Randomly Conquering Monarch 6CC

[goraemon]

I just played until 1300, and focused mostly on infra. I traded paper and my world map to Asoka my turn 0, everyone else had it already. I got optics and his world map in return, and predictably, next turn we're the 1st to circumnavigate the earth.

Have we also decided to hold on to NY? I thought we were going to starve it down but suppose not.

I cleared most of the fog on our continent so barbs won't be a problem, but completely ignored pillaging in neutral territory. So next player feel free to go nuts with that.

Got some resources traded to help our GNP jump back to positive on 70% sci. Also revolted to bureaucracy. We discovered Education on my 9th turn EOT so now cities are either building uni's or have uni's queued for 1-2 turns later. We're really behind on GNP right now which concerns me, and the fact that we have a large continent for our taking but are limited to 6 cities is really unfortunate.

We have a Great ENgineer resting in capital to be used whenever.

I haven't traded Education yet, left it up to next player. We should be able to get most of the techs we lack because Cyrus and Asoka still doesn't have Edu. Peter's got it already. I've begun researching Printing press on my 10th and final turn (because we don't have philo), but once you do the tech trading you might want to switch that over to say liberalism or whatever, but only if you think we have a good chance at being 1st.

I don't know if a conquest victory is really feasible given the restrictions in this game. Everyone else has guilds now. We have to raze every city we take, and around midgame the AI really becomes quick and happy to place new cities around so even if we successfully invade Cyrus's continent we'll have to keep our military stationed at all times to keep it empty (In fact Peter is on his way to our continent right now to found some new cities). I'm not too hopeful of accomplishing all that AND keeping on tech parity for long enough to conquer everyone but hope to be educated otherwise.
View attachment 114502

 

[Greebley]

Ya, I think this is a very hard variant. My guess when we started was that this game wasn't going to be a win (I am hoping to be proven wrong though). I think we have to demolish AI core cities. Then if they build in the free space, its not terrible. The real problem will be we need to attack pretty much every civ to keep the lands clear which means we soon have bad relations and can no longer trade. I am not sure what the best way around this is. It is something this game will need to explore quite soon.

 

[Nad]

If we were assured of victory it wouldn't be very much of a challenge now, would it? In Civ 3 I've won many unlikelier victories than this. Don't know Civ 4 anywhere near well enough for such confidence but I think it's very possible if we get our tactics right. We're doing well in production and militarily and at the moment we're in there tech-wise too.

I peeked a look at the save and our empire is a little messy at the moment. Our cities have to start working cottages! We need them to mature to ensure our GNP keeps in touch of the AIs later in the game. Paris has avoid growth checked, that needs to be removed by the next player...in fact, we can even assign control of the cities to the governor and the management isn't too shoddy. We should not have traded ivory to the other civs...I even expressly pointed this out at the end of my last round so I'm a little disappointed it was ignored...right now, war elephants are one of the best units around. Our workers are smoking too, one chap is building a cottage near Orleans that can't be worked by any city. I've been guilty of a little worker weed in my last turnset, I was building mines on hills we couldn't work in the hope of popping resources, but apparently that doesn't work. If we can't find much else for our workers to do, they should at least be clearing jungle.

Re pillaging in neutral territory which someone mentioned...I haven't tried this but if it yields gold we should make the most of it. Our units are...erm...in some sort of formation . Barbwatching is one thing, but I think we've taken it a little far . I was thinking 3 or 4 units watching the space near our borders to be honest. I don't even mind barb cities sprouting up away from our borders, it's extra income for our military to provide.

I'd say this game is in the balance. We have maybe a 25% chance to win our variant at this point. Whether that chance improves depends on how well we play from this point. I think we need to regroup and take on Persia. The next 100 turns could be pivotal.

knupp715...UP NOW
Nad...ON DECK (another weekend turn? )
grs
Greebley
goraemon...just played

 

[knupp715]

Ok I've got the save and am going to play now.

I agree with what Nad said. This is a hard variant, but if we play our cards right I think we can definitely win this.

