Quo's Combined Tweaks v7.0.19 BETA

[isau]

Just one quick question re: sphinx. In the description, it says it provides faith and culture to surrounding desert tiles; does that apply to flood plains or oases as well? But not grassland/plains/etc.?

Looks fun. Will try it tomorrow.

On the technical side, it is set up as an ability assigned to Egypt (and America, since they can build "fake Sphinxes" after their first movie studio.) It scans each tile and determines whether it meets two criteria:

• Is this a desert or desert hill tile?
• Is it within 1 hex of a Sphinx?

If so, it gets the bonus. It doesn't look into what else is on the tile. Because the ability is coded this way, it doesn't stack with itself. It works more like the river bonus for Commercial Hubs (+2 Gold if at least one tile is a river).

One other thought, re: aqueducts. I like any change that brings regional effects, it adds another layer of strategy to the game. However, if they still provide a Great Engineer point, it will still be tempting to build one in every city where it is possible, especially since they don't count against the district cap. I was thinking about this the other day; let Rome have that particular bonus with the Bath, but dropping it for everyone else would let the Bath feel more unique.

Another option would be what CrazyScot did in his mod--make aqueducts supply extra food to every tile in a 2-tile radius; that seemed a bit overpowered to me, but a one tile radius isn't completely crazy.

I hear what you're saying about Engineers. Thing is tho, I don't think +1 Great Engineer point is strong enough to build them everywhere. Especially since you can't build them everywhere. They're one of the most restricted districts in the game. That said I'm willing to think about it. If it's something you feel strongly about feel free to rebut.

 

[Guynemer]

Nah, I don't feel too strongly about it; I just love getting as many great people as possible, so I try to squeeze in an aqueduct in every single city I can for that free GE point. Usually adds up to +6 or 7 GE points per turn, which is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[Guynemer]

Hello! Does this mod conflict with JFD's Rule & Faith?

Almost certainly. Both modify governments and policies.

 

[isau]

I have a balance question for you folks. Should the bonuses from Great General and Admirals apply retro-actively the way the unit building policies now do, or would this be overpowered? I feel like I still haven't quite come to grips on how these units function in typical games. I also know PVP is very different from single player in this regard.

I haven't looked at the great people code at all to see how difficult making it retroactive would be. I do know one frustration I've had with Great Generals/Admirals is how quickly they disappear.


Oh yeah, BTW, the Wonder building policies are now retroactive in the latest beta patch. I think I forgot to include that in the write up.

 

[Guynemer]

I don't think it works very well for generals and admirals. Let them be of their era; it encourages players to go for them in multiple eras, as well as encouraging players to upgrade their units.

 

[Setis]

Egypt might be a little ridiculous now. I just won a culture victory....on turn 96 (founding first relgion via Stonehenge and taking the triple faith/tourism for relics belief). +40% ancient/classic wonders pantheon as well. I was cranking out wonders in 4-8 turns.

 

[isau]

Egypt might be a little ridiculous now. I just won a culture victory....on turn 96 (founding first relgion via Stonehenge and taking the triple faith/tourism for relics belief). +40% ancient/classic wonders pantheon as well. I was cranking out wonders in 4-8 turns.

Yeah I did some testing and realized I made some ridiculous errors in how I implemented her bonus to wonders and districts. What's happening is you're actually getting a 20% bonus to building wonders for each type of district that exists in the game, including the unique districts. So basically, its about 20 times stronger than it should be. On top of that, it seems the built in Requirement that checks to see if a wonder exists in a city activates if you are even in the process of constructing a wonder. I'll be fixing that all hopefully by this afternoon.

Meanwhile congrats on the turn 98 culture victory.

 

[isau]

isau updated Quo's Combined Tweaks with a new update entry:

Quo Combined Tweaks v3.11.4 BETA

This just a minor patch that fixes some bugs and slightly rebalances the recently released new Egypt.

• Fixed a bug with Egypt's new Iteru ability that caused the bonus to building wonders in cities that already have a wonder to be much higher than the intended 20%.
• Fixed a bug that caused Egypt's new Iteru ability to trigger its production bonus when you begin construction on a wonder, rather than when you finish.
• The +1 Faith +1 Culture radial bonus from Sphinxes that...

Read the rest of this update entry...

 

[Guynemer]

I haven't played the new build yet, but as to whether or not the ability is overpowered:

I have won a turn 100 culture victory before, in the vanilla game, with China. It involved something of a perfect storm--popping a relic in the first goody hut, meeting every other civ in the first ~30 turns, having the civ that gets a bonus towards early wonders... the culture victory was won with a grand total of ten visitors.

