Quick Answers / 'Newbie' Questions

[ori]

I found on google, messageboards mentioning some (canadian?) versions came with a 3rd dvd with just the manual in pdf form. Anyone got that? I'll even point you to a ftp where you can upload it to if its too big to email/post at rapidshare ...

I know its not what you are asking for - but Ginger_Ale's FAQ and the War Academy are a much better source of information than the manuals...

After installing CIV on my computer, I found a folder called "Manual" inside the folder called "Civilization IV". It contained three pdf manual files, one each in English, French, and German. This is the Mac version of CIV. I don't know if the Windows version includes these files or not.

The Windows version does not include it - and given that Chronicles is advertised as "including tech trees for all games" I doubt that they included the manuals

 

[Roland Johansen]

RJ, granted that I need to build more workers earlier, when? There's just so many things a new city needs built. Does anyone ever establish a city on floodplains as a worker factory? If there's an up to date thread on this a url would satisfy me.

If I recall correctly, I had advised you to not build certain buildings in certain cities, because those cities didn't benefit very much from these buildings. Those cities could have used the time to build workers. If the choise is between a 90 hammer library that will increase the research output of the city by 1 or a 60 hammer worker that will improve many tiles around a new city and add many units of food, production and commerce to that new city, then the choise should be easy. In civ, there are always many things to do that will improve your empire. But some improve your empire more than others.

I typically start my game by building a worker to improve my capital. In some games where there is not a lot of land to be improved around the capital and there are seafood resources, I might start with a workboat. I might even build a second worker in my capital if there is a lot of land around the capital that can be improved (many forests that can be chopped for instance). The worker that will improve the second city will be build in the capital. Such a tiny new city would take far too long to build a worker and it can't grow in the meantime. This worker will probably be (one of) the worker(s) that had been improving the capital. The third city will also immediately get a worker to improve it. But I can't predict which city will build it and whether another worker is needed when I already have 2. That depends on the terrain and how far along the improvements in the other cities are.

In general, I'll let an already existing worker move to a new city. Often the road towards the new city will already be under construction before the new city has been build. One of my older and stronger cities will then build a new worker to help the older cities if this is needed. So in general, a worker will be improving a new city shortly after its construction. If the new city is build in a jungle, then maybe 2 workers will be send to improve the new city.

The goal is to minimize the time it takes for a new city to become useful. The first few sizes in growth and the first few terrain improvements will double, triple and quadruple its output. A size 3 city with 3 improvements is often 4-5 times as effective as a size 1 city without improvements.

I was wondering if it is possible to set the Era in which your game is limited to. For example, I want my game to get to the Medieval Era, but I don't want it to advance any further technology-wise, but I'd still like to play my game out. I know that I'm able to set which Era I start in, but was wondering if there was any way to set a limit on how technology advances throughout the game.

The best way to do this would be by modding the other technologies out of the game. This would take some time and some experience in modding xml-files a few months ago, but recently TheLopez has created a tech tree editor. I would advice you to take a look at that. It might help you to quickly create a mod that will do exactly what you want to. Here you can find the Lopez tech tree editor.

 

[a4phantom]

If I recall correctly, I had advised you to not build certain buildings in certain cities, because those cities didn't benefit very much from these buildings. Those cities could have used the time to build workers.

Yes, and I committed to using cheaper methods than libraries to spread city borders (which was the purpose, not to improve science yield from a city with no commerce). I guess if I continue to not absorb a religion until fairly late in the game, I'll resort to researching mysticism earlier. I suppose in cities where the best squares are adjacent, I could even put off trying to expand borders which is usually my first priority.

I had a thought on a future victory condition: Religious unification. You have to have the holy city and shrine of the religion that every civ belongs to (and you need all civs to have it for 20 turns or some length of time), and every city in the world (possibly excluding size 1 and 2 cities) has to have it present. I think this would make for an interesting mix of diplomacy and crusading, as you'd have to get your missionaries into every heathen city one way or the other. Essentially you'd be adopting the goals and tactics of the Muslim Caliphate and the medieval Church. So what do you think? It might be a little too easy, but I've never seen the world united under one religion, the AI loves having the holy city of its state religion too much. Has anything like this been tried in a mod?

