Random Mountains

[Thormodr]

Well I do agree that certain terrain types should be more valuable. Specifically, I think that freshwater grassland and floodplains should be very valuable because that (for me) makes sense in terms of what you'd look for when settling a city. In contrast, mountains and jungles should be bad tiles because you can't really get much of anything from mountains, and jungles are notoriously hard to travel through and live in.

I don't mind a minor science adjacency bonus from mountains and jungles, that both makes sense and adds flavor to these tiles (as a compensation for their otherwise poor nature). However, I do object to the fact that mountain adjacency bonus seems to be the major source of early science, which is both nonsense and bad for gameplay (because we know how important early science is for the snowball effect on the game in general). Also, the fact that jungle tiles not only give science adjacency bonus but also have godly yields themselves even when unimproved is just plain absurd.

Agreed. I think the science yields from mountains and jungles are too high. I think historically, bonuses from mountains came fairly recently with observatories being placed on mountains and jungles being studied for medicine. To have significant bonuses early in the game is a bit silly, IMHO.

 

[Brianstorm]

Not sure how mountains give you a science bonus in the first place. Jungles make some sense, but even then the greatest universities and schools of learning in the world aren't and have never been built next to jungles (or mountains for that matter)

 

[God of Kings]

Science bonuses from mountains should only kick in upon researching Astronomy at the earliest.

 

[Thormodr]

Science bonuses from mountains should only kick in upon researching Astronomy at the earliest.

Agreed. I think faith bonuses for holy sites are fine for mountains from the start but science doesn't make much sense.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Science bonuses from mountains should only kick in upon researching Astronomy at the earliest.

In historical sim it would be the case. But in Civ gameplay is more important. Campus is quite early district (to host Library) and it needed some adjacency bonuses.

 

[kaspergm]

In historical sim it would be the case. But in Civ gameplay is more important. Campus is quite early district (to host Library) and it needed some adjacency bonuses.

No, it does not need an adjacency bonus, that's a game design choice. They could perfectly well have gone with a flat yield from the district itself and then have adjacency effects only kicking in later (which in fact I would have preferred). Of course, that would have de-emphasized the whole unstacking thing which is their baby, but my fear is that they are so enamored in this idea that they end up putting too much focus on it.

 

[stealth_nsk]

No, it does not need an adjacency bonus, that's a game design choice. They could perfectly well have gone with a flat yield from the district itself and then have adjacency effects only kicking in later (which in fact I would have preferred). Of course, that would have de-emphasized the whole unstacking thing which is their baby, but my fear is that they are so enamored in this idea that they end up putting too much focus on it.

These are different things. If developers designed the system and it doesn't work, it's a problem. If developers designed a system which works, but breaks someone's immersion, that's not a big problem.

 

[kaspergm]

But if they designed a system which works, but breaks someone's immersion AND kills balance, it starts to become a problem.

 

[stealth_nsk]

But if they designed a system which works, but breaks someone's immersion AND kills balance, it starts to become a problem.

"Works" and "kills balance" are mutually exclusive here. If system kills balance, it doesn't work.

The post was about how unrealistic is for mountains and rainforests to give bonus to Campuses.

 

[Ryika]

I think the main problem is that it's mostly a binary thing. Either you get the very important adjacency bonus or you don't. It could work very well if different types of start actually have different adjacency bonuses that make you actually play a different start.

But from what I've seen so far there just isn't a good alternative to go with when you don't have those bonuses early on.

 

[LDiCesare]

The system didn't work so they reworked the map in order to make it balanced.
I think it sucks.
As for saying gameplay first, this gets old pretty fast. Gameplay does not require graphics nor sound. Guess what's the biggest budget for games is?

 

[Plus Ultra]

I was expecting different district types to have adjacency bonuses for different types of terrain. For example, the theater square having an adjacency bonus to flat land without a forest, double adjacency bonus for cattle, horses, sheep and deer.

In other words, I was expecting no terrain to be inherently better, just more appropriate for certain district types. That way, Civs that spawn in a flat area without mountain and forests would just focus on growth (farms) and culture (theater district) rather than science in their capital.

In any case, we might be jumping to conclusions. Flat lands with rivers are probably great for farms, which have their own adjacency bonuses too, as we know, and that could mean they are already a great location for a city. If that is the case, adjacency bonuses to mountains and jungle could just be a way of compensating. If doesn't look like that is the case, but we have to play with the systems quite a bit to know for sure.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I think the main problem is that it's mostly a binary thing. Either you get the very important adjacency bonus or you don't. It could work very well if different types of start actually have different adjacency bonuses that make you actually play a different start.

But from what I've seen so far there just isn't a good alternative to go with when you don't have those bonuses early on.

Adjacency bonuses are cool, but they aren't game-defining. Yes, there could be a difference between Holy Site with adjacency bonus of +1 (1 Mountain or 2 Woods) and bonus of +5 (2 Natural Wonder tiles and a Mountain) initially, but:
- Great Prophet bonuses don't depend on the adjacency.
- Shrine gives 2 Faith, Temple gives 4. Relics and people assigned give even more faith.

So, while adjacency bonuses are important, especially early in the game, but you still could strongly focus on Religion or Science without Mountains nearby. Of course, more or less even distribution of Mountains helps this being more equal.

The system didn't work so they reworked the map in order to make it balanced.

