Quick question(s)

[ArchGhost]

putzing around on Deity here to get comfortable with the differences in cost/AI speed. This is just training wheels stuff, I'm not really planning to play the game all the way out unless it goes extremely well. Thought I would stop for now and pick another brain or two for an opinion here

Here is the overview of tech and the diplo here:

Spoiler :

Charlie has that barb city, but he's actually NorthEast of me, near Peter. Hatty is just south of Charlie's barb city and bordering Pacal. No idea where AC is but doesn't seem important.

I got to Aes, put a turn in Alpha and got it last turn from Pacal. It's time to get some tradebacks so i can clear this dang jungle and maybe take a pig city up NW of the banana, Lighthouse my fish, etc.

How I'm reading things:
-I can swap either Buddhist or Jewish, but dare not. It's something to think about if they get tied up in wars though, to keep Peter happier. Until Monty show his hand I can't say.

-Hatty + Augustus are looking to quickly be a problem to if I trade with them, thought I don't know exactly know where Monty is, Peter and to an extent Pacal can be dangerous here.

-Trading two resources to Peter right now, health for happiness. I figure I can live with some unhealth if it can gets me to Pleased with him quicker, and I will soon clear out some of the jungle to reduce it.

-AC is Pacal's worst enemy, but he's the only one I can get Alpha value out of (Monty only gives Myst, he's teching it)


Is trading Alpha to Augustus too bad of an idea?
He's not put progress into it so depending on the techs traded I'll get + fair trade. It would possibly harm my one Pleased relationship (and Pacal has already plotted>gave up once already)

Or is just trading Aes around more with the guys I want as buddies (Peter mostly) a better call?
experience tells me that often holding onto monopolies doesn't play out (one of them eventually picks it up, it goes everywhere, you got nothing for your monopoly tech), and trading usually works out better. That's below Deity though. I don't see much value in hanging on to Aes as it just leads to the Music line and the AI doesn't (really sucks at?) bulb, so it's not a huge advancement. If anything it will just promote wonder building to trade it around I think

How much of this tradeback value stuff do I really need, like Sailing?
WFYABTA is harsher on Deity, and corners have to be cut sometimes, even in tech. I only have one fish but Sailing leads to Calendar for my Silk + Sugar + Banana (not the west one, I have one in BFC).

And if anyone is wondering if I have a game plan, well...Augustus will trade Ivory now, Peter likely when Pleased. A Construction attack could be possible here, and the target would likely be Hattie or maybe Pacal. I feel like I can't commit to it being so unsure of the landscape (What would Charlie do if I went for Hattie? etc) and if I *dont* take the ivory trade now it can be given away to someone else and unavailable later. I do have Bronze for Axes/Maces instead if that doesn't play out.

Overall I'm just kind of uncomfortable with picking a fight before wars start. I thought Pacal would've attacked me or Hatty by now but he gave up his plotting.

 

[krikav]

I trade for sailing sometimes, but I try to avoid it.
In general my though about tech trades is to make them as quick as possible (at least the first tech), since the AIs have a chance to forget per turn.

Here I wouldn't bother with sailing, at least not untill we have math, and we have a plan for how to trade for calendar.

I think I would want to go into buddism here, peter is a nice trading partner which I would like to get as a friend sooner than later. The fact that it can cool of monty abit is a nice bonus, he cares alot of religion, and he has the holy city so he will get very happy.

Pacal and Augustus already have worst enemies.

Alfa I would trade away asap, to get at least something out from it.
I think it's perfecly safe to just sit on aestethics for now, I don't think pacal will trade it away if only 2 of you know it.
Here I would like to know: The "known_tech%" which mansa has 0% and peter 10% on, does that apply in AI to AI trades as well? I have the feeling that it does, but I don't know.
My policy is to trade first with the guys who are likely to sit tight on a tech that fewer knows for a long time.
Peter is NOT that kind of guy, if anyone else knows it he will trade it away.

I think I would trade Alfa for IW and AH, either with one if thats possible, or split it up and do the alfa<-> AH trade with augustus. Buddism will please monty enough.

Regarding ivory (or any other resource for that matter)
Try to get the trade the turn before you have utility of the resource.
Such as... Trade for gold the turn before you have meditation, because when you can build Shadawgone Playa the price of gold will rise.
Likewise with Ivory. Trade it the turn before you get construction so that you have it for at least 10 turns.

 

[Oblivionyx]

How do you guys know when an AI is teching something without espionage?

 

[Major Tom]

Haven't analyzed situation but like to throw into the equation to start a world war so they start to hate eachother. These guys can be bribed (Peter is my favorite war buddy and gets friendly when CS/bureaucracy is online). Bribes are cheaper if you start war first.

 

[Anysense]

I'd probably go Drama->bulb Philosophy, one of the standard moves when you struggle to keep up with deity AI's in tech. AI tends to ignore both techs for quite a while, so they are a relatively safe bid when you need a monopoly tech to trade for something else.