 

[Roland Johansen]

I had a thought on a future victory condition: Religious unification. You have to have the holy city and shrine of the religion that every civ belongs to (and you need all civs to have it for 20 turns or some length of time), and every city in the world (possibly excluding size 1 and 2 cities) has to have it present. I think this would make for an interesting mix of diplomacy and crusading, as you'd have to get your missionaries into every heathen city one way or the other. Essentially you'd be adopting the goals and tactics of the Muslim Caliphate and the medieval Church. So what do you think? It might be a little too easy, but I've never seen the world united under one religion, the AI loves having the holy city of its state religion too much. Has anything like this been tried in a mod?

I have no idea if it has been tried before. It sounds fun. I think it could lead to very very short games on duel maps, but would be fun on the larger maps. Still easier than conquest and domination, I think. Except when you can't get open borders or the opponent uses theocracy. In those cases spreading your religion would be extremely hard as you'd have to get the AI to open its borders and use another civic.

I don't think that it would be possible to get the AI to be good at it. Diplomacy is hard for the AI. The AI doesn't have a goal, it only tries to optimize some things locally.

 

[cabert]

Yes, and I committed to using cheaper methods than libraries to spread city borders (which was the purpose, not to improve science yield from a city with no commerce). I guess if I continue to not absorb a religion until fairly late in the game, I'll resort to researching mysticism earlier. I suppose in cities where the best squares are adjacent, I could even put off trying to expand borders which is usually my first priority.

this is in no way a newbie question (since there is no question, and you're not a newbie )

However I won't miss an opportunity to give my very precious (to myself) opinion :
Culture pop is usually (at least when you keep important resources are in the first ring, which I think is a good move) secondary. If you cannot avoid settling a city that requires a culture pop, go for a monument.
If you're really desperate, think of caste system for a few turns (5 being a minimum and being enough) and hiring an artist.
You don't have CoL? well well well it gets hard
T
he library is indeed an option, but you should go for granary first (whip) to make further growth (and whippability) faster.
The build option is then
- granary (whip)
- library (whip)
the other way to do it is
- worker
- library (chop)
direct library is simply too long.

 

[a4phantom]

I have no idea if it has been tried before. It sounds fun. I think it could lead to very very short games on duel maps, but would be fun on the larger maps. Still easier than conquest and domination, I think. Except when you can't get open borders or the opponent uses theocracy. In those cases spreading your religion would be extremely hard as you'd have to get the AI to open its borders and use another civic.

That's when the True Faith, which is inevitably a religion of peace, must reluctantly be spread with the sword!

I don't think that it would be possible to get the AI to be good at it. Diplomacy is hard for the AI. The AI doesn't have a goal, it only tries to optimize some things locally.

Touche, but the same lack of victory condition orientation keeps the AI from winning by Domination or Culture right?

 

[a4phantom]

this is in no way a newbie question (since there is no question, and you're not a newbie )

However I won't miss an opportunity to give my very precious (to myself) opinion :
Culture pop is usually (at least when you keep important resources are in the first ring, which I think is a good move) secondary. If you cannot avoid settling a city that requires a culture pop, go for a monument.
If you're really desperate, think of caste system for a few turns (5 being a minimum and being enough) and hiring an artist.
You don't have CoL? well well well it gets hard
T
he library is indeed an option, but you should go for granary first (whip) to make further growth (and whippability) faster.
The build option is then
- granary (whip)
- library (whip)
the other way to do it is
- worker
- library (chop)
direct library is simply too long.

Thanks for the tips. By saving a few research turns not developing Mysticism (I used to a be a religion founding junkie and maybe I let the pendulum swing too far in my recovery!) until later, I stiffled young cities' early growth by ruling out monuments.

 

[Roland Johansen]

Touche, but the same lack of victory condition orientation keeps the AI from winning by Domination or Culture right?

It has not so much to do with a lack of victory condition orientation then a lack of long term planning and long term goals. For instance, the BetterAI mod got the AI to win cultural victories. I think this is possible because it is a local goal. You have to get 3 cities to produce gigantic amounts of culture. That's something the AI can optimize in those 3 cities.

Domination might be achievable if you can get the AI to build massive amounts of units and use them in large stacks to attack. This worked in one of the earlier version of this BetterAI project. But since the defence of the AI has been improved in later builds, the AI is again incapable of a domination victory.

I think that your victory condition would be more difficult for the AI than a domination victory because the diplomacy factor is important and I think it is very hard for the AI to be good at diplomacy because it is hard to define what the goals of the diplomatic actions are and what should be optimised in each and every turn. The AI essentially plays one turn at a time and thus has to optimize things in that one turn. Diplomacy just doesn't work that way.

All of this of course doesn't mean that it isn't a fun idea for a victory condition. I guess that most modders don't consider implications for the AI until a later stage of development. Fun first.