 

[goraemon]

No they're not..everyone has access to knights now, which is why I felt trading ivory wasn't a big deal. Good luck I'm curious to see how we advance from this point onwards.

 

[Nad]

Don't really want to labour this point, but we have to think through strategy a little more thoroughly than "they've got guilds, let's trade ivory".

1) Cyrus doesn't have horses, he couldn't build knights anyway.

2) War Elephants receive +50% against mounted units. They'll chew through knights like nobody's business (no defence bonuses for both types either).

3) Our offensive military consists largely of War Elephants. Given point 2, I'd rather Asoka, Cyrus and Peter built knights right now than just about any other unit.

4) Cyrus is our next target, then probably Peter.

5) Cyrus has war elephants, Peter almost certainly too. How did they build them?

6) We've let our next two targets nullify OUR strategic military advantage. With OUR ivory.

We just need to think things through more clearly, ok? Especially when the point has already been expressly made.

Anyway, onwards and upwards .

 

[goraemon]

OK, but what is the point to having a military advantage when we cannot reap the benefits? I've never been a good military strategist, but I have won enough high-level games on all standard settings to know that generally speaking, land is power. Right now we're spending resources and slowing research by taking over civs so that OTHER civs with a leftover settler can reap the benefits off of our effort for free. It'll be a matter of time before the main continent is flooded with other cities. That's the problem I see with this variant: we can keep warring and winning most but will be essentially jogging in place. Some of us are focusing on the current task at hand so much that they're failing to see the forest for the trees: where are we ultimately going with all this. Are we going to keep enough military on EVERY continent to prevent new cities while taking over others? With 6 cities of our own? We're not even going to hold our own continent clear. Are we going to outresearch the AI and compensate for our limited production with advanced units? We're not even financial and all our cities aren't exactly going to be commerce powerhouses either.

Generally speaking, there are two ways I know to ensure wins on at least Emperor: 1) small empire, perfectionist economy - where you compensate for your small land area by making maximum use out of what you have and outresearching the AI to a SS or whatever, with sharp trading and fighting some defensive wars or none; or 2) REX - where you keep and maintain a sizeable advantage in land and use it to eventually not only outresearch but completely steamroll the opponents.

What we have now is neither here nor there. So maybe there is a 3rd way - small, military powerhouses where somehow you can keep producing lots of units and keep up on tech at the same time to obliterate all 6 enemies - but I don't see it. I hate to be pessimistic and hope that by the time the turnset comes around something (I don't know what) will have happened to shift my view.

 

[knupp715]

(0) Change a lot of city tiles. I got Paris off avoid growth (how long has it been on that - the city is only at 10!!!!!!). I also take a lot of units off barb watch and start to pillage all the improvements not in our lands. I'd rather barbs build cities up north than the AI's.

I check out our trading situation. We are behind in techs, and Pete already has Education so I trade Asoka it for 3 techs (sorry never wrote which ones), his World Map, and 30 gold. Cyrus gives us engineering, his world map, and 80 gold for education. He is now at friendly with us.

(1) I start the workers to improve any unimproved tiles in the city radius, and chop all forests and jungles, including some outside our borders. I spread Buddhism in Rheims and Tours with the missionaries that goreamon left me. Where is he going?


(2) I re-evaluate some trades so we can make some more cash. We are giving ivory to Cyrus for Sugar and 9gpt. I change that to horses to Cyrus for Sugar and 10gpt. Since we are not going to go to war with Pedro right away (plus maces our out so phants aren't that strong anymore) I change the trade from Ivory to him for dye and 6gpt to Ivory to him for Dye and 7gpt.

Also this turn, I decided to pillage a farm in our territory that could never be worked for some $$$. WHAT!!! It doesn't give us gold!!! I guess you learn something new every day

(3)
Looks like Cyrus beat Pete to the spot.


IT: Our barb watch spear kills a horse archer

(4) Asoka asks as to cancel our deals with Peter, Sorry, No.

Paris builds a university and starts on a mace. I am starting to build up our military again.

