RA Free Strategy: Challenge #1

[ifinnem]

Thanks for posting Hpuk

Nice work. Likely an unusual civ choice for sure but still a better time than the estimates!

This makes me really question the conventional wisdom than more cities = more GS (given that you produced more than the babylon puppet game above despite their UA)
Gonna run some numbers quickly to see if this is indeed worth probing...

Maybe ashye can tell us how many cities he had producing GS as well (or whether most stayed as puppets)

EDIT: Posted in the discussion forum regarding the GS vs # cities analysis

 

[qalsip1977]

What luck only having 1 civ on your landmass in a continents game! I'm going to be trying this a few more times and I'll take more notes this time

 

[Buccaneer]

wrong thread

 

[Attaturk]

I am not sure that this counts as space victory.

I was playing standard Keshik domination victory that I would have won around turn 199, but instead I left one civ untouched and finished the space race.

I was lucky (or not) of having a large continent with 5 civs, remaining 2 civs had their own continents.

 

[ifinnem]

I am not sure that this counts as space victory.

I was playing standard Keshik domination victory that I would have won around turn 199, but instead I left one civ untouched and finished the space race.

I was lucky (or not) of having a large continent with 5 civs, remaining 2 civs had their own continents.

Nice work. Did you use a bunch of GS?
Can you share some details on bpt at say 100 and 200 turn marks?

Update on my effort shortly

 

[ifinnem]

At 200 turns my bpt is pretty solid but the more I look at the remaining techs the more I realize how ridiculous the tech costs are for raw approach...

Gonna need some greater minds than mine to prove what kind of pace is realistic without using GS. Anyway action to date and current state of affairs for me as follows:

1) Started by establishing a core 4 cities with growth potential and got the scientists running to crank up the bpt. SP path was Liberalism, parts of Tradition, Rationalism. Next SP will be Sovereignty or Order. Wonders built GL, HS, PT, ND and hopefully the Taj shortly.

2) Then did some conquering but this started only in turn 140s so this might be the area for improvement. Took down Washington who had TGW and now Arabia (who is being painful and refusing to gift any cities for peace despite getting soundly trounced) He has 1 decent one left plus 1 tundra and 2 island ones. Good news is 4-5 of my puppets came with Unis. Could go after Rome next but gonna run into happy issues that way probably.
Core cities have PS and either working on or done with Factories.

3) By the numbers
I think around 15 cities, bpt at turn 200 of 403 (440 by T212) with 19 techs to go to finish Nanotech. Have 6 GS stored (as by product of running scientists for rather than focusing on GPP). Problem is once techs get to 5-10k it just seems unrealistic to hard tech them at any decent rate. Gonna project my rough finish date and might report back before continuing...

 

[ifinnem]

Gonna project my rough finish date and might report back before continuing...

Ok so I realize I made a glaring error in storing my GS - if I'm really going the hard tech route I should have been settling them. DOH! So used to hoarding them for the end game

Given this I am going to settle them now and at least provide a stake in the ground for a non bulbing game. (not no GS just no bulbing - ok so I bulbed the GS from PT but that sorta doesn't count right)
Also I'm gonna cheat slightly by bulbing twice to get plastics and settling everything else. Just to crank that bpt number up there. (Since its of the beeline path I figure its ok)

I think this will allow me to finish in the 325 turn range... Which means a good player can do a lot better.

EDIT: I guess this is why you play the game instead of totally theorizing - I think there is some real potential for the hard teching approach -up to 1100 bpt at T257 and about to start Apollo.

Side note: I think for the next challenge I might set the stipulation as no RA, must use GS on the turn its produced (so can still bulb but no hoard for endgame). That seems like the most balanced approach since it means you will still need some serious bpt to crank through the later techs with only a few bulbs there. Thoughts?

 

[MadDjinn]

Side note: I think for the next challenge I might set the stipulation as no RA, must use GS on the turn its produced (so can still bulb but no hoard for endgame). That seems like the most balanced approach since it means you will still need some serious bpt to crank through the later techs with only a few bulbs there. Thoughts?

that's not that useful of a rule.

what if you create them in 8 cities, but put up academies in only one? The have to travel.

 

[ifinnem]

that's not that useful of a rule.

what if you create them in 8 cities, but put up academies in only one? The have to travel.

Yeah I meant to clarify that - as in if you plan to bulb you must use immediately otherwise you can take as many turns as you need to get to the settling spot (but cant change your mind and then bulb after moving)

 

[ifinnem]

DONE! T295 for a hard tech Immortal Space Win...

Many many turns to be shaved off this so some experts could do impressive times...

I think there is so much to be understood about cranking bpt - I really could have done so much better in managing things but its all so foreign! To illustrate the possibilities just before assembling the last part I put all my cities back to max science and got up to 1500+ bpt.