This new Egypt replicates that perfect storm to a certain extent. It is limited by the desert bias, of course, and it would take Cleo a little while to get up to the speed that China gets from turn 1. It might be just a bit more powerful than it needs to be; maybe just one extra slot for wonders, or just a 10% bonus towards future wonders/districts.

But, again, I haven't played it yet; it may feel very well balanced once I try it later tonight.

 

[isau]

I haven't played the new build yet, but as to whether or not the ability is overpowered:

I have won a turn 100 culture victory before, in the vanilla game, with China. It involved something of a perfect storm--popping a relic in the first goody hut, meeting every other civ in the first ~30 turns, having the civ that gets a bonus towards early wonders... the culture victory was won with a grand total of ten visitors.

This new Egypt replicates that perfect storm to a certain extent. It is limited by the desert bias, of course, and it would take Cleo a little while to get up to the speed that China gets from turn 1. It might be just a bit more powerful than it needs to be; maybe just one extra slot for wonders, or just a 10% bonus towards future wonders/districts.

But, again, I haven't played it yet; it may feel very well balanced once I try it later tonight.

Ok I think you're convincing me the relic ability needs a delay mechanism. I'm not too worried about the bonus to building additional wonders and districts because Cleo has that in the Vanilla game to start with (her old Iteru ability, which was a 15% bonus and applies even to the earliest wonders). I do most of my testing on Emperor, and playing there even with the huge (broken) bonuses in play I still lost out on a lot of the early wonders. But players on lower difficulties might find it too easy. And I can see how the "perfect storm" you describe could result in overwhelming other civs with tourism before they can mount a defense.

 

[Guynemer]

Especially if one chooses the Reliquaries belief, it could be an issue.

 

[Setis]

The game I mentioned was played on Emperor, and yes I took the Reliquaries bonus, which I've never done before because relics seem so difficult to get for me (aside from maybe one in a lucky goody hut).

Also, I've ended up turning off the hardcore mod, as it seems to handicap the AI more than it does me. I'll be at like turn 150 with lots of science, and the AI is producing maybe 20 if it's lucky. It doesn't seem to realize it should be prioritizing campuses more.

 

[isau]

The game I mentioned was played on Emperor, and yes I took the Reliquaries bonus, which I've never done before because relics seem so difficult to get for me (aside from maybe one in a lucky goody hut).

Also, I've ended up turning off the hardcore mod, as it seems to handicap the AI more than it does me. I'll be at like turn 150 with lots of science, and the AI is producing maybe 20 if it's lucky. It doesn't seem to realize it should be prioritizing campuses more.

AIs with hardcore mode turned on actually get bonus science and culture per district they build, even if they don't build campuses or theaters, to compensate for their erratic behavior. It's interesting that the ones in your games don't seem to be performing well. In my games the AIs I'm up against are pretty competitive and usually there's at least one who gives me major issues. Less so since I tuned down their free science bonus a little. Recently China gave me a major scare by turning up with Musketmen when I was very far behind. But its also possible (even likely) I'm not as good a player as many of you are.

 

[isau]

Ok guys the next big balance question: what should happen to the "bonus to building Settlers" policy cards. The main culprit is the one that shows up at Early Empire, "+50% production toward Settlers." IMO it unbalances the game in an unfun way by creating a time period in the game when you simply rush a ton of Settlers. It's partly because of how early this card appears, at a time when you likely have only 1 or 2 slots for economic/wildcard policies.

Options on how to approach it:

• Leave it alone (not my preferred option TBH).
• Lower the bonus to 30%, same as he recently changed early unit construction cards.
• Eliminate the card (I'd prefer not to do this).
• Change what the card does in some way. I don't have specific ideas yet. Note that there is already a card that gives Settlers the ability to ignore rivers and zone of control (Survey card) and a government that gives them +2 movement, and I'd like to leave those as is.

Also up for review: the new Oligarchy government that gives you free Battering Rams when you complete an Encampment. I am still not sure it is balanced correctly. The main issue is that it rewards aggressive players for delaying Encampments. I'm wondering if there's a better bonus structure. Current options are:

• Leave as is.
• Change to a bonus to building Support units.
• Change to a direct bonus (e.g. " +5 versus city centers").
• Change to a troop movement bonus (e.g. "+1 troop movement in unowned territory").
• Change to a bonus to great generals.
• Have it automatically grant Iron and Horses.
• Have it allow units to counteract normal weaknesses (e.g. Horses no longer vulnerable to Anti-Cavalry. Not sure if this is overpowered.
• Eliminate bonus range for early siege units and make it the bonus this government provides instead.
• Other options?

