Using combat as a comparison isn't the same since combat is why I'm playing the game I'm not saying I don't use slavery. I just don't run it the whole game like some here do. And I don't change on a whim, I plan them to minimize the losses like everyone does on civic changes. And I don't prepare for for the Aryans either even though there are many games where it happens and it isn't a game ender. (and I would like to keep that one event out of the discussion even though it seems impossible. It does seem to be the one event that everyone thinks is absurd) I've just been in so many MP games where the slave event has had impact that choosing not to use slaver all the time could be considered a strategic decision. I do wish it's occurrence was more consistent. And I appreciate that you note the facts and don't outright insult me. I would love to see a numbers analysis (i'm sure they are out there in older threads) on the benefits of whipping later in the game when all your cities are large enough to produce the units in less than three turns anyway. I can't get my head around that its a benefit at that point. Early on when you can replace the pop in a matter of a few turns and the land isn't as mature, is easy to see the benefit.