Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Spoonwood, Dec 5, 2008.
Happy birthday to Andronicus junior!
No beer, then.
Just drugs, then.
Not sure if 'Fosters' does weed in a six-pack.
Sparkling grape juice anyone?
I know... you'd prefer SPAM.
Actually, the legal drinking age is 18 here so ...
He's sitting beside me playing warcraft and says Thks.
Unfortunately I have to go to work now so no C3C
Arrgh, internet problems ... I lost my post ... I'll try again, grr
There's a few things I'm not sure on and a few things I'd like to change, so I'll run this by you guys for comment and play tomorrow morning (about 20 hours time)
Trade - I'd like IW ASAP to help with city planning
See trade we can do with Ottomen below.
Athens MM. Current settler requires 13 shields, doing 8spt which becomes 9 as mine completes on IT. Add 2 from forest on growth and we are 2 shields short on completing this turn. In a SP game I wouldnt hesitate to disband the warrior. Sparta is the town limiting happies, so no change to lux slider on losing Athen's mp. Any objections?
Exploration - we have a curragh going anti clockwise, I suggest another going clockwise. Switch Thermopolae to curragh. We need more contacts - it appears none of our contacts has met France since none knew Alpha, surprising really. Also no sign of Russian scout. I note an island to our east - although the settings were pangea, we may have several continents (CA2 confirms we are of course on alpha continent).
Workers - we need more. Sparta to become worker factory. Requires we settle brown dot (next turn), chop game (which can hurry another setter - ? green dot), then can give 1 mBG to Athens (which in turn gives one to Thermopolae improving Thermopolae's production). At size 4 works roaded game, irr cow and 2 mBGs for 5fpt, 5spt (no 2shield tile would be avail on growth for 4spt to work).
I would prefer settler NE of Athens to have settled red dot last turn, too late to turn back, so move to blue dot.
Brown dot settler arrives next turn to bring game into Sparta's use.
I dont favour the whales town (white dot) any time soon. It wont get the whales until after expansion and will only have forests to work initially. Once we have the workers to spare to chop and MM for harbour its a goer. The settler 1NE of Thermopolae can therefore either settle purple dot - arrives next turn (brings horses into our territory) or hike out towards orange and black (I suggest purple dot).
Next settler out of Athens should go to red dot IMO, then next Spartan settler to yellow dot.
After that, do we go west or east of both. Pink and teal will be vulnerable once we attack Babylon, but the FPs provide plenty of food. We still lack knowledge of the terrain around the river with black and orange on it. Iron may help decide?
I see spices to the west and dyes to the east, but I dont imagine we could beat the AI to either. The spices will be claimed by Babs on expansion, both Babs and Sumerians are not far from the dyes.
Everything sounds very good
Athens build 4turn warrior/settler, Sparta 2 turn workers. Other towns should build barracks and then units. Thermopylae could switch to barracks after curragh, Corinth immeadiatelly as FP can wait a bit. You know a short war with 10-15 archers could make a good dent on Babs if we can get this force relatively quickly.
I'd prefer horsemen
Just noticed Persia amd Babs have writing - not good
From Spoonwood's log that was 4 turns ago. I expect both Babs and Persia will research 2 techs before we complete phil. MM highly likely to be one, lets hope phil isn't another. We need to squeeze all the beakers we can.
Me too, but archers cost less so we could gather a force faster here.
Not good, that's for sure. We might take extreme measures - extreme use of scientists. This will slow growth/production, but increase research dramatically.
The first curragh has literally done us nothing in terms of contacts. If we want a galley to plot a settler somewhere, how will we get the money to upgrade a currage and keep up/lead in tech with the age change overs, and still have a decent infrastucture (I don't mean temples, I mean libraries and markets)? Why do we want another one? At best France will cheapen techs when we trade for them... *at best*. She probably won't have gpt until the very late ancient age, if even then. She's the only contact we don't have yet. I don't see any point to scouting the map thoroughly.
I don't understand the concern about iron. We wanted the Republic slingshot. Why empty our treasury and potentially slow down our research? We've already made it less probably that we'll get it by having France in the game. Why make it even less probable than that? We'll probably want that 20 extra gold at some time.
I seriously want us to at least consider another start. If we war with Babylon we won't have the ability to trade for any luxuries during that time, and what... we maybe have one down south by those hills? Playing with a start where I ended up in a northern corner somewhat like this today, even though I had a road to my neighbor I couldn't trade for luxuries until the high middle ages/late industrial ages. That might happen here also as Babylon lies up near the marshy/jungly equator. Few luxuries... if any... during a Babylonian war sounds like fairly slow growth to me. We also have no clue whatsoever if Babylon has the most research potential on this map. We want at least one of the very best trading partners we can find, if not two or three... even if we whack half of the other AIs and have 4 turn research in the industrial ages (don't count on this unless we get a ton of territory). If we take two of his cities *and* he's the best researcher, that sounds like lost turns for several techs we might have traded for earlier.
