Vehem
Modmod Monkey
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Not sure what you mean here...? Defensive strikes haven't been altered...
Ranged Attacks
- Thread starter WarKirby
- Start date
Not sure what you mean here...? Defensive strikes haven't been altered...
kenken244
Grammar Nazi
ranged attacks count as attacking so the unit is not allowed to conduct a defensive strike. I was wondering if the unit could ranged attack and defensive strike.
Vehem
Modmod Monkey
- Joined
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Ah - didn't realize the "MadeAttack" flag prevented defensive strikes. In that case, it does still prevent them at the moment.
WarKirby
Arty person
I'm playing with Patch G now. Extensively using archers in a Deity Sidar OCC.
I'm finding them to be far WORSE than before.
The addition of the archery promotions, to extend damage caps, might be nice if I could actually use it. But at present, I'm nowhere near approaching damage caps. I'm fighting the Ljosalfar (in the open, I cut down the forest) and I'm getting 3-5% damage on their fawns with a ranged attack.
Considering they're sending average stacks of 2 fawns, an archer, and 4 warriors at me, that little damage to just one unit in the stack, makes very little difference to the battle.
Could you possibly re-examine the strength formula a bit, and maybe make them stronger? 5% damage against a fawn is pretty pitiful, and those are only strength 4.
On another note, there's some buggy behaviour going on. I'm not sure if it's intended, but you can now launch a ranged strike, and then move in the same turn. This does make the concept somewhat more useful, and I like it. However, you can't move THEN do a ranged strike. This is inconsistent, and really doesn't make any sense. It should work both ways, or neither. Although I definitely prefer retaining the mobility.
This issue is also present with the Thade's teleport ability.
I'm finding them to be far WORSE than before.
The addition of the archery promotions, to extend damage caps, might be nice if I could actually use it. But at present, I'm nowhere near approaching damage caps. I'm fighting the Ljosalfar (in the open, I cut down the forest) and I'm getting 3-5% damage on their fawns with a ranged attack.
Considering they're sending average stacks of 2 fawns, an archer, and 4 warriors at me, that little damage to just one unit in the stack, makes very little difference to the battle.
Could you possibly re-examine the strength formula a bit, and maybe make them stronger? 5% damage against a fawn is pretty pitiful, and those are only strength 4.
On another note, there's some buggy behaviour going on. I'm not sure if it's intended, but you can now launch a ranged strike, and then move in the same turn. This does make the concept somewhat more useful, and I like it. However, you can't move THEN do a ranged strike. This is inconsistent, and really doesn't make any sense. It should work both ways, or neither. Although I definitely prefer retaining the mobility.
This issue is also present with the Thade's teleport ability.
WarKirby
Arty person
Hmm, actually, about the moving then attacking. It seems you CAN bombard after moving, if you still have movement left. But not if you don't.
Although, after attacking, you still have full movement left, and can still make a move that completely exhausts that. it still doesn't make much sense, I reckon.
could it be made like a spell, that can be done regardless of whether you have movement or not?
Although, after attacking, you still have full movement left, and can still make a move that completely exhausts that. it still doesn't make much sense, I reckon.
could it be made like a spell, that can be done regardless of whether you have movement or not?
Iceciro
Special Ability: Decimate
I side with Kirby - I used to bring Archers along to soften up my enemies, but now it's gone from "occasionally handy" to "pretty useless."
Iceciro
Special Ability: Decimate
Good to hear Vehem. I love playing an ever-evolving game. Unlike standard BTS there's always some new way to change or consider 
Randomness
...
Hmm... maybe I'm just getting lucky again, but facing swordsmen, fawns, and hunters, my archers do anywhere from 2-15% damage. Still not going to let your warrior beat a level 10 panphlax... but thats not the point. I find it very useful and effective.
WarKirby
Arty person
So what sort of damage values can we now expect, with a normal archer vs strength 3, and strength 4 units ?
Vehem
Modmod Monkey
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(Rand(25) + Rand(25) + 1) * yourStrength/theirStrength
Rand(25) returns 0-24.
Archer (2) vs Strength 3 - Average of ~17%, possibly as much as 32% (if cap allows), min result does only 1% (chance of getting minResult is 1 in 625 (25x25) or around 0.16%. Middle values are far more likely.)
Archer (2) vs Strength 4 - Average of 12.5%
Archer (2) vs Strength 5 - Average of 10%
Archer (2) vs Strength 10 - Average of 5%
=====
Given the fact that high strengths are still getting hit pretty hard by the lowly archer, I'm considering
iRand = 25 + ourStrength - theirStrength
(Rand(iRand) + Rand(iRand) +1) * ourStrength - theirStrength
Archer (2) vs Strength 3
iRand = 24
Average Damage = 16%
Archer (2) vs Strength 4
iRand = 23
Average Damage = 11.5%
Archer (2) vs Strength 5
iRand = 22
Average Damage = 8.8%
Archer (2) vs Strength 10
iRand = 15
Average Damage = 3%
---
That only makes a marginal difference to the averages however...
