Random Thought #2 - Amphibious stuff

[Louis XXIV]

I think I'll start a whole bunch of threads whenever I get a good idea (or a not so good idea, it doesn't matter to me ). Here's Random idea #1 about nationality

This idea is about Amphibious stuff. I'm talking about the attack power of marines, I don't really care about that. In Civ3, I think amphibious attacks are handled pretty good. The concept of naval bombardment is much better than having a ship "attack" a land unit and risk the odd chance of a Phalanx defeating a battleship. However, there are a few things that aren't so good, and they relate almost exclusively to defending your shores.

Coastal Fortresses - OK, let's be honest. They suck. They are almost completely worthless (it would take a dumb person to fall for it, since the AI is usually smart enough not to have to deal with it). Basically, if a ship moves from one tile adjacent to it, to another tile adjacent to it, it has a chance to loose one HP.

My proposal

Zone of Control - Keep the zone of control thing. Its a minor thing, but it blocks a passage of a narrow straight. The only difference would be to increase the firepower to two shots, and to give it the chance to kill the ships.

Fire back - When a ship bombards a city that has one, it has a chance to fire back automatically. That way, even though they have a chance to attack, a coastal fortification, you can defend yourself. If you have enough ships, you can destroy the coastal fortress and than bombard whenever you want.

Defensive stuff - In addition to firing back on ships, there should be a way to soften the damage of bombardment. I think the easiest way would just have all damage hit the coastal fortress until it is destroyed.

Upgrades - Of course, Coastal Fortresses are good against Frigates, but their power isn't very much when dealing with a Battleship. Therefore it should be possible to have it upgraded or replaced at a more advanced technology.

These things would actually make the improvement useful to build.

Amphibious attacks - In World War II, they discovered that it would be suicidal to do an amphibious assault directly at an occupied French city, the defenses were just too strong. The shores of normady, as well-defended as they were, were just a little bit better. However, in Civ3, there is no extra defense that can be built to deal with amphibious assaults. Basically, what is needed for these coastal defenses is the equivalent of "sea walls" to give a defensive bonus to cities that are attacked by Marines. If you build one, they could always attack outside of the city, but it leaves them vulnerable to counter-attack, but, if you don't build one, they could capture a city, land troops inside, and have a well-defended position.

I'm hoping this idea will add to the fun factor of naval combat (although there are a lot of other areas I'm not even mentioning that could be improved).

 

[rhialto]

I think coastal forts might be better replaced with a unit. Zero move, zero attack, good defence, and monstrous sea bombardment, plus reactive fire (civ3 style zoc) out to perhaps 3 tiles.

 

[sir_schwick]

Amphibious attacks - In World War II, they discovered that it would be suicidal to do an amphibious assault directly at an occupied French city, the defenses were just too strong. The shores of normady, as well-defended as they were, were just a little bit better. However, in Civ3, there is no extra defense that can be built to deal with amphibious assaults. Basically, what is needed for these coastal defenses is the equivalent of "sea walls" to give a defensive bonus to cities that are attacked by Marines. If you build one, they could always attack outside of the city, but it leaves them vulnerable to counter-attack, but, if you don't build one, they could capture a city, land troops inside, and have a well-defended position.

I never land my troops directly against cities. It is easy enough to land on a mountain or hill with 16 MI or Infantry with accompanying units. However the seawalls(with Amphibious Warfare) could be a terrain improvement. Also, you can only attempt amphibious landings on flat or foresty terrain, no hills, mountains, etc. Seawalls would act like defenders and try and repel the attackers as well as fire on ships. However they do not disappear when troops finally get on land, instead they have to be occupied for a turn before other troops can land. Of course infinite RR movement would need to be fixed or else no one would ever survive beach landings.

 

[rhialto]

I think there should be a new water terrain type - shallows. You should only be able to do an amphibious assault from a shallows tile, which would account for maybe 1/4 of all coast. As it is now, there is so much coastline to defend that it isn't worth defending teh coast. It's far easier to guard the cities instead, with cavalry to smash the amphibious troops on the turn they land. By reducing the amount of coast you'd have to defend, you can make defending the coast a viable strategy.

 

[searcheagle]

I think there should be a new water terrain type - shallows. You should only be able to do an amphibious assault from a shallows tile, which would account for maybe 1/4 of all coast. As it is now, there is so much coastline to defend that it isn't worth defending teh coast. It's far easier to guard the cities instead, with cavalry to smash the amphibious troops on the turn they land. By reducing the amount of coast you'd have to defend, you can make defending the coast a viable strategy.

Excellent Idea. You could have some terrain which is ideal for landing amphib troops-shallows and have no negative effects, if it is unoccupied, others which is most territory, it could be done but with difficulty. On Mountains and Cliffs it would be impossible to make the landings.

 

[rhialto]

I'd say make it...

- Only launch from shallows
- Target tile must be flat ground (no hills or mountains)
- Normal zoc rules apply.
- You can always launch a marines assault directly into a city if you feel brave enough This is a necessary exception for island cities that might otherwise be unassailable.

 

[Dida]

Counter Bombardment would be a very nice feature. This feature was in CTP and CTPII. Basically, when an unit that has counter bombardment ability is being bombarded, it will automatically fire back at the same turn, w/o using a movement point. One can no longer kill a battleship by bombing it with 10 Dromons, because when fired upon, the battleship will return fire, and can kill each Dromon in one shot.

 

[rhialto]

Hmm, maybe we ought to make a list of "area control" options...

zone of control - as in civ2. I think this term should be reserved specifically for movement blocking control, as it is widely used in many other games wit that particular meaning.

reactive bombardment - When any enemy unit enters a tile within range of a bombard unit, the bombard unit gets a free shot. This is civ3's replacement for zone of control.

counter bombard - when a bombard unit is bombarded, it gets to shoot back if it has the range.

Any others?

I want all three of these in the game.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well

"Zone of Combat"- units combat whenever one goes under the other's Zone of combat (similar to Civ3's Zone of Control, but it can result in Both units taking multiple, potentially lethal amounts of damage)

 

[sir_schwick]

"Zone of Combat"- units combat whenever one goes under the other's Zone of combat (similar to Civ3's Zone of Control, but it can result in Both units taking multiple, potentially lethal amounts of damage)

This would make WE-GO a lot easier. If you are in both the ZOCombat and ZOControl of an enemy unit, your flank is facing them adn you are fubar.

 

[crimson238]

I definitly like the ideas discussed here, especially with the counter-fire, and only landing in shallows (costal fortifications could just be a regular fort, no sea walls needed really.)
As far as ZOC for movement, I think this would be better replaced with an ew ship opion "Patrol". It works just liek air superiority, It has a % chance to intercept enemy ships attempting to sneak through it's visible range, and engages them in combat.
Of course, smaller and faster ships would have a higher % chance to sneak past a patrolign ships, and submarines would have the highest (although destoryers would be better a subhunting/partolling overall, as would PT boats.)
So, that's my addition.