Rat 40 - Introduction to CCM

[ThERat]

I don’t know what is going on? I can’t move the EK’s back from where they came. Could it be that since Knight can’t traverse mountains I’m screwed?

You need a road into the mountain to cross it with knights. New feature in CCM and a good one I'd say

 

[Civinator]

Cut the iron. I don’t know what is going on? I can’t move the EK’s back from where they came. Could it be that since Knight can’t traverse mountains I’m screwed? I save it in case Civinator wants a look.

Yes, that´s the reason. Mountains for most units are impassable barriers in CCM. They only can be passed by building a road on them. Now if this road is pillaged, the unit looks for ways to leave the mountain. If it doesn´t find such a way, the unit is trapped until a new road is built to that unit. If it is done cleverly to big unitstacks, in CCM even encirclement battles are possible, especially when you receive mountain troops in era 3, that can pillage roads and are strong enough to hold the position in the mountains against enemy troops that try to build the road again to their stack.

You need a road into the mountain to cross it with knights. New feature in CCM and a good one I'd say

Yes, this allows a lot of new options in gameplay for C3C, and it concerns most landunits of all eras -not only knights. So it lasted a lot of time to eleminate (I hope) all bugs caused by this setting (we had tons of freezes in the prebetaplaytests by situations most modders are not aware that they can trigger problems in C3C), I always held on that concept as in my eyes it is one of the best of CCM. It´s good that this great strategic feature of CCM here was discovered by accident.

Nevertheless I´m interested in the save-file for the overall-situation of the game. Thank you all for your exciting reports.

 

[vmxa]

Looking good, but I am confused on the Angkor and Osaka shuffle. Osaka had a uni going as the pre for a wonder, so we lose some turns by rushing the Uni. That is fine as long as we are sure no one will beat us to the wonder.

Ankor was set to start on a bank next turn as its pre, so I am not so sure swapping was required.

The Pot Palace now starts over from scratch, it may not be a big problem, but it could mean we do not get it. It surely means we get it much later.

Spain could cause some problems, if they choose to cut roads. We do not have all that much in the area. It would have been fine with me, if she waited to jump.

The thing is, are we not strong compared to her? Did we tell her to leave and she DOW, I think that is what I read. I would be interested in seeing, if she would have kept going to attack some other civ.

 

[barbslinger]

Looking good, but I am confused on the Angkor and Osaka shuffle. Osaka had a uni going as the pre for a wonder, so we lose some turns by rushing the Uni. That is fine as long as we are sure no one will beat us to the wonder.

Ankor was set to start on a bank next turn as its pre, so I am not so sure swapping was required.

The Pot Palace now starts over from scratch, it may not be a big problem, but it could mean we do not get it. It surely means we get it much later.

The Pot palace swapped to a uni that it was not going to get until we finished Physics, not from scratch. I just used the Pot Palace in Angkor because it was available with Vientiane swapping to Uni for 4 turns.
I played 1 more turn before stopping and relaxing with some TV last night and will finish up tonight.

 

[barbslinger]

Nevertheless I´m interested in the save-file for the overall-situation of the game. Thank you all for your exciting reports.

Here it is saved right after the 4 knights pillaged and wanted to move back 1 tile N to regroup.

 

[barbslinger]

Did we tell her to leave and she DOW, I think that is what I read. I would be interested in seeing, if she would have kept going to attack some other civ.

She DOW'ed after asking to leave.
After seeing the war happy jump I'm almost thinking it is a good thing as long as we stay defensive killing them in our territory (and survive initial onslaught). Is killing OK in Neutral territory to sustain war happy?

 

[vmxa]

The Pot palace swapped to a uni that it was not going to get until we finished Physics, not from scratch. I just used the Pot Palace in Angkor because it was available with Vientiane swapping to Uni for 4 turns.
I played 1 more turn before stopping and relaxing with some TV last night and will finish up tonight.