WarKirby
Arty person
I like how these values sound against similar strength targets. The last formula you posted there, sounds pretty decent for 3/4/5, although 3% does seem a it much against strength 10. Str 10 units are immortals, generally.
Although, are magical strength bonuses(skeletons +1 death etc), and equipment (bronze/iron etc weapons) counted in these calculations?
If they are, then I think the Fine Bows promotion from the master fletcher, ought to increase ranged strength too. Seems only fair, no?
And also Fire Arrows (Enchantment II) should increase ranged strength.
Although, are magical strength bonuses(skeletons +1 death etc), and equipment (bronze/iron etc weapons) counted in these calculations?
If they are, then I think the Fine Bows promotion from the master fletcher, ought to increase ranged strength too. Seems only fair, no?
And also Fire Arrows (Enchantment II) should increase ranged strength.
Vehem
Modmod Monkey
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It's worth remembering that a Strength 5 unit with Combat 5 is effectively Strength 10 here too - so a highly promoted copper Axeman is going to be hard to shoot down (it's not just immortals).
Defensive Strength is the same as the unit would get if the Archer attacked it directly (so all bonus damage types, extra defensive strengths, weapon promotions, equipment and especially Cover Promotions help to resist the damage).
Ranged Strength is BaseAirStrength + BonusAirStrength (promotions) + a %bonus equal to half what you would get for attacking the unit directly (so Combat 5 = 50% boost, Shock grants 20% vs Melee etc). Combat 5 on an Archer is effectively a 1 point strength increase, unless the unit already has Archery 3, in which case it would be a 2.5 point increase. In general, it's better to get Archery promotions before Combat if using ranged attack.
====
Another candidate - although it's only a 1.2 reduction in damage inflicted for Str10, that's actually 40% less than it did previously.
iRand = 25 + (ourStrength - theirStrength) * 2
(Rand(iRand) + Rand(iRand) +1) * ourStrength - theirStrength
Archer (2) vs Strength 3
iRand = 23
Average Damage = 15.3%
Archer (2) vs Strength 4
iRand = 21
Average Damage = 10.5%
Archer (2) vs Strength 5
iRand = 19
Average Damage = 7.6%
Archer (2) vs Strength 10
iRand = 9
Average Damage = 1.8%
Defensive Strength is the same as the unit would get if the Archer attacked it directly (so all bonus damage types, extra defensive strengths, weapon promotions, equipment and especially Cover Promotions help to resist the damage).
Ranged Strength is BaseAirStrength + BonusAirStrength (promotions) + a %bonus equal to half what you would get for attacking the unit directly (so Combat 5 = 50% boost, Shock grants 20% vs Melee etc). Combat 5 on an Archer is effectively a 1 point strength increase, unless the unit already has Archery 3, in which case it would be a 2.5 point increase. In general, it's better to get Archery promotions before Combat if using ranged attack.
====
Another candidate - although it's only a 1.2 reduction in damage inflicted for Str10, that's actually 40% less than it did previously.
iRand = 25 + (ourStrength - theirStrength) * 2
(Rand(iRand) + Rand(iRand) +1) * ourStrength - theirStrength
Archer (2) vs Strength 3
iRand = 23
Average Damage = 15.3%
Archer (2) vs Strength 4
iRand = 21
Average Damage = 10.5%
Archer (2) vs Strength 5
iRand = 19
Average Damage = 7.6%
Archer (2) vs Strength 10
iRand = 9
Average Damage = 1.8%
WarKirby
Arty person
Having promotions other than cover count fully against ranged attacks, seems a bit much. Especially if the archers are only getting half. Why can't the archers get the full bonus too? especially considering their ranged strength is only 2, compared to their base attack str of 3.
It's all well and good saying it's best to get the archery promos first, but since they require the appropriate level of drill first, it means you need to reach lv7 to get archery III. Anyone outside of heroes is going to have significant problems doing that, since archers are generally incapable of attacking, and ranged attacks don't appear to give xp.
How about making archery II and III only require the previous level of archery, so that only Drill I would be required to acess that line? Seems to be asking a bit much otherwise. The archers are already having to sacrifice Guerilla/City defence/shock to specialise in bombarding, so I think it should be a bit more worthwhile.
It would be really nice if archers could get some amount of xp, proportional to the damage they do, on a ranged bombard. maybe damagepercent/10, so 5% damage would yield 0.5 xp. it's not a great deal, and the melee units are getting a lot more by attacking, but it would be something.
It's all well and good saying it's best to get the archery promos first, but since they require the appropriate level of drill first, it means you need to reach lv7 to get archery III. Anyone outside of heroes is going to have significant problems doing that, since archers are generally incapable of attacking, and ranged attacks don't appear to give xp.
How about making archery II and III only require the previous level of archery, so that only Drill I would be required to acess that line? Seems to be asking a bit much otherwise. The archers are already having to sacrifice Guerilla/City defence/shock to specialise in bombarding, so I think it should be a bit more worthwhile.