Not sure about construction war, probably too late. If that was your plan, then staying at 4 cities and teching straight towards Construction (possible Math bulb) would be more sensible.

I'd try to get Math for Aesthetics, then give Aesth to Peter and trade Math to Monty.

How do you guys know when an AI is teching something without espionage?

Normally, AI will give you for a tech about 80% of its value, if AI in question offers you less than that, it means that it has partly researched that tech.

 

[sampsa]

To me, Pacal is the obvious first target, since he has no friends. Low buildunitprob, too. You seem to lack forest, but have a lot of green land so it makes sense to tech a bit deeper into the tech tree before attacking. Oromo+cannon/treb?

 

[krikav]

Oromo are a pretty nice UU, as are almost all UUs with promotions that carry over when they are upgraded.

 

[ArchGhost]

How do you guys know when an AI is teching something without espionage?

Anysense touched on it. I didn't even know the AI traded partial values of techs for a long time, thought they did the whole bulk or not.

Specifically, offer the tech to the AI in the trade window. The value of their counter offer, roughly in total beakers, allows you to deduce if they have progress in your tech, less a small devaluation (AI won't trade fair, it's like -20-25% or something on high difficulties). If I put up Alpha (507 beakers according to the tech tree) and Monty only offers me Mysticism (84 beakers) and nothing more, Monty is progressing Alpha since he should offer me something like 400 beakers worth of tech.

You can also just quickly compare by shopping around with other AIs and deduce that way by comparing their offers, since they should have similar techs to offer when they are ahead of you.


Thanks for the responses and insights all.

Spoiler quote trees :

Here I would like to know: The "known_tech%" which mansa has 0% and peter 10% on, does that apply in AI to AI trades as well? I have the feeling that it does, but I don't know.

I know the civ illustrated guides proclaims it as regarding human> Ai trades, but it seems to hold up in some regard (perhaps different thresholds?) For instance you can bet your bottom dollar Mansa will trade away (even give away) tech to anybody not his WE while Toku hordes unless he likes somebody or everyone else has it already, the reason for his infamous backwardsness.

I feel that their attitudes probably play a bigger role for the in-betweeners though if I had to guess. AIs that are happy with each other have almost no restrictions. Militant AIs still hold tightly onto war tech except among friends, etc.

I think I would trade Alfa for IW and AH, either with one if thats possible, or split it up and do the alfa<-> AH trade with augustus. Buddism will please monty enough.

Was leaning on just doing the trade with AC anyway if I remember my mindset correctly, but you bring up a good point if I plan to snub Pacal and adopt Buddhism, it keeps Monty happy(-er).
Also at least I'm not a land target with Monty and someone else surely is. Jewish bloc seems less dangerous (as much as that holds on Deity) than pissing off Peter right on my border instead.

Regarding ivory (or any other resource for that matter)
Try to get the trade the turn before you have utility of the resource.
Such as... Trade for gold the turn before you have meditation, because when you can build Shadawgone Playa the price of gold will rise.
Likewise with Ivory. Trade it the turn before you get construction so that you have it for at least 10 turns.

Good tip, thanks! hadn't thought about the essentially enforced window. Mostly worried that they would trade theirs away, but I go quick like (even Math bulb fast?) to Construction, this could be a solution. I seem to be branching away from fast Const as Anysense pointed out.

I'd probably go Drama->bulb Philosophy, one of the standard moves when you struggle to keep up with deity AI's in tech. AI tends to ignore both techs for quite a while, so they are a relatively safe bid when you need a monopoly tech to trade for something else.

Not sure about construction war, probably too late. If that was your plan, then staying at 4 cities and teching straight towards Construction (possible Math bulb) would be more sensible.

I'd try to get Math for Aesthetics, then give Aesth to Peter and trade Math to Monty.

Good idea about Philo, it's great trade bait. And thanks for the insight, I'm totally blind to timings/size and stuff necessary on Deity. As I said, training wheels for me. Oromos could see some action as Sampsa suggests? I've done Musket+Cannon before with great effect. Could go earlier though, I can build maces with bronze.

To me, Pacal is the obvious first target, since he has no friends. Low buildunitprob, too. You seem to lack forest, but have a lot of green land so it makes sense to tech a bit deeper into the tech tree before attacking. Oromo+cannon/treb?

Yeah, I slept on it and I agree with you 100%. Pacal is just asking for it isolating himself, it opens him up to separation from Peter and Monty, who would otherwise like him (peaceweights).

Chops are important for early pushes and I don't have them, but is it a common thing to sit and tech on greenland til later for Deity instead of whipping? I was planning to academy here which rules out the math bulb anyway right? I plan at least one more helper city here


Though that could just be dead weight.



Clearly I don't pay enough attention to Lain when I watch, as I can't recall that whole area between Catapults <> Cannons/Cuirs very well in terms of timings. In any case I think you're probably right, as I think at least Maces if not Oromo are gonna be enough given my Ivory questionability. I've seen how that can bite one in Lain's Pacal game and the only reason I was worried about it.

Thanks again.