(5) Asoka wants Ivory for Pigs, no thanks buddy. Not so sure that we should go after Cyrus next in war. Yes, he does have 2 cities on our continent but he is our best friend. I think maybe we should go after China once we meet them. Then again, Cyrus is in the lead with every field.

I talk to Asoka again this turn and we have Cows that we can trade to them, and they have a Pig, spices, or 7gpt. We don't need the happiness or health so I take the gold.

(6) Orleans builds a university and starts on a mace. Cyrus discovers liberalism.

IT: Our spear beats a barb axe. He is getting a lot of easy experience.

(7) We discover Printing Press this turn and start on Astronomy because it is the most expensive tech, nobody has it, and we may be able to trade it to the AI's for other techs. We currently have a monopoly on Printing Press so I don't trade it away.

(8) Paris builds a maceman and starts on another. Orleans builds a maceman too and starts on a pikeman. Another Great Engineer is born in Paris. I never did use the other one because I had nothing to rush, I wanted to save him for a GA, and the tech he discovered was Guilds which all other AI's have. Now we have two. I suggest keeping one for a GA and using the other to either rush a wonder or discover a tech (not a tech the AI knows).

IT: Our Axe kills both a barb horse archer and a swordman, more experience. We are apparently the largest Civ in the world too, (how does that happen)?


(9) Orleans builds a pike and starts a cat. New York constructs a university and starts a theatre to further expand our borders across our continent.

(10) Orleans builds a cat and starts on a theatre. I really want to expand our borders as much as we can. Rheims also builds a university and starts on a monastary to up our research time a little bit.

Edit: Forgot to mention (I'm always forgetting something), Lyons build a university and started on a caravel to meet China.

 

[knupp715]

Overview:
The World As We Know It



This settler is going up north somewhere...


Stats:



Build-up of Military:


I mainly focused these turns on increasing growth in cities (especially Paris since is was stuck on size 10!!! ), working a lot of cottage tiles to get them up and running, and started building up our military. I don't know who our next target should be.

Some more trades I forgot to mention in turn 10,
Cyrus got printing press so I traded it to Asoka for guilds, WM, and 50g. I also traded PP to Pete for philosophy, WM, and 140g. We have ivory that we can trade with Asoka for his pig or wine.

Once we hook up the banana in our territory we can trade it to Pete for whatever. Also, once we hook up rice, we can trade it to Cyrus.

One last thing, we got a lot of gold from pillaging and when we were researching Printing Press I set back research rate to 60% instead of 80% and was still researching it in the same amount of turns so we got a lot of cash. Spend it however you please.

 

[knupp715]

Also forgot to mention. I was hoping to grab astronomy before anyone else got it, but of course Cyrus did. It seems he traded it to most of the Civs. Hopefully when we contact China, we can get some useful trades from him.

Also, Nad re-read Turn 10 if you read it before I edited it. I forgot to add some information.

 

[knupp715]

1) Cyrus doesn't have horses, he couldn't build knights anyway.

Ummm, yeah about that, sorry

2) War Elephants receive +50% against mounted units. They'll chew through knights like nobody's business (no defence bonuses for both types either).

I cancelled the deal with ivory and instead gave him horses, so we don't have to worry about him with elephants.

3) Our offensive military consists largely of War Elephants. Given point 2, I'd rather Asoka, Cyrus and Peter built knights right now than just about any other unit.

This turnset I was building mainly maces to take cities, though not that many.

4) Cyrus is our next target, then probably Peter.

At first I didn't want to war with Cyrus, but he is running away with the game and we should stop him, even if he is our best friend.

6) We've let our next two targets nullify OUR strategic military advantage. With OUR ivory.

With Peter, this may be so (I'm still trading ivory to him) but by the time we actually get to him, there may be bigger and better units out there than phants.

It'll be a matter of time before the main continent is flooded with other cities. That's the problem I see with this variant: we can keep warring and winning most but will be essentially jogging in place. Some of us are focusing on the current task at hand so much that they're failing to see the forest for the trees: where are we ultimately going with all this. Are we going to keep enough military on EVERY continent to prevent new cities while taking over others? With 6 cities of our own? We're not even going to hold our own continent clear. Are we going to outresearch the AI and compensate for our limited production with advanced units? We're not even financial and all our cities aren't exactly going to be commerce powerhouses either.

