Rat 40 - Introduction to CCM

[vmxa]

I think we'll be OK and I will be checking for peace. We may not want it for the happiness and after the initial onslaught just knock down the units Spain dribbles in to us for a leader or two.
I'm really looking forward to tonight after work, 6:30pm Pacific time, to continue this.

Yes it more fun to be at war than at peace, well as long as you are doing well.

Once we manage to handle the initial rush and then next wave and about when they may want peace, is the time we would not have much interest in peace. IOW by that point we probably want to just eliminate them.

I have no doubt that you will manage things very nicely indeed.

I am not sure I follow what Civinator was sayiing about the trade stuff. You cannot trade in C3C with anyone that you are at war with, unless you have peace as part of the deal. So CCM and C3C are the same in that regard.

 

[barbslinger]

Here is where I was confused. The 1st option is "Our troops approach your cities. I urge you to discuss peace terms while there is still time." This implies I am in a position of power and should be able to negotiate. You can't if choosing this. It only shows terms and you can accept or not accept.
The 2nd option is "We seem to have overextended ourselves. Will you sign a peace treaty?" This implies that I am NOT in a position of power and if he gives me peace I will accept it. I was leery of trying this option because I was afraid Carthage would say, "DONE!" and peace would be granted.

I think that the options should be switched around so that I can discuss peace terms and dictate what I want from him if I am to give him peace.

 

[barbslinger]

I have no doubt that you will manage things very nicely indeed.

We'll see tonight. I still don't know what the Spain total counts are. My write up tonight will outline counts on both wars 1st. Then we will see. Combat calculator at the ready! May the RNG gods be smiling upon us!

 

[vmxa]

I doubt we want peace, this is to the death.

 

[vmxa]

I cannot recall the screenie. I mean I know I have seen it, but I forget the circumstances or the actions taken.

iirc it is one that lets you take it and they reply with an offer. My best guess was it was a way to get a chance for them to offer something, when they would not in a peace deal as the second option proposes.

 

[barbslinger]

I doubt we want peace, this is to the death.

I use this option to determine how well the war is going. If he will give more than previous turn I "won" during the previous turn and I am gaining ground.
Oh, it is to the death

 

[ThERat]

I guess currently we will just do enough to keep Spain at bay until we clear the southern part of our continent.

As we can get nice trading partners overseas, we don't need to rely on Spain I guess.

 

[barbslinger]

I have the 1510 save so after I complete my turns and post I'll check if Spain was planning war by getting an ROP. Should I also TEST if she would blow a gpt deal by trading UNI to her or no trade?

 

[Civinator]

I am not sure I follow what Civinator was sayiing about the trade stuff. You cannot trade in C3C with anyone that you are at war with, unless you have peace as part of the deal. So CCM and C3C are the same in that regard.

This is what I tried to say.

Now I understand it. You are using an obsolete diplomacy.txt file with invisible sentences. In this obsolete textfile, the text was there, but it couldn´t be seen. It was discovered and fixed by Tom 2050:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8893954&postcount=243

You should use the updates of the texfiles and other files in that post in addition to betatest-biq 1.4 (Textfiles upload3 zip):

http://www.stormoverciv.org/forums/showpost.php?p=24362&postcount=5

 

[vmxa]

I think that is what I had mentioned to Barbslinger in the CCM thread, that his text was not using the 1.3. He had the 1.4 biq, but not all the updates that preceeded.

 

[barbslinger]

(6) 1515 AD
Persia stated Hansiatic in Antioch. Spy shows he will complete in 14.
After the game I played the game from prior save and didn’t ask her to leave or else and she declared.

Counts:
Spain in view:
9WE, 2 Bombarde, 3 Treb, 4 chariot, 3 knight and 1 cat. 22 units
Indo-China:
1 Arque, 2 MedInf, 4 EK, 1 WE, 1 LB and a warrior with 4 EK arriving next turn

In the South we have 12 EK’s to take Sabratha on a hill. 10 Ek’s in surrounding hills and 7 EK’s and an Arque ready to march on Theveste if Sabratha falls. Another 4 Arques available in the area to decide on after Sabratha.

We meet Rome through a worker. No real deals here.
On a positive note – Newtons in 3!!! Copes in 9, Hansiatic and Potala in 13.

