Spartan.

Alexander the Great came from the blood of Royals that established the Macedonian region. These Macedonians came from Argos in Southern Greece. They have the characteristic features of Acheaen and Argolis Light Blonde to dirty Blonde and Brown eyes. Aegai, Pella, Thessalonica are all capital cities of the Macedonia that Alexander was raised in. The region documented, wrote, traded, and spoke Ancent Greek Linear A and Linear B. I just went to a Greek Folk Festival were the regions of Macedonia, Mykonos and Byzantion-Constantinople were the focus. We learned Macedonian Dances and Dances from Mykonos. Greek Macedonians used the huge drum you might had seen at the Olympics and used musical insturments made of Brass unlike the rest of Greece which used mostly String and Flute and Drum. Macedonian culture was more celebratory and has an awesome use of half notes, step notes, etc. Mykonos uses the cultural trends of the Greek islands that are more sexual and energetic and open to Women and Men.

It helps to study Ancient Greek cultural bases before you look towards Sexuality. The discussion of Sexuality is often misunderstood because not "most Americans" but "most global" people do not understand Hellenistic culture. But we Greeks are honored when countries coin themselves as being Hellenised. The Homosexual community is claiming to be a Hellenised Society but they are much different. All Greek Sexual acts throughout time you must think of as being related to their religious perception towards sex. So when we trend to the first Greeks, you have to look at the Goddess they worshipped. Mycenae Age, the Woman's body was glorified more than the man. With a lack of research on sexuality, the only conclusion is that Women were the dominate sex in Mycenae Social behavior. As outsiders you look at wars and documents and say, but we only wrote of men, during this time families were documented from the Woman's side of the family. As you move towards the Classical Age, the evolution of Social behavior depended on each cities Temples and the stories behind the God/Goddess the had within their city. Many times the stories of these Gods are the accepted behavior of this social groups behavior. That is where you look an incest as being accepted. But why weren't any of the Gods homosexual. You might find biased papers that will say otherwise, but none of the Pagan gods were gay. Sexual behavior was often a gift to the Gods and an expression of Love. In Greek I believe we have somewhere around 4 to 5 words for different types of love. Lust is not one of them. Greeks often discribed homosexual behavior as being lust, this is not to say that these relationships did not include love or devotion. Spartan military did not have mandatory gay relationships, but I believe you are speaking of Thebes. The Thebian military had homosexual relationships within their franernal groups. In Athens it is often said that older men that took students in like how you hear many Warriors were taught by Aristotle. No documentation of Homosexual behavior between Teacher and Student is expressed when Homosexual behavior is openly spoken about in the Thebian Leagues.

The culture and acceptance of so many variations of Love is still confusing to people who are not Greek. That is why so many times other languages have to look to the Greek language for words they have not adopted yet. Like when the Greeks spoke of the word Freedom, no other language in the world had that word. Still today, Greek has words for emotions that are not concentrated on in America or other languages. That isnt to say these people are not aware of those emotions, but it is to say that the cultural trends of that habit are at a different place in development for Greeks than say for Americans. Like the word filotimi, which no other language has today, concerning the honor of helping another person without reason not to confuse with philanthrope, that means something else. It of course has more meaning behind it, but it is not easy enough to simply define and hand it over as you have now accepted a new idea into your culture.

Socrates would have my head on a platter if I did not state that my discussion is not the one representation of the differing Hellenic Cultural and Social Habits of their times or the descending times which we Greeks today live in. But what I MUST say is that the passing and protection of our historical theories, ideas, characteristics is THE MOST important aspect of our culture above anything else. Under 500 years of slavery in the Ottoman Empire, the Greek Orthodox Church much like the Ancient Pagan Temples of Greece made the utmost effort to preserve the Greek identy and historical documents. You may not understand why, but it is our cultural pride and habit to place our Greek identity/ Hellenic Identity above all else as a people. We were a diverse people, almost always, but we did hand down information as it was and not as we wanted it. Otherwise the battle at Salamis against Persia would have been a humilating accord, same with the Athenian loss at Syracuse, same with the Homeric story of Troy, and same with the betrayal of a Greek that lead Franks into Constantinople who left us defenseless against the Turks. I am not here to provide false data though I may by accident. But Historic accuracy comes first before our idealistic past. Because many homosexuals will say Greek are homophobes but that is not the truth. Or that Greeks are Arrogant because we will not allow a Slavic Nation to name itself after the Northern area of Macedonia, or that Greeks are racist because we angrily express our hate that the Turks unjustly massacred innocent Greeks at a much more brutal and extensive height than any other people as they did with Armenians and Kurds and Georgians. I can bring my knowledge to this discussion, if you would like me to. But Im only here for discussion, not to argue righteousness. Both arguments are valid for and against Greeks but many Greeks were Blonde hair/Green eyed. Also remember Hellenism is the acculturation of non-Greek tribes who are now part of the Greek bloodline. Greeks are Minoan today. Trojans, Lydians, Mysians, Phrygians, Lycians, Thacians, Macedonians, Ionians, Dorians, Mycenaens, Cyprians, Sicilians, Syrians and Egyptians of today all have Greek blood. There are also documentations of Bactrian-Greek cities around the Hindu-Kush and even beyond into the Sinkiang region of China there are villages that speak Greek. They have Blonde hair Blue/Green eyes.
 