My 1220 AD space game has me lacking only Theory of Gravity and Magnetism at 10 AD. I know I entered the industrial ages about 10 turns later... if not 6 or 8 turns later. I think we need to move at least that fast, if not faster (I've had a faster tech pace on another Deity game, but it didn't turn out as well). I don't see that happening here.
I prefer 1 west, not south. I think I'd rather jam 5 closer into the coast for more sea/coastal squares. 10-15 archers and say 5 barracks puts us at 400-500 shields for the Babylon war (as an aside, I usually build The Great Library, which shouldn't need here with The Republic slingshot, but that sounds about even once you factor in the fact that the Great Library becomes a tourist attraction). In towns that produce libraries slower than the capital, and we still need plenty of workers. How many archers will we lose? 5 barracks eat up 5 gpt, and we'll lose some of those archers.. meaning wasted shields we could have put towards libraries and markets and maybe even a court in a 2nd ring city. I'd suspect we'd also want a wee little bit of defense to hold Eulbar and Akkad, so that's at least 40 more shields for two hoplites. Do we really want a GA *this* early when the AIs can really help push the tech pace until the end of the ancient ages? Once we pop the middle ages, the Babs probably will get pikes soon after that, as we need to get everyone's free techs on the table ASAP. If we could time an assault on Babylon on the turn after we have everyone pop the middle ages, it *might* work. But, that's no luxuries then with mid-sized towns and that's around 1000 BC, if not a little sooner. And would they have made for the best trading partner?
Methinks better maps exist. No one with Alphabet if we want the slingshot.
More contacts will open us better diplomatic and trading situation.
Scouting will reveal us more map: we will spot luxes and resources, will open sea trade route.
It's just 15 shields, it will benefit us much more.
we can borrow gold from AI's, no need to lower science slider
We need to settle near iron to be able build swordsmen.
As far as I see You are builder at heart. Let's try with us a bit different approach - militaristic approach! It will be a new experience for you!
Let's play 3 or 4 turnsets and see what happens.
I would not consider upgrading exploratory curraghs, rather disband at the other side of the world. I think contacts important as each trading partner is potentially valuable.
Knowing where iron is may decide us whether to settle to the west or to the east. Paying 1gpt for 20 turns (and getting 5g) wont break the bank.
If we dont get slingshot I agree we need another start. We may anyway, but not because we need war with Babylon, rather because of the lack of access to lux. If we get beat to philosophy it is because the AI has outresearched us because we required lux spending instead of science.
I dont follow what town you are referring to here. Is it brown dot on my dotmap?
If so, then I would suggest we need a town to get the game into play so Sparta becomes a 2 turn worker factory (brown dot does this, but moving the settler 1W does not). At present I rank that number 2 priority behind pushing science to max towards republic SS.
Even in science game, early military to get land is what I would expect to have a greater payback than infrastruture or wonders.
No to defence and therefore no to GA
Attack is the best form of defence.
How things will work out is uncertain.
If we get the slingshot, we should quickly get to middle ages. If we are at war with Babs at the age change we have to deal with 1 less scientific for gifting (may be problematic, maybe not if all 3 first tiers are covered by other civs). I expect to be able to trade with Babs in middle ages, although as the holder of a lot of fertile land near us with lots of luxes, the first war may not be the last.
I'm certain you are right that better maps exist, but we dont always know what lies ahead. Should we get phil first and get a GL, who knows? OTOH we may well find a wonderful map with lots of food and lux which hold far more promise. I'm for playing on to the slingshot at least and decide then.
Yes, the brown spot down on the southern coast. If we place it on the grassland we can use that forest out there, otherwise we have a tile not in anyone's city radius. I think putting a settler (that one will work) not on brown, but on the hill southeast/east of brown will also put the game into play for Sparta, right? Or did I misremember here?
I don't get this really. I can see later war as profitable, but with losses, the fact that the AIs *will* push the tech pace for us throughout the ancient age, and hopefully to the end of the high middle ages seems to imply we need all the cash we can get (loans can help here, provided we get our cash back via industrial age selling, where we'd probably stop the loans, I'd think). Putting shields into units that die and barracks that eat away at our treasury also seems inefficient. Unit support in The Republic comes out bad (I don't know how many games where workers alone have eaten away signficiantly at my treasury... even with Sumeria... but maybe I need to add in more and earlier), and I don't see time for a revolution to Monarchy and then to The Republic. On this map it looks like Sumeria might work out as our other neighbor. What if Babylon has the most research potential and Sumeria comes as the laggard?