It would be really nice if archers could get some amount of xp, proportional to the damage they do, on a ranged bombard. maybe damagepercent/10, so 5% damage would yield 0.5 xp. it's not a great deal, and the melee units are getting a lot more by attacking, but it would be something.
Iceciro
Special Ability: Decimate
Should the Svalt/Ljoso elves get a bonus to ranged damage? I'd think that'd be a pretty spiffy addition to the elves - though I know they're strong already...
Vehem
Modmod Monkey
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2005
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I contemplated making Dexterous a +2 Ranged Strength bonus instead of +1 Offensive Strength - but I'm not sold on the idea yet. Other than the stereotype of elves, I don't think the Svartalfar have much to warrant a significant bonus to archery units...
![[to_xp]Gekko](https://civfanatics-data.community.forum/avatars/m/74/74677.jpg?1475248346){kind=avatar}
[to_xp]Gekko
QCT junkie
that would be very good imho. archers are not very good on the offense anyway, better use recon for that.
Iceciro
Special Ability: Decimate
I'd honestly like to see more ways to use archers than city defense, so I love that idea, Vehem. I'm not sure how balanced it is, but from a standpoint of wanting to bring archers in my elf stacks I like it a lot. I rarely go down the Bowyers line as anyone anyways, it'd be nice to have a reason to do it with the elves.
WarKirby
Arty person
I'm playing a Ljosalfar game now (still with patch G) testing out the ranged attack mechanics as much as possible. My main army is entirely archers
I'm getting 1% damage per attack, on city defending axemen.. not really that great.
Gilden Silveric is awesome because I got him archery III. He can do about 30-40% damage per strike, to those entrenched axemen. But to be honest, that's still not very good, because if I'd given him Combat promotions instead, he could be killing one every turn. Likewise, if my drill archers were city attack axemen, they'd probably do much better here.
It does feel overall too weak. I think factoring in all the strength bonuses for the defenders, is just too much. The previously damage estimates by vehem, were nice sounding until I learned that there's all the defence bonuses taken into account. It's so easy to get far, far beyond your normal strength, and be almost invincible to these attacks.
When I think of how easy strength 10 is to achieve, through promotions, and terrain defence bonuses, 3% seems too little.
The dextrous trait increasing ranged attack power would really be a good idea. I'd love that. It would be nice if it could also ignore the enemy's forest defences.
Kithra Kyriel can't learn the Archery promotions, presumably due to being unitcombat Mounted, rather than Archery. He's still an archer though, I reckon he should be able to. I'm guessing this issue affects all horse archers in general
Archery II and III give a bonus to ranged strength, as well as damage cap, which is an unexpected and pleasant surprise, but the drill promo requirements put them squarely out of reach most of the time. Very few archers will ever get beyond the 10 natural xp from the Archery range, due to being near incapable of attacking. 10xp allows level 4, which allows Drill I and II, and Archery I. No ranged strength bonus within reach.
Vehem did say it's better to go with the Archery promos first, over Combat, but I think I disagree now. for that 10 natural xp, an archer can get combat III instead, which will at least give a 30% bonus to the ranged attack power, versus the 0% that spending it down the archery line will get you on 10xp. Perhaps Archery I needs to give a ranged strength bonus as well ?
I'm getting 1% damage per attack, on city defending axemen.. not really that great.
Gilden Silveric is awesome because I got him archery III. He can do about 30-40% damage per strike, to those entrenched axemen. But to be honest, that's still not very good, because if I'd given him Combat promotions instead, he could be killing one every turn. Likewise, if my drill archers were city attack axemen, they'd probably do much better here.
It does feel overall too weak. I think factoring in all the strength bonuses for the defenders, is just too much. The previously damage estimates by vehem, were nice sounding until I learned that there's all the defence bonuses taken into account. It's so easy to get far, far beyond your normal strength, and be almost invincible to these attacks.
When I think of how easy strength 10 is to achieve, through promotions, and terrain defence bonuses, 3% seems too little.
The dextrous trait increasing ranged attack power would really be a good idea. I'd love that. It would be nice if it could also ignore the enemy's forest defences.
Kithra Kyriel can't learn the Archery promotions, presumably due to being unitcombat Mounted, rather than Archery. He's still an archer though, I reckon he should be able to. I'm guessing this issue affects all horse archers in general
Archery II and III give a bonus to ranged strength, as well as damage cap, which is an unexpected and pleasant surprise, but the drill promo requirements put them squarely out of reach most of the time. Very few archers will ever get beyond the 10 natural xp from the Archery range, due to being near incapable of attacking. 10xp allows level 4, which allows Drill I and II, and Archery I. No ranged strength bonus within reach.
Vehem did say it's better to go with the Archery promos first, over Combat, but I think I disagree now. for that 10 natural xp, an archer can get combat III instead, which will at least give a 30% bonus to the ranged attack power, versus the 0% that spending it down the archery line will get you on 10xp. Perhaps Archery I needs to give a ranged strength bonus as well ?