I'd prefer to avoid something generic like "+2 Great General points per turn." That's easy to do but IMO sort of dull. I like most of the other new Government bonuses so far.

I welcome your thoughts (also thoughts on the new Egypt/France/India and aqueduct stuff in the most recent beta patches.)

 

[Guynemer]

Per: the settler card, reducing it to 30% seems perfectly reasonable; for Oligarchy, maybe a reduction in unit upkeep?

 

[clack]

Options on how to approach it:

• Leave it alone (not my preferred option TBH).
• Lower the bonus to 30%, same as he recently changed early unit construction cards.
• Eliminate the card (I'd prefer not to do this).
• Change what the card does in some way. I don't have specific ideas yet. Note that there is already a card that gives Settlers the ability to ignore rivers and zone of control (Survey card) and a government that gives them +2 movement, and I'd like to leave those as is.

I do not think it's necessary to change this card, as the earlier the spam of settlers begins, the easier it will be to play in the future. Do not forget about the long construction of the districts. And besides, the cards are not very large, so that by the middle of the game there is no place for the founding of cities anymore.
A much bigger problem is that subsequent late maps associated with the settlers are simply not relevant. A map with a cheap purchase of plots and the production of settlers is useless at the time it comes. Is it possible to add another bonus to this card "based cities get +2 residents"?

And the second. Select the "Have it automatically grant Iron and Horses." Will AI help you play better? It will be useful for AI, when it does not have these resources on its territory.

 

[Setis]

Personally I think the +2 settler movement bonus is kind of pointless, as it's typically very dangerous to send out settlers unescorted, and they're obviously bound to the speed of their escort. I find settler build times to become barely tolerable with the +50% card (unless you're spamming them all from your capital, which has had the longest time to grow). Not sure what to do with it myself.

I agree, I noticed the free ram bonus had me delaying encampments in a recent game where I decided to go balls-out warmonger with Japan. There aren't really a lot of early game support units, so a bonus to building them feels like a waste. Bonus movement in unowned territory actually sounds like it might be handy for those times when you want to kick someone in the teeth who is just a bit out of convenient reach.

 

[isau]

Personally I think the +2 settler movement bonus is kind of pointless, as it's typically very dangerous to send out settlers unescorted, and they're obviously bound to the speed of their escort. I find settler build times to become barely tolerable with the +50% card (unless you're spamming them all from your capital, which has had the longest time to grow). Not sure what to do with it myself.

I agree, I noticed the free ram bonus had me delaying encampments in a recent game where I decided to go balls-out warmonger with Japan. There aren't really a lot of early game support units, so a bonus to building them feels like a waste. Bonus movement in unowned territory actually sounds like it might be handy for those times when you want to kick someone in the teeth who is just a bit out of convenient reach.

Thanks for the feedback. Keep in mind that in this mod, the Settler unit really isn't in much danger. If it gets caught by an enemy it simply gets teleported back to the nearest city, the same as a great person. This is to prevent players from easy exploiting AI Settlers. It was a choice between that or have the Settlers convert to Builders when captured. I chose the teleport option to keep AIs from getting destroyed by Barbarian invasions. That being the context, the +2 movement I think is highly useful both in terms of getting a Settler somewhere fast and for racing back out there if caught. I hear your point about protective units not being able to move as fast though.

I'll look into whether it is possible to add a movement bonus for units in unowned territory. The movement bonus part is (relatively) easy. I am not sure yet what limitations I can put on it.

 

[Setis]

Oh, it never even occurred to me that the teleporting settler when captured worked for the player too, lol.

 

[isau]

Oh, it never even occurred to me that the teleporting settler when captured worked for the player too, lol.

Yes that may be partly my fault. It's there in the long writeup in the main page, but it might be helpful if I added some text about it somewhere actually in game. The main challenge with Settlers is that since you can build them from Turn 1, there really aren't many chances to add text to the screen to tell players how they've been updated. The "teleport on capture" flag is an aspect of the Settler unit itself rather than a special ability available only to AIs, so players can build Settlers with relatively little risk.

If it's something that bothers a lot of players I can consider adding that to the list of options in the MyOptions file. I can see how at least maybe PVP players might find it too easy to exploit. It's really there to prevent human players from easily exploiting AIs, particularly in the first 50 turns (same reason high difficulty AIs no longer get a free Settler, so AI doesn't plant an easily capturable city on Turn 3 or 4.)