Will write more tomorrow but in summary
Used Siam and my only bulbs were
Astro from PT GS (half out of habit)
2 bulb to get to Plastics for the Research Labs (not even on the space tech path)

Goodnight all

EDIT: Some more details on the game

I chose Siam because I figured there UA, UB and UU could all be very helpful for this type of approach

• UA - Extra food for growth and culture for getting all the tech boosting SPs
• UB - Legalism for getting Unis up in core cities quick
• UU - Mid game conquering to get the wide puppet empire

Basic plan was to establish the tall core and then conquer. I don't think I did either of these things as quickly as better players could - Legalism on T96 and conquering of Washington + Harun from ~T140 to ~T210 altho I didn't push hard after breaking Harun's back as was managing the happy

Science rates looked like this

• T100 - only ~50 per turn but up to 100+ shortly afterwards
• T200 - 403 per turn
• T295 - 1500+ per turn

In total produced 10 GS + 1 from PT (3 bulbs as per above)

So certainly the early game was nothing innovative and went the standard HS + Education + Liberty beeline. However I think the mid to late game was a little more interesting with the hard teching approach
Side note: HS and PT really are too powerful as you pretty much feel they are the optimal path in most strategies (we all knew this already of course)

Key wonders were
GL
HS
ND
PT
Eiffel

SPs
Liberty
Tradition (partial)
Rationalism
Order through to Planned Economy plus 1 more right at the end

Ways this could have been improved

1. Start settling GS immediately don't wait till turn 212!
2. Better war tactics - not my strong suit
3. More effective management in last ~100 turns or so - I didn't realize the value of other specialists (ie non scientists) in rate one you have the Secularism + multipliers
4. Also more effectively managing growth vs all out science for core cities based on likely finish time (ie when to stop growing)
5. Acquiring more maritime CS, especially later to get puppets to grow once happy issues solved with Eiffel (or earlier if you get FP)
6. Find a way to get Patronage as well as the other SPs
7. Have map that allows for Observatories in your core
8. etc

Gonna post in the discussion thread for some of my learnings about non RA (non bulbing) play

A few screenies cos a picture is worth...
NC city at the end - 490+ ! (excl 15% from sovereignty)

Spoiler :

Core lands with ex Arabia

Spoiler :

City output list

Spoiler :

SPs taken

Spoiler :

 

[RD-BH]

Sadly, my first attempt met failure.

Playing Persia, I wrested my continent from Napoleon, Washington, and Hiawatha.
With resources and CSs in hand, I was looking for a launch ~275t.
Then, I met the other continent ...
... I should have thought ahead better.
... It was painted Arabian green and the streets were paved with gold.
... al-Rashid immediately bought all my CSs
... reducing himself to near poverty with only 75k left in change
... 50 turns later,
... ... he voted himself leader of the "free" world
... apparently puppets don't build much happy.

:note to self
... don't randomize opponents

 

[ifinnem]

Edited my post above (#30) to add more details on my effort

 

[qalsip1977]

I chose Siam because I figured there UA, UB and UU could all be very helpful for this type of approach

• UA - Extra food for growth and culture for getting all the tech boosting SPs
• UB - Legalism for getting Unis up in core cities quick
• UU - Mid game conquering to get the wide puppet empire

Given your Civ choice and UA...I'm really surprised you didn't utilize Patronage (specifically Scholasticism)! I'll admit I'm not a number cruncher so I don't have any data to back this up. I generally play by my gut...

Is focusing on Liberty to get the free GP at the end really worth it over other routes you might take when playing a non-RA game? I'd ask the same question of PT...if you aren't signing RAs is it even worth building (other than for the GS)?

I'd like to see the tactics that nets the fastest science win. This is definitely an interesting scenario!!

 

[ifinnem]

Given your Civ choice and UA...I'm really surprised you didn't utilize Patronage (specifically Scholasticism)! I'll admit I'm not a number cruncher so I don't have any data to back this up. I generally play by my gut...

Is focusing on Liberty to get the free GP at the end really worth it over other routes you might take when playing a non-RA game? I'd ask the same question of PT...if you aren't signing RAs is it even worth building (other than for the GS)?

I'd like to see the tactics that nets the fastest science win. This is definitely an interesting scenario!!

Good push - since the key to the legalism gambit is getting cities up early the free settler and worker make a big difference. From their the free GP is only a few SPs away but yeah its worth considering alternatives. Also since you need Education for the Unis and want ND, the PT for its free GS and 2 GS GPPs seems too good pass up and deny the AIs at the point

I'd need to try scholastiscm early again - I think on Immortal with the new patch its not all that helpful early with the NC nerf but worth checking

EDIT: I guess you could compare the value of Scholasticsm vs the last 3 liberty SPs after free worker and settler since that would could be a clear alternative

 

[Attaturk]

Nice work. Did you use a bunch of GS?
Can you share some details on bpt at say 100 and 200 turn marks?