I understand that, but the net effect is to gain one turn of shields for Angkor pre and lose some turns on the Pot Palace. Lose a number of turns in Osaka on the pre. We do gain a uni in Vien. Like I said I am fine as long as we do not miss the Pot Palace by two turns.

I guess the reading of that paragraph originally made it sound like we were getting a big boost on the wonder race, but we actually lost some ground. In the end, it probably will not matter.

We will either get them or not and I doubt a turn or two will be the difference.

You can kill units in neutral land with no problems afaik. I do not lose sleep over WW or WH. Especially happy. I am just not a certain as the others that Spain will not cause us any problems.

I would have prefered we do not ask them to leave right away and see where they go and how many are coming. When I checked on the F3 it says we are average vs Spain and srong vs Canada.

That suggest there was a fair chance Canada was the target. In a few turns it would have been clear. I do not really see how we are well place in that area for war.

We have 1 knight, the rest are 3 attack or less. One warrior and 1 enslaver and some 3 attack units. Vient has 3 units no strong attackers. The least they will do damage is to the land.

Five places making units for two fronts is not a strong stance. It was enough for one war at a time. Lets not forget these are DG civs and this CCM. That means they can afford to crank out troops.

 

[Greebley]

Quote:
Originally Posted by vmxa
I would submit that hidden units should have their movement cut to 1 or all hidden units should be able to detect them End Qute.

"All holymen (and all workers) can detect them. In my eyes this more than enough. In my games some holly men work like an early form of a radar, as they get a lot of helpful informations by their supporters making them noting all units in their neighbourhood. If these hollymen live on mountains, they are even more famous and get informations about otherwise invisible units two fields away."

The amount of land that will have to be monitored is too great to have detectors in all the required places. Being able to move 2 tiles undetected is a bit of annoyance. You really cannot spare holymen to sit in all the places you would need them.

The AI sends them into battles that it has limited chances to win and will die, even when it wins on the next turn (much opf the time). Human players will move theirs under protection. The more complex and complicated you make it, the better for the human.

It is like a home game of poker, before holdem. The dumber the player the more they wanted strange rules. The more rules they come up with the better for smarter players.

Not sure this map is representative as it is huge. I would think on a standard size map, it is much easier to cover the borders. I think the speed 2 units is fine.

BTW, if a worker or holy man are on a hill (or invisible unit is on a hill), can it spot a hidden unit 2 squares away (assuming it can see that square?). I thought there was a case where I was covering all the hill squares, but still got attacked by a invisible unit. This seemed to indicate that workers could only spot invisible units next to them. However, It is sometimes hard to know exactly what squares you cover with a unit so I may have been mistaken and there was a spot I couldn't see.

 

[barbslinger]

I understand that, but the net effect is to gain one turn of shields for Angkor pre and lose some turns on the Pot Palace.

But Vientiane did not build a uni? Uni was a prebuild to switch BACK to Potola after getting physics. No shields lost at all. Only sped the Angkor build. The Osaka Uni rush was one turn lost and admittedly a risk. It makes a lot fewer shields than Angkor I set it on EK slow build and it had 49 shields in the box on the swap to Copes.

 

[barbslinger]

That suggest there was a fair chance Canada was the target. In a few turns it would have been clear. I do not really see how we are well place in that area for war.

We have 1 knight, the rest are 3 attack or less. One warrior and 1 enslaver and some 3 attack units. Vient has 3 units no strong attackers. The least they will do damage is to the land.

I guess I didn't want to take the chance of a sneak attack on the core. Not a big fan of letting a lot of units stroll through our core on the chance they may not attack. I thought they would withdraw if Canada was their plan and then I would have ROP'ed with them (maybe). I have about 7 EKs on site now and Spain is on the outer ring of Mandalay and in neutral territory with about 9-12 units. I was short-rushing 2-turn EK's out of Da Nang and Saigon? which are in close proximty of Mandalay. I will probably be short rushing EK's in 1 turn (scout 80g > EK ??g) for the next few turns. I already rushed a Arque in Mandalay./`

 

[Civinator]

Here it is saved right after the 4 knights pillaged and wanted to move back 1 tile N to regroup.