If you've read any of Plato's dialogues - and you should because they're very readable and witty - you will know that they all appear to take place in a gay setting. Socrates, the main character, is invariably found in discussion with young, beautiful, intelligent men, and he apparently thinks little of women - in the Phaedo, his deathbed dialogue, he chooses to spend his final minutes discussing philosophy with his male friends, and doesn't want to see his own wife. Moreover, when we look at Plato's discussions of love, such as in the Phaedrus and the Symposium, we find that the model of a loving relationship is not between a man and a woman - it is between an older man and a younger one.

It's sometimes hard for us to understand this as often it almost sounds like child abuse. The ideal actually lies somewhere between what we would consider a sexual relationship and what we would think of as close friendship. In the ideal, the older man is in love with the younger one (probably a teenager). In the Symposium (a drinking party) the characters take turns to make speeches in praise of love. Phaedrus goes first - suggesting that he is offering a conventional viewpoint - and among other things says this -

"If only there were a way to start a city or an army made up of lovers and the boys they love! Theirs would be the best possible system of society, for they would hold back from all that is shameful, and seek honour in each other's eyes. Even a few of them, in battle side by side, would conquer all the world, I'd say. For a man in love would never allow his loved one, of all people, to see him leaving ranks or dropping weapons. He'd rather die a thousand deaths!"

Yet most of the time this isn't explicitly sexual. It's almost like having a strong crush on someone. And indeed these relationships were often not consummated; if they were, it tended to be in the manner we delicately call "inter crucis". The idea was to venerate the qualities of youth, beauty and intelligence in the young man. For his part, he would respect the older man and learn from him.

The prime example of this relationship in Greek mythology was Achilles and Patroclus in Homer's Iliad. Homer gives no suggestion that Achilles and Patroclus were lovers, and he does not give them ages; he apparently regards them simply as close friends. But by Plato's time it was commonly believed that Achilles was extremely young - a teenager, perhaps - and Patroclus was older; and that they were lovers. This explained Achilles' rage when Patroclus was killed. Achilles therefore had been the perfect youth - strong, beautiful, and courageous - and Patroclus his admiring older lover.
 
Greek Stud that was a great post! I wish you could write some more stuff. Greeks are our cultural ancestors and I'd love to know more about their culture and way of thinking. Thank you!
 
i just learned that the ancient greeks actually invented the earliest form of bubble gum... they used to chew on resin.
 
I thought that early homo sapiens sapiens chewed resin.
 
superisis said:
I thought that early homo sapiens sapiens chewed resin.
Thats probably true but we'll credit the Greeks for it anyway.

Greek stud pretty much covered the part about invaders and hair color. I believe most of the invading groups (Dorians etc.) were of Celtic origin from the north. Thats why they had blondish hair and paler skin (and ofcourse the warlike agression). They brought the indo-European language to the Mediterranean (in the Greek and Italian peninsulas). I believe the original inhabitants were more like your typical dark haired Mediterranean people that had descended from the Minoans and other more ancient (probably Stone-Age people) in the area.
 
The homsexuality fing...
Read Plato's dialog "The Symposion".
It's fairly explicit and detailed about Greek (Athenian) attitudes towards women, love between men etc.

And its pretty clear that sexual attraction for young men was very common and accepted. The only time Plato's mouthpiece Socrates is ever at a loss for words is the time he has accidentaly happened to peek under the clothes of one of the pretty young men in his company. :lol: In "Protagoras" I think.
 
superisis said:
I thought that early homo sapiens sapiens chewed resin.

yes but they thought it was food... the greeks used to do it just for chewing pleasure and spit it out.
 
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