Ignas mentioned swords. Might horseman work out as better even though weaker, since they'll retreat more often? Horseman might minimize losses and thus weariness potential. They also have a better upgrade, and we could try to get loans for this. Catapults would also work out well to minimize losses, but that's more shields (Maths should pop up soon enough... how soon, I do not know). Also, a war with Babylon will almost surely trigger their Golden Age if they get but a single bowmen victory (if they haven't had that happen already). Do we want that to happen, or does it work out better if we can luck out... they don't war early... and they build say The Museum of Mausollos and the Sistine Chapel?
No to defence means we will have losses. And then I'd expect a bowman to win. I don't like early war, but I can go with it. I *really* don't like the idea of warring inefficiently in a Republic where we'll get units attacked and we expect to lose a good bit of our units. We'd declare on turn 1 and take the two cities (given that we've got average to better luck). I don't know how many turns until they would acknowledge our envoy, but I'd expect to see some bowmen, some spears, probably some swords, and maybe even horseman sneak back up to us during this time. Even with not getting attacked by them, everything but the horses (which move fast) have a defense of two. And both those cities have rivers. Maybe I'm a pessimist that such a war will work out as planned, but maybe that's just this level.
Played to 1500BC - philosophy due in 4, will likely make it in 3
Switch Thermopolae to curragh, Corinth to rax
Trade Ottomen Alpha + 1gpt for IW + 5g
Trade Germany writing for HBR + 21g
Realise Athens needs to grow to get 4 turn warrior / settler factory, should help with commerce, so MM for settler in 2
Athens settler -> warrior
Germans commence Oracle
Science up to 80% and hire scientists (doesnt slow growth in Sparta)
Athens warrior -> warrior (can start 4 turn warrior / settelr cycle, but will do sev 2 turn warrior / worker cycles as we need more workers)
Settle Parsolos 1SE of brown dot (more sites on coast, still on hill, gets game into play) -> curragh, Delphi (blue dot) -> worker and Knossos (1SNE purple dot) -> worker
Power blackout - unable to reload 1700BC autosave (tile error message)
Replay from 1725BC autosave
Athens warrior -> worker
Settle Argos -> rax
Athens worker -> warrior
Sparta worker -> setter (using game forest chop)
Athens warrior -> worker
Thermop curragh -> granary (option for rax, but this will be 5fpt city)
Hire a bunch of scientists to get CoL in 1
CoL -> phil
Athens worker -> warrior (commencing 4 turn warrior / settler factory)
send curragh to explore eastern island as still no sign of France.
Athens warrior -> settler
All AI exc Sumeria have maths and poly, we are 6 turns from phil - delay trade as dont want AI swapping to phil yet
Sparta settler -> worker
Babs and Germans commence ToA
Babs and Sumeria now have maths, Sumeria backwards so trading opportunity
Trade Babs CoL for MM and all their gold (113g) - MM was their most expensive tech
Trade Sumeria writing + 23g for maths
Gift Sumeria 100g
Trade Sumeria MM for 123g
Gift Ottomen 100g
Trade Otto CoL + Math for Poly + 121g
Gift Germany 100g
Trade Germany maths for 152g
Gift Persia 100g
Trade Persia maths for 148g
We now have all known gold and 4/5 known AI are gracious towards us
scientists bring phil down to 4 turns
Athens settler -> warrior
Sumeria building SoZ
I leave Athens settler with movement to let next player decide its destination
Nice, let's hope we will get the slingshot.
We have 4 cows and a game, so it's 5 towns with 5 fpt when in Republic.
I don't know if we can get a settler out to the brown in time. I'd aim for the green/brown edge along the coast. The corner south of Mycenae looks good for some coastal culture. I don't care about brown or not. I think we can place a settler north of Akkad at some point. Nice job with the scientists in Sparta Andronicus. I don't know why I didn't think of that.
Spoonwood-in the hole
Andronicus-inciting propoganda against Hammurabi.
What's our Forbidden Palace plan?
I'm unlikely to be able to play this before Tuesday, possibly Wednesday, so maybe a swap with Ignas would be best, if he can take it.
I'm not sure about the FP; I don't see that we can spare a city to pre-build it yet. Is a MGL a possibility there? Or would we want to use it for an Army?
I'd think an MGL for the FP more useful in *this* game than an army.
Sorry, I'm going to need to be skipped this round; I'm inundated with work, and it's going to need a week or so to catch-up with.
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