IT

No attacks but they are infiltrating. Easier attacks vs. higher chance of pillage.
An escorted ship is sneaking around by Pusan.
Give Monte ROP.
Holland ROP
Carthage attacks with 2 longbows. We win one and retreat one.
Delhi – EK > Arque in 3. I’m going to slow the rushing here because we will need the money in the north.
P’yongyang – Market > Slavery to get 10 spt out of it.
Bombay – Arque > EK. It’s at 24spt and I think I can get 25 with a tile swap.
Madras – Arque > Slavery to be rushed. It makes 13spt right now.
Saigon – EK > EK
Edo – Uni (39 to 52 bpt) > Bank for more beakers
Rangoon – EK > Short rush EK in 1. It will take swapping a tile with Angkor but Angkor is down to 2 turns on Newtons so It probably has an over run.
Cheju – Duct > Arque
Bangkok – EK > EK in 1. Rushing costs 160g if using scout / Asian Long sword. 400g for a straight rush.
Da Nang – EK > EK in 1 Same as above.
Ulsan – Slavery > Market in 34. 23gpt vs 3spt
Jaipur – Town Center > Slavery. It has only on flatland for food. What was Ghandi thinking?
Mandalay – Royal Barracks > Arque short rushed in 1. Spain is covering a lot of tiles so we may starve a bit.
Canadiens building Hansiatic. Pretty popular wonder! 11 pop in Vancouver will not get it quicker than us.

(7) 1520AD

38 Spanish units in view. 2 cats, a bombarde and a treb next turn. 22 units look to be flanking Mandalay to the left heading more to Da Nang and Vientiane.
Canada offer 91gpt and 1300g for UNI. 9731g +345gpt
The Angkor swap with Rangoon works but we starve 2 turns in Angkor. No pop loss. Carthage has a boat outside of Kyoto. Send an EK and 2 WE’s to shadow both Spanish and Carthage in Far West cities.
Attack on Sabratha:
4 hp Bomnarde v. 3hp Swiss Merc – 1 hp damage and retreat
4 hp treb v 4 hp Afrika – 2 damage and retreat
Lose an EK doing 2 hp damage on Swiss
4hp EK takes down Afrika Spear with no damage.
Use a Brahmin and crap my pants when I realize he was a holy man to attack 1 hp Swiss. Whew! Not only do we take the city but we get a monk! New governor > Walls for now > Culture bomb.
Huh, only 2 units guarding the Iron town? There are 7 stragglers that were flanking on the plains west of Sabratha. It is also Arctic S of Sabratha so it is the end of the mountain range. & units go down in the plains with 1 EK loss. Totals on Sabratha siege – 9-2
Send 18 EK’s, 2 Arques, Bombarde towards Theveste. I like Theveste better than Leptis Minor. Divide and Conquer and all that. Hopefully we won’t need 18 EKS plus the 8 or so behind them so I can culture bomb and go after Leptis AND Carthage with the border expansion. We will also control the mountain road.

In Mandalay:
Take down the 2 Bombarbs, cat and treb but leave a warrior exposed. Lost a WE on RNG. Happy the warrior was able to take down the 1hp treb. Took out 1 stacked WE and yhen lost an EK to a Knight. Would have rather of had the bad RNG in the South, not here. Have an Arque, MedInf (3 def) and 8 EK’s in Mandalay. Arque and an MI forted on hills. 2 knights and 2 chariots can hit the city this turn. Saw an enslaver outside of Hanoi that had to be killed with an Arque.

IT

No attacks on Mandalay.
They are going around. Holland finishes incense deal. We give UNI for 840g and incense renewal.
Carthage sends 1 Knight towards Sabratha and turns his ship around that was in our far West. I’ll sweep it with the knight.

Seoul - Arque > EK in 1
Tokyo – EK > EK in 1
Rangoon – EK > EK in 1
Bangkok – EK > EK in 1
Sabratha resistence over
Da Nang – EK- EK in 1
Mandalay – Arque > Arque in 1
Carthage in it’s AI wisdom starts the Art of Islam in ???
Hebrew finished Hansiatic!
Persia swaps to Art of Islam.
French finish Doge Palace – Naval Guns which is after NAV
Vikings finish Jolly Roger. – Naval Guns which is after NAV

(8) 1525
Look at swaps for Hansiatic going down and Buddhistic Art is available in 7. It looks the same as Potala Palace in Civlo but not quite?? I’m going to leave this Build and post after this turn. It is almost 11pm.
Spanish won’t negotiate.
Move Theveste stack closer.
I have a pike and an Arque swapping between Osaka and Ulsan to upgrade the pike. The EK guarding Ulsan is a temp.
We have some arques on hills fortified out side of Mandaly. There are 9 WE and a Knight that can attack Mandalay from 2 tiles away but they look to be heading S. Another stack of 11 units 1N1NE of Mandalay consisting of of 1 Arque, bombarde, 3 cats, 3 Longswords, pike and 2 trebs. I lost a knight on the Arque but I think if you let them in and you can crack the Arque the rest will fall. We have 10 EK’s and 2 other Arques in Mandalay but 7 EK’s need to heal. The roads around Mandalay are horrible defensively and I have lost a couple units not seeing thwm. Getting tired.
Newtons next turn! I still would not trade Physics. You can probably rush the Edo bank. Ballistics in 5. Leader is headed for Angkor to rush a bank. Don't forget to short rush EK's in the cities that are EK in 1.
I think we can do OK in Mandalay with patience. It will be very hard to take it across river on a hill.