I was saving all GS until the end. I built only one city. Luckily there were 4 horses nearby. Other 4 I bought from kind neighbours

Pot->Wri->Phi -> (GL) -> CS -> ... -> Chivalry -> Edu

Turn 100: Karakorum 12, Education in 5 turns

7 keshiks and 1 horseman
Puppet Rome and Antium. At peace with Rome
War with Harald
56 bpt

Turn 201: 765 bpt. Six best cities doing research. The rest are puppets
Only one empire left untouched
Researching plastics
7 scientists waiting to be bulbed
Scientific Revolution in 2 turns
Liberty has 2 more policies to go

 

[Tabarnak]

Turn 101 :

I give it a go with Babylon, a civ that i never truly played until now. I pushed for a low sea level game with at least 3 neighbors that i got after 5-6 rerolls. I got a nice calendar luxs start.

My main strategy for first 100 turns :

-Acquiring 4 cities as fast as possible
-Buying workers when i can or i need to
-Starting the GL after 4 cities settled and build libraries then start NC
-keep sufficient forces to repeal first threats

Results :

4 cities by turn 35
4 workers by turn 35
GL turn 55
NC turn 80

I got education by turn 76, bought 3 unis in 3 cities. 90 by turn 80. 4 gs so far, settled the first one in cap, bulbed astro at turn 91 and keeping the others.

Suleiman, my closest neighbor, is warring everyone on the continent but Ghandi and Darius are on my side. I made peace 2 times after repealing 2 attacks, then i upgraded some swords to LS and i attacked him around turn 95. Unfortunately, a horseman killed one. I will wait for crossbowmen instead(only 6 turns left).

I'm currently building ND in 2nd city and HS in capital. I'm allied with 2 CS but damn Stockholm is too lazy to expand to whales. Why is that happen sometimes? this is lame.

Spoiler :

Looks like America and France are warring on the other side.

Spoiler :

Tech tree

Spoiler :

My next moves will be conquer Suly's cities(they are riversided and have some luxs) then sit down and work science and population.

(EDIT)

Turn 150 :

I got through Suleiman pretty easily and let him 1 city left. Darius captured Sidon, my allied cs. I declared war to him some turns later and liberated Sidon. Meanwhile, i built gardens, markets, workshops and some useful stuff everywhere and built Ironworks in capital. At turn 150, i used another GS for Scientific Method. Great, i have a 7 coal tile in my capital. I bought 4 public schools and running even more scientists. Capital will soon generate over 30 GS points per turn. From the screenshot below, i'm now at 241 bpt.

Spoiler :

I finished Liberty and picked 1 policy in freedom and 1 in patronnage tree(allied 4 cs so far).

Tech tree :

Spoiler :

 

[ifinnem]

@Tabarnak - Wow you really have to teach me how to get the cities out so quick - a few tips?

I find the GL has been going in the 30s and 40s in my game but maybe I am not handpicking the AIs well enough - who are the early wonder hogs to avoid?

In hindsight for my effort I could have used the FP - you planning to go after that or how deal with happy in a large empire?

Last question - SP path from here?

 

[ifinnem]

I'd need to try scholastiscm early again - I think on Immortal with the new patch its not all that helpful early with the NC nerf but worth checking

EDIT: I guess you could compare the value of Scholasticsm vs the last 3 liberty SPs after free worker and settler since that would could be a clear alternative

Did some tests by the way with the following results
1 CS ally at size 10 provided 4.5
2x allies of size 10 provided 9
When 1 ally grew to size 11 it add 0.37

Changing from medieval to renaissance era had no effect
This doesn't seem like a strong policy to go after early as a result, e.g. the +2 per specialist in Rationalism would given more of a boost in a single city of yours than adding a scholasticism CS ally as well as being on the path to FT...

As for the comparison with Liberty I need to give that some more thought
Opinions?

 

[chazzycat]

@Tabarnak - Would you mind sharing your starting build order? 4 cites/workers by turn 35 is pretty impressive (to me at least)

damn Stockholm is too lazy to expand to whales. Why is that happen sometimes? this is lame.

So annoying.

 

[Tabarnak]

@Tabarnak - Would you mind sharing your starting build order? 4 cites/workers by turn 35 is pretty impressive (to me at least)

Capital started with : Scout, monument

I got lucky and found 2 ruins and 1 ruin! When i reached 4 , i started 2 settlers back to back. Unlocked the free settler from Liberty first, then free worker around turn 35.

Got enough for a worker around turn 23(first one) thanks to 2 open borders for 100 . I stole one from a cs at the same time(took 4-5 turns to bring him). With the first one i improved a sugar and sold it around turn 28 for another worker. The 2nd worker improved another lux that i sold immediately again for another worker around turn 35.

I stayed at -9 for 9-10 of turns then started to grow again. This is pretty exceptionnal i think. Usually 4 cities/4 workers by turn 45 is still good.