I'm going to have to disagree with some of what you said here. I think this game is perfectly possible to win. All we need is good planning, good team work, and a little bit of luck.

In my personal opinion, the only ones who are going to be able to expand all over is Cyrus and Pete. Perfect reasons to go after them now. Once they are gone, we should keep a few troops (AI's defense for new cities is slim) on their continent. After them, Asoka. By this time he will start expanding to new continents. And China is last, I don't think they will be doing much expanding at all.

In my experiences, when an AI is at war, they don't usually expand all that much, and if they start going crazy, then we declare. Of course, we are already starting to prepare for another war, and with Cyrus building cities it should be soon.

What we have now is neither here nor there. So maybe there is a 3rd way - small, military powerhouses where somehow you can keep producing lots of units and keep up on tech at the same time to obliterate all 6 enemies - but I don't see it. I hate to be pessimistic and hope that by the time the turnset comes around something (I don't know what) will have happened to shift my view.

Well I for one would be happy to create a third roadway with you guys for people to use as their strategy

OK Nad is up, let's see what he can do.

 

[Nad]

Got it (10 characters)

 

[grs]

We should prepare for the next war soon!

 

[Nad]

Managed to sneak in 15 turns before the weekend starts in earnest

Inherited Turn, 1430AD

Looks good, thanks for the cash knupp715 I'll be using it for some deficit research I think. Only thing I want to change is to defend our coastal cities with more than 1 unit...a sneak declaration by one of our "friends" could prove disastrous.

The downside of researching astronomy is that it will obsolete our Colossus, but galleons are very necassary for what we want to achieve. Observatories will also be very helpful in boosting research.

I move some units around and since we will be training plenty more units, I revolt to vassalage and theocracy.

Early: emphasize food in our cities, we have lots of spare health and happiness, we need our cities to reach max size quickly.

Whip university and courthouse at Tours. Rushed Oxford with one of the engineers in Paris.

Persia has galleons sailing the seas, a naval invasion is going to be far from easy, we're only just beginning to train our navy . Persia also has muskets defending its cities. Cyrus might be our best friend but he is also our biggest threat. We have to take him out next.

Change cow for 7gpt deal with Asoka as soon as due: instead take pigs, we're gonna need extra health and happiness as we grow our cities and since we will soon have to cancel our deals with Cyrus.

Start liberalism in 1480AD as soon as astronomy is researched. Begin a round of observatories.

Middle: kill a barb longbow, sword and axe. The barbs and Asoka have both founded cities in the north of our continent, they're welcome to it for now.

Whip observatory in Tours (loads of extra food and happiness, we can make good use of the whip for now).

Start gunpowder after liberalism researched. Since only Peter lacks it, trade it to him for banking, wm + 90g.

Cyrus' Golden Age begins

Late: contact China with our caravel. They're roughly equal in tech with us but won't trade as we've been trading with their worst enemies. China and Russia both found cities on our continent, they'll be easy targets.

Gunpowder comes in, start chemistry. Trade bananas for wine with Asoka. Since Peter is the only one that lacks gunpowder, again decide to trade it for divine right, wm + 20g.

Lose a spear to a barb axe. Begin some musketeers .

Summary: mostly building and continuing setup. Paris needs an observatory soon. We could also do with fitting in a round of grocers and possibly banks at some stage, but apart from that we are looking set for building lots more military. Galleons (and frigates) from the 3 coastal cities needed desperately for invasion, plus units (musketeers, grenadiers, elephants, cats) from the 3 land cities. Our cities are growing nicely and soon we'll be able to switch back to max production (I've got them on food + cottages for now).

Chemistry is due in 1 turn, no-one else has it! I would hold onto it rather than trade. With our UU available as well, we again have a military edge.