 

[ThERat]

looking tense, too bad about losing that wonder, but that won't be the end.


got it

 

[Civinator]

(6) 1515 ADLook at swaps for Hansiatic going down and Buddhistic Art is available in 7. It looks the same as Potala Palace in Civlo but not quite??

The Potala Palace is more powerful. Both double the happiness of stupas. But you get an additional +1 happiness in each of your cities by Buddhistic Art and that´s worth to build it.

 

[barbslinger]

Couple of parting shots:

Carthage is gassed only having 2 spears in Sabratha and trickles coming at us. I was going to split the attack on the road half towards Leptis and half towards Theveste and sacrifice a knight cutting the 3rd of the 3 roads at the fork there. Then they can't slide into the mountain pass. I think you should be able to roll those 2 cities and then march on Carthage. Roll 'em up after that.

In Mandalay they don't seem to want to attack Mandalay but seem to want to slide by heading towards the core. They have switched the flanking from the West to the East which is good that Mandalay is not starving but now we attack them on hills.
Teh trebs, cats, bambardes are a tough offensive unit but exposed they fall easy. If we can continue the short rush in the 20+ shield cities utilizing rush scout for 80g > Rush spear for 80g > Set to EK we should be able to ping the defensive cover enough that they would retreat and semi-expose the arty to take them down. They look like they are heading towards Vientiane so getting 3-4 Arques there and muskets when we get to Ballistics in 2-3? it will help alot. Once they are on our flats around Vientiane we should be able to knock them down easily and then go Spain for their treachery.

Who knows, with this rushing bit we may be able to handle the 2 front war.

BTW: A lot of my explanations are more for the lurkers than for you guys to pay heed to. I'm just getting my CIV legs back under me.

 

[barbslinger]

The Potala Palace is more powerful. Both double the happiness of stupas. But you get an additional +1 happiness in each of your cities by Buddhistic Art and that´s worth to build it.

Do we get double and then double again if we get both or should we swap a build?

 

[Northern Pike]

Fine work coping with the two-front war.

It's a matter of taste, but I think we'd find the Carthaginian campaign simpler if we took Leptis Minor first and then proceeded directly south through their core. If we take Theveste first our SoD will have to change direction a couple of times, which slows things down. Barbslinger, I do appreciate your providing your rationale for attacking Theveste first.

Once again the one-turn roading stack of workers that I moved to the front has drifted far to the rear over the succeeding rounds. The ability of the fast workers in CCM to build roads instantly provides a real and valuable tactical option which we shouldn't be dismissing like this. I suspect the recent tough fighting in the mountains would have been easier if we could have built our own roads rather than being tied to the existing network. I'd get the stack of workers outside Bombay, minus one foreign worker, moving south as soon as possible.

With a couple of Wonders about to accelerate our tech pace, my point about how slavery builds won't last long enough to pay for themselves applies more strongly than before. I'd change all such builds now.

 

[Northern Pike]

Do we get double and then double again if we get both or should we swap a build?

I wondered this too. It would seem a little excessive for redoubled stupas to be worth eight happiness. But obviously the direct happiness effects of the two Wonders (as distinct from the indirect effect on stupas) are cumulative, so there's no reason not to have both.

 

[vmxa]

Workers can now be on the front under a couple arque units or three. Prior to that, they would have had to have more knights than could be spared or even existed at the front. I moved them on the basis that they would have little they could do near Carthage lands at the time as I had zero defending units.

We did not even need any roads to hit Leptis at the time. We had a road to their border and could not use roads in their land anyway. We did need two roads to shorten the trip from the core to Karachi.

One to cut directly to Ulsan and one to the town I captured. We also could use a road near Karachi to speed the way. Those got built. Well at least two of the three, I am not sure if the shorter road from Ulsan to the captured town was finished.

The road from that town was done to Karachi and the one on the hills by Karachi. Also one to the new coastal town so it was connected.

 

[Northern Pike]

I don't question that what you and other players did was justified on a turn-by-turn basis. I just look at the situation now, with our nearest workers about eighteen tiles from the front, and feel we're not using an important option in CCM.

More broadly, I'm willing to "waste" some worker-turns to keep one roading stack at the front where it can be extremely useful at times. I've said it before: having every worker do something every turn is a general principle, not a religion.

 

[barbslinger]

That's my bad about the roads. They were working S bombay when I started (I think) and I just used them to improve tiles there. Another group cleared an Osaka jungle and now working an adjacent cities jungle. I must agree that with the lack of workers you really have to plan their usage. The roads in Carthage are pretty laid out for us at the present. Fog still covers what we would need to get to Portugal from Carthage. With the lack of workers it may be advisable to do Canada first. They have a road network right from just about our border and I would bet they connect to Canada. Perhaps some knight probing in E India to see what it would take to get to either Canada or Portugal.