Thank you very much.

 

[vmxa]

"I guess I didn't want to take the chance of a sneak attack on the core. Not a big fan of letting a lot of units stroll through our core on the chance they may not attack. "

You may be right, but we could afford to hang a bit and see how it shakes out. I understand the concern. It is not uncommon at higher levels to have something like this pop up. I run into this a number of times. If we were strong, they may have left, but we are average.

It would have been slow moving for them with all the hills to get to any place as as you have done we could rush up a lot of units. Blocked the second wave from entry and see if they attack.

Barbslinger nothing you have done is wrong, I am just tossing out some thoughts. I like to see what others are seeing and maybe incorportate some others perspective, if it makes sense to me.

No one knows if they were coming for us or someone else. All I am saying is that the units we are rushing now will not be helping us with Carthage. Maybe it was in the cards all along.

 

[barbslinger]

Agreed with your assessment VMXA. If it would have been an area of our country that was not the direct core to get there I may have let them pass under suspicion. Unfortunately, it would have been our core. I think we'll be OK and I will be checking for peace. We may not want it for the happiness and after the initial onslaught just knock down the units Spain dribbles in to us for a leader or two.
I'm really looking forward to tonight after work, 6:30pm Pacific time, to continue this.

 

[Civinator]

As this is a central point, where CCM is different to other Civ 3 mods, here is a screenshot showing the situation of the knights in the moutains (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9241459&postcount=322) , that have lost the road on the mountain:



These knights now can only enter a mountain, that has a road on it, if they use this road, so they have to move via an accessable file that contains the road leading to the mountain.

So the knights could enter a mountain via the red route in 3 turns over two fields of plains to another field with plain, an irrigation and a road, that continous its way on the mountain, or

the knights could enter a mountain over the blue route, moving two tiles over plains to reach a road that leads on the mountain.

The knights can also move over hills, as in hills movement for knights isn´t forbidden (only slowed down).

Mountains that don´t contain a road on them that is continuing to a field that is allowed for that unit, can never be entered by the knights.

I hope, this helps a little bit.

 

[barbslinger]

It explains it and I thought it was something like that. It really threw me when I could not return from where I had come from so WATCH OUT when pillaging because you can not return to a roaded mountain. I elected E 1 tile and there was Sabratha.

 

[barbslinger]

@ Civinator
Could you address the diplomacy change I saw. I could not negotiate with Carthage after the road cut to verify his lack of iron. Also only allowed to accept what he offers for peace; can't ask for more money or cities.

 

[Civinator]

so WATCH OUT when pillaging

...and this concept has a deep additional strategic potential compared to normal Civ 3.

 

[barbslinger]

...and this concept has a deep additional strategic potential compared to normal Civ 3.

Absolutely! Recognizing this change during game play will take some getting used to. If the enemy is posted on a mountain and you are on an UN-roaded flatland they can't attack. Also workers can only be covered by Yogis, etc while re-roading. Conversely, we can only attack them with Yogis, etc.

 

[Civinator]

Absolutely! Recognizing this change during game play will take some getting used to. If the enemy is posted on a mountain and you are on an UN-roaded flatland they can't attack. Also workers can only be covered by Yogis, etc while re-roading. Conversely, we can only attack them with Yogis, etc.

The enemy can enter an unroaded flatland from a mountain.

@ Civinator
Could you address the diplomacy change I saw. I could not negotiate with Carthage after the road cut to verify his lack of iron. Also only allowed to accept what he offers for peace; can't ask for more money or cities.

You must be in peace when doing normal trade. Therefore, if you you want to use the normal trade menue with a civ you are in war, you first must offer peace. You also have the both other options for negotiating about peace.

Spoiler :

 

[barbslinger]

The enemy can enter an unroaded flatland from a mountain.

Whoops!

if you you want to use the normal trade menue with a civ you are in war, you first must offer peace. You also have the both other options for negotiating about peace.

I'll have to have another look later at the diplomacy but I could not find out the max amount I could get from him last night.