I wouldn't worry too much about civs founding colonies on our continent, we shouldn't have too much trouble taking them out. The real difficulty is going to be invading Cyrus. Peter is friendly with us and we might sign him as an ally...the option for war vs Cyrus is available but thus far we don't have enough to offer. This could change if we get hold of an expensive tech he lacks (it's going to be expensive because the two are buddies)...but the advantage of having our next two targets fight is massive if we could get them at it.

Finally, just a quick logistics thing: below is the path for bringing irrigation to New York. We're going to need to farm over one cottage, this can be later replaced if we want.

The Saved Game: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/RCM6CC_AD-1540.Civ4SavedGame

Nad...just played
grs...UP NOW
Greebley...ON DECK
goraemon
knupp715

10-15 turns per player, as you wish.

 

[Greebley]

New York should be already irrigated. I specifically irrigated the squares three above Orleans so that we could irrigate New York by irrigating 1 to 2 squares once the border expanded.

Looking at your picture, Nad, not only did this not happen, but the farms I specifically set up to do this have been pillaged wasting the effort I put into this. This I don't get at all. Did someone pillage the farms just because it wasn't within the radius of a city? I am hoping it was barbarians.

I realize now I should have included a picture instead of just mentioning it. I thought it was obvious what I was talking about, but I guess not.

In any case I think going from the river near Orleans to New York to get irrigation will be better than the path Nad gives - it means we don't have to rip up towns and is much shorter.

I also feel that trading with Persia instead of going to war will make the game harder. I have played conquest games at normal speed and it is very easy to run out of time. Persia is now better established and stronger which will make the war longer. Because we are limited in cities, we are relatively stonger near the start of the game - thus it was the time to attack.

I really like the idea of going to war with Persia as soon as we can. If we can get Peter's support then that would be great. Perhaps if we get Chemistry we can trade it to Peter to declare on Persia as well as go to war ourselves next turn.

 

[Nad]

You're right Greebley, that path is shorter so we can do that. I have no idea what happened to your previous irrigation path.

Just in case someone has pillaged farms that weren't in city radii, can I just mention now that I have also setup an irrigation path in the EAST that gets water to Lyon's wheat tile, giving it a + 1 food bonus. Please don't pillage that path either.

As far as Persia goes, if we want to declare next turn our stack needs to be moved. It should be fairly visible but is a few tiles away from the border. From memory, I think it needs one turn to get into position...but I also remember I have moved a musketeer into it this turn, so if the stack is to be moved, do NOT use group move or the one musketeer will slow the rest of the stack down. Declaring on Persia could be tricky right now (Golden Age) but I do agree that we need action soon.

 

[grs]

I got it and will play over the weekend.

 

[knupp715]

Looking at your picture, Nad, not only did this not happen, but the farms I specifically set up to do this have been pillaged wasting the effort I put into this. This I don't get at all. Did someone pillage the farms just because it wasn't within the radius of a city? I am hoping it was barbarians.

If you read my latest turn-set carefully, you should have seen this....

Also this turn, I decided to pillage a farm in our territory that could never be worked (by a city) for some $$$. WHAT!!! It doesn't give us gold!!! I guess you learn something new every day

Sorry. Obviously I wasn't thinking about this very hard. In my attempt to grab some cash I pillaged the farm thinking it would give us some (obviously it won't as this would be a break in the game). But I had never tried it before and I learned something new. I wouldn't worry about it too much though, because we have tons of workers, and all of our city tiles are mostly improved (not New York), so there is much for them to do. Sorry about the inconvenience.

 

[Nad]

Don't worry knupp715. I figured it might be something like that. We've learned something new and no significant harm done. New York is working good tiles at the moment anyway and probably won't need the irrigation for a few more turns yet, more than enough time for our massive workforce.

 

[Greebley]

Ah ok. I do remember that comment now. Good to hear it didn't slow New York down, which is what I was worried about.

Grs, If you can't go to war with Persia on your turns, try to set things up so I can go to war. Unless someone has a reason not to, I think a Persian war in the next 20 turns is a good idea. I haven't seen the game recently though, so I don't know our relative strengths.