I don't see what's the problem with map script being adjusted to game system. Once developers add new resources they alter the map scripts to have the resources too.

EDIT:

In other words, I was expecting no terrain to be inherently better, just more appropriate for certain district types. That way, Civs that spawn in a flat area without mountain and forests would just focus on growth (farms) and culture (theater district) rather than science in their capital.

Mountains have huge disadvantage - they can't be worked and nothing could be built on them. It pretty much compensates their large adjacency bonuses.

Natural wonders and Resources are better than regular tiles, yes, but that's what they are designed for.

 

[Ryika]

As for saying gameplay first, this gets old pretty fast. Gameplay does not require graphics nor sound. Guess what's the biggest budget for games is?

Probably beverages? I'd assume keeping your programmers refreshed is a pretty important and expensive process.

Not that the budget really means anything though. A more interesting question is whether there was ever a game that had great gameplay but flopped because of relatively minor aesthetic issues. I highly doubt that - but there have been tons of good-looking games that flopped because the gameplay just wasn't fun.

Take Beyond Earth as a thematic example - amazing soundtrack, okay-ish graphics... but gameplay was boring to most people, so the player numbers tanked incredibly quickly.

Overall... yeah, while gameplay does not take up the majority of the budget it's still the thing that makes or breaks a game at the very core level.

 

[Stilgar08]

Overall... yeah, while gameplay does not take up the majority of the budget it's still the thing that makes or breaks a game at the very core level.

this, exactly!

And btw, can someone please explain the problem to me? It looks fine to me! And seriously: I didn't look for fitting images I just did a google image search "Civilization 6 terrain"...

Spoiler :

http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.gamer-network.net%2F2016%2Fusgamer%2FCiv-VI-Shot-06.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usgamer.net%2Farticles%2Fcivilization-vi-preview-rebuilding-an-empire&h=1080&w=1920&tbnid=o0cZ6kj4EvLhpM%3A&docid=B7N_jmKr1p3NCM&ei=5YraV4vyBIzyUOD2pbAH&tbm=isch&client=opera&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=3597&page=0&start=0&ndsp=32&ved=0ahUKEwjL-PeOp5HPAhUMORQKHWB7CXYQMwgjKAUwBQ&bih=939&biw=1680
]http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Civilization_VI?file=Civilization_VI_-_Devs_play_as_Brazil_screenshot_-_Choose_civic.jpg

http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Civilization_VI?file=Civilization_VI_screenshot_from_CivGame_Twitter_on_2016-06-04.jpg

 

[qadams]

this, exactly!

And btw, can someone please explain the problem to me? It looks fine to me! And seriously: I didn't look for fitting images I just did a google image search "Civilization 6 terrain"...

Spoiler :

http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.gamer-network.net%2F2016%2Fusgamer%2FCiv-VI-Shot-06.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usgamer.net%2Farticles%2Fcivilization-vi-preview-rebuilding-an-empire&h=1080&w=1920&tbnid=o0cZ6kj4EvLhpM%3A&docid=B7N_jmKr1p3NCM&ei=5YraV4vyBIzyUOD2pbAH&tbm=isch&client=opera&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=3597&page=0&start=0&ndsp=32&ved=0ahUKEwjL-PeOp5HPAhUMORQKHWB7CXYQMwgjKAUwBQ&bih=939&biw=1680
]http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Civilization_VI?file=Civilization_VI_-_Devs_play_as_Brazil_screenshot_-_Choose_civic.jpg

http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Civilization_VI?file=Civilization_VI_screenshot_from_CivGame_Twitter_on_2016-06-04.jpg

That last one is so great — a long mountain range leading to a narrow, fjord-like inlet with those beautiful cliffs. I love it!

 

[Alphons Rodulfo]

For me immersion is part of the gameplay, especially in Civilization.

 

[Dunkah]

A simple fix would be for adjacent mountains/ rain forest to give +1 rather than +1 per.

But what fun would that be?

And as far as mountains taking up valuable space you just settle three hexes away so that you get the adjacency bonus without the mountains taking up valuable space.

I am very much looking forward to gaming the map, no matter what the terrain is.

 

[George Abitbol]

That last one is so great — a long mountain range leading to a narrow, fjord-like inlet with those beautiful cliffs. I love it!

I agree! I wonder if it would be possible to add some "land" cliffs (à la Age of Empire).

 

[LDiCesare]

Well, I hope you don't design software then.
In Civ IV, they did not have to alter the map scripts to handle the resources.
In Civ V, they had to, and Sirian wrote lengthy comments in the code to more or less apologize about it.
When they did that, they basically ruined map script modding and resources modding at the same time, as you suddenly had to alter both if you wanted to change one, whereas this extra work was not required in IV.
It is, objectively, technically, bad design. They could have done the same thing the Civ IV way, separating the code from the assets (resources were in xml files and the map scripts used that), but they did not.

A more interesting question is whether there was ever a game that had great gameplay but flopped because of relatively minor aesthetic issues.

I'm not talking aesthetics. I'm talking immersion. Aesthetics are a way to immerse you in the game, but not the only one. Gameplay is one facet of immersion too.
Consider Dominions IV for instance. It's imo the best strategy game ever. It's also ugly as hell with a poor UI. But gameplay-wise, it trumps everything. It will alwyas be very niche simply because of the graphics. And I'd rather it remain with simple graphics actually, because it allows for modding on a far grander scale than what even civ offers.