 

[a4phantom]

It has not so much to do with a lack of victory condition orientation then a lack of long term planning and long term goals.

That's basically what I meant. The AI won't commit to a cultural victory and focus all resources primarily on producing as much culture as possible, spread as evenly as possible among its top three cultural cities. Some AI will conquer large chunks of the world, but out of mania not as part of a structured strategy to get to the required percentages. The Space Race victory probably falls into place a little more naturally, which is probably why it's the only Victory Condition I've ever seen the AI approach.

For instance, the BetterAI mod got the AI to win cultural victories. I think this is possible because it is a local goal. You have to get 3 cities to produce gigantic amounts of culture. That's something the AI can optimize in those 3 cities.

Domination might be achievable if you can get the AI to build massive amounts of units and use them in large stacks to attack. This worked in one of the earlier version of this BetterAI project. But since the defence of the AI has been improved in later builds, the AI is again incapable of a domination victory.

I haven't played any mods (besides a few of the Warlords one: I enjoyed Chinese Unification and Ghengis Khan, but they were easy, and Alexander was lame, which saddens me because I'm eventually named after the fellow). So if people would care to recommend their favorite mods with brief descriptions of why they think they're the coolest, I'd appreciate it, I have a long period of mandated inactivity while recovering from last week's surgery (which went well) to kill time during.

I think that your victory condition would be more difficult for the AI than a domination victory because the diplomacy factor is important and I think it is very hard for the AI to be good at diplomacy because it is hard to define what the goals of the diplomatic actions are and what should be optimised in each and every turn. The AI essentially plays one turn at a time and thus has to optimize things in that one turn. Diplomacy just doesn't work that way.

What I would suggest to help the AI pursue my new victory condition, and I am not a mathematician or a computer expert, is to have the civs with the holy cities of their state religion assign larger diplomacy bonuses/penalties to other civs depending on their shared or different religions. Therefore, even Gandi would get pushy about religion if he controlled the Dao holy city (and was Dao, obviously) and try to convert the world to follow his religion, enabling his Religious Victory. Crusades would follow as a natural consequence of ramped up religious tension, and he would be inclined to require conversion in a peace treaty (I don't know if the religiously pushy leaders like Isabela already do that, I'd assume so). The problem might ironically be vassals, who as far as I know you cannot force to convert and who you cannot eliminate or coerce through war.

All of this of course doesn't mean that it isn't a fun idea for a victory condition. I guess that most modders don't consider implications for the AI until a later stage of development. Fun first.

Apparently Firaxis felt the same way, since the AI doesn't intelligently pursue victory conditions now!

 

[ChinaBlue]

Sure but I'm a feminist and treat men and women equally, so I call everyone dude. It gets me in trouble but less trouble than calling both "hon" or "babe".

Ok that makes a lot more sense than not being able to find her on Google. Sorry, I'm pretty drugged up these days. It's not really a mod, I just used a xml file editor* to add Great People names...

Call me dude or something similar, no problem. Besides, the overwhelming testosteron radiation coming from these forums is cultivating my cute feminine mustache into a genuine omar sharif anyway

Thanks for showing me how to edit what files to change GP names, much appreciated. It seems this method will give me an elvis model with the name of Nina Simone or something, right? Still, it'll be fun.

 

[Roland Johansen]

The Space Race victory probably falls into place a little more naturally, which is probably why it's the only Victory Condition I've ever seen the AI approach.

The AI tries to optimize each and every city. That means that each city will have a good research and good production and nice size. It isn't as good as a human at this, but it's ok. That means that it will reach new technologies and be able to build all the buildings in cities that improve that city. This naturally leads to a space race. But it's just local optimization and the AI will not build a few great production cities to build the space parts and it won't build the expensive engine in its best production city. The AI is not really going for a space race, it's just reaching that stage of the game because it has build decent cities.

So if people would care to recommend their favorite mods with brief descriptions of why they think they're the coolest, I'd appreciate it, I have a long period of mandated inactivity while recovering from last week's surgery (which went well) to kill time during.

I hope that everything is ok and that you recover quickly. I haven't played a lot with the great mods that are created in this forum. You could take a look at the completed modpacks section. They can be found here. Mods with a great following (long threads, many stars next to thread, many voters for the mod) will probably be quite good. That many people can't be wrong.

What I would suggest to help the AI pursue my new victory condition, and I am not a mathematician or a computer expert, is to have the civs with the holy cities of their state religion assign larger diplomacy bonuses/penalties to other civs depending on their shared or different religions. Therefore, even Gandi would get pushy about religion if he controlled the Dao holy city (and was Dao, obviously) and try to convert the world to follow his religion, enabling his Religious Victory.

Yes, that might work and help the AI with the victory condition a bit. It would naturally lead the AI to do the things that will lead to a Religious victory on a turn by turn basis.
What would also work is give the AI with the shrine of a religion a higher priority to build missionaries and a higher priority to enter foreign lands and convert cities. If such an AI has missionaries but it can't convert cities, then it becomes aggressive towards the closest nation that doesn't want to be converted (closed borders, theocracy).

By the way, all of the above has absolutely nothing to do with newbie questions.

 

[a4phantom]

I hope that everything is ok and that you recover quickly.

Thank you, I think I will be alright although I had to cancel a job and a move to Chicago. I got out of the hospital in less than half the time expected (because their firewall blocked civfanatics), and this morning was pretty rough but I think I'm on my way. I'm really thrilled to have this behind me, I wish I'd been able to get this done months ago.

I haven't played a lot with the great mods that are created in this forum. You could take a look at the completed modpacks section. They can be found here. Mods with a great following (long threads, many stars next to thread, many voters for the mod) will probably be quite good.

That's what I'm looking for, thanks!

That many people can't be wrong.

Not everyone thinks that way: http://blog.fibrowalls.com/content/0411_dubya.jpg (Note: I am not endorsing or criticizing the cover's message, I just thought the title funny and jokingly relevant on its own)

Yes, that might work and help the AI with the victory condition a bit. It would naturally lead the AI to do the things that will lead to a Religious victory on a turn by turn basis.
What would also work is give the AI with the shrine of a religion a higher priority to build missionaries and a higher priority to enter foreign lands and convert cities. If such an AI has missionaries but it can't convert cities, then it becomes aggressive towards the closest nation that doesn't want to be converted (closed borders, theocracy).

Yes I thought of those, but I wanted to start by proposing things I knew the AI could easily be adapted to, stuff that would only mean changing a few numbers. Would those proposals be doable?

By the way, all of the above has absolutely nothing to do with newbie questions.

Et tu, Brute?

By the way RJ, do you remember our chat about Isaac Assimov's I, Robot? (Not Will Smith's, although his kid is cute and he is perhaps America's less embarassing celebrity). I finally read it, it was very good although I still like the Foundation Trilogy best.

 

[a4phantom]

Thanks for showing me how to edit what files to change GP names, much appreciated. It seems this method will give me an elvis model with the name of Nina Simone or something, right? Still, it'll be fun.

Possibly a court jester. Depends on when she shows up. Speaking of people looking inexplicably white in Civ4, what's up with Hannibal? If I'm not mistaken, and I probably am, shouldn't Carthaginians be some shade between Semitic and African? I suppose maybe the royals had Greek ancestors or something?

 

[Harald500]

Do anyone know how many cultural points I need in my 3 cities for a cultural win on large map and marathon speed?

 

[cabert]

Do anyone know how many cultural points I need in my 3 cities for a cultural win on large map and marathon speed?

marathon is double epic
epic is 1,5 normal
normal is 50 000 culture to be legendary.
Map size isn't relevant for this issue.

=
you need 150 000 total culture in your 3 cities to win
it's easier on quick if you ask me

 

[Harald500]

marathon is double epic
epic is 1,5 normal
normal is 50 000 culture to be legendary.
Map size isn't relevant for this issue.

=
you need 150 000 total culture in your 3 cities to win
it's easier on quick if you ask me

OK, Thanks!

Sh....!! That's a few GA's. Well, guess I'll go for domination ones again then..
I'v agreed to play a MP game on Balanced large map, two humans and 13 AI's on marathon speed. Noble.
Do you have any advices?

 

[Elandal]

The great work is tripled just like the culture level, so great works will be 12000 culture each instead of 4000. Otherwise great work would be useless on marathon.

 

[Harald500]

The great work is tripled just like the culture level, so great works will be 12000 culture each instead of 4000. Otherwise great work would be useless on marathon.

Ooohh...
So I only need about 30 of them then!?
Well, it's better than 90, but still....

 

[cabert]

Ooohh...
So I only need about 30 of them then!?
Well, it's better than 90, but still....

I hope you have other means to get some culture than GA

About the MP game you mentionned, kill'em all
warrior rush is pretty effective if you're agressive

 

[azzaman333]

How many units do the AI start with on Emporer?