Rate the Beliefs - part III: Follower beliefs

[Carmack]

Yeah I have no clue what the person was thinking when they made Liturgical Drama. They had to be running out of ideas or something. It's like they never thought about the practicality of it and I'm willing to bet the person who designed Liturgical Drama has never used it.

Liturgical Drama should definitely receive some attention in a future patch or BNW. Maybe boost Liturgical Drama to something like +2 faith and one extra artist slot in amphitheaters. Or artist specialists in the amphitheater grant faith. I'm not pretending to make a balanced suggestion, just tossing something out there. It's definitely a joke of a belief though.

 

[kaspergm]

Making it apply to all Culture buildings would be a good start. I know people say you normally don't want faith from your Follower beliefs, and arguably most of the times you don't, but in the case where you pick a no-faith Pantheon - say for instance you start in Jungle and pick the Culture from Jungles belief - a solid Faith-generating belief can be a reasonable pick as one of your followers. If Liturgical Dramas added +1 Faith from Monuments, Amphitheatres, Opera Houses, even Museums and possibly even Broadcast Towers, you could get some good Synergy going in a Cultural game.

 

[Arachnofiend]

The problem is that it's still competing with much better beliefs. It's hard to justify taking a faith bonus in a culture game when you could be getting Cathedrals, Religious Art, or Feed the World. Hell if I need faith that badly then Divine Inspiration will get me more.

 

[Carmack]

Don't forget you can buy great artists with faith.. so faith isn't entirely useless for a cultural victory.

 

[guinsoo]

4 - Asceticism: Shrines provide +1 Happiness in Cities with 3 followers [easy to fulfill the condition, cheap happiness]
4 - Cathedrals: Use Faith to purchase Cathedrals (+1 Faith, +3 Culture, +1 Happiness, Artist Specialist slot) [great for cultural wins, subpar in most other situations]
2 - Choral Music: Temples provide +2 Culture in Cities with 5 followers [playable, but barely]
4 - Divine Inspiration: Each World Wonder provides +2 Faith in city [very useful if you're building a lot of wonders]
3 - Feed the World: Shrines and Temples provide +1 Food each in city [Works better than fertility rites / swords into plowshares in many/most situations]
4 - Guruship: +2 Production if city has a Specialist [Great for wide strategies]
2 - Holy Warriors: Use Faith to purchase pre-Industrial land units [Dunno. Never tried this with desert folklore, but I always found the units too expensive]
-7 - Liturgical Drama: Amphitheaters provide +1 Faith in cities with 3 followers [just no]
2 - Monasteries: Use Faith to purchase Monasteries (+2 Faith, +2 Culture, more with Wine or Incense) [Generally not the best, unless you are just overflowing with wine or incense. Even then, pagodas probably still better]
3 - Mosques: Use Faith to purchase Mosques (+3 Faith, +2 Culture, +1 Happiness) [passable filler if you miss pagodas]
5 - Pagodas: Use Faith to purchase Pagodas (+2 Faith, +2 Culture, +2 Happiness) [you can almost never go wrong with pagodas]
4 - Peace Gardens: Gardens provide +2 Happiness in city [Great in some starts, if river heavy and science, culture, or diplomacy victory focus]
2 - Religious Art: Hermitage provides +8 Culture in city [Best option for OCC culture, OK option for other culture wins]
3 - Religious Center: Temples provide +2 Happiness in cities with 5 followers [Pretty solid, but 5 followers is tougher to unlock than 3 followers, better for tall strategies which usually don't have happiness concerns]
5 - Religious Community: +1% Production for each follower (max +15%) [Fantastic for tall strategies, even decent for wide strategies, not good for ICS, has great immediate impact on capital when you found your religion]
1 - Swords into Plowshares: 15% faster Growth rate for city if not at war [It's just too hard to control when you're at war, and 15% growth isn't enough payoff for the drawback]

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

The problem is that it's still competing with much better beliefs. It's hard to justify taking a faith bonus in a culture game when you could be getting Cathedrals, Religious Art, or Feed the World. Hell if I need faith that badly then Divine Inspiration will get me more.

The religion system is fascinating in that weakness in follower beliefs is strength, since it helps foreign civilizations less. It would be really annoying to take, say, Religious Community, actually succeed to convert a tall strat enemy, and now get outproduced. A player can war you and you can't take your religion back from him, it breathes on its own. But OTOH, a wide empire around you can only enjoy a tiny fraction of this belief while you may be tall. In reverse for Guruship.
When you have already got a lower tier founder belief, situationally you have to think about what you will really gain or lose overall, and that excites me, at least.

I will be very disappointed, if not disenchanted entirely, were the Follower beliefs all to be completely normalized to one power level (or even close). Thinking about this tradeoff is 90% the reason for my buying G&K.

...
still, all of that said Liturgical Drama is hilari-bad.

 

[kaspergm]

The problem is that it's still competing with much better beliefs. It's hard to justify taking a faith bonus in a culture game when you could be getting Cathedrals, Religious Art, or Feed the World. Hell if I need faith that badly then Divine Inspiration will get me more.

Indeed, there are better beliefs, but a) they might be taken, and b) you won't get much benefit of taking for instance Cathedrals if you don't have a steady output of faith to fuel your purchases. Obviously, the current +1 Faith per city that Liturgical Dramas will give you is just plain bad, but if this was increased to cover more buildings (for a total of +4 or perhaps +5 per city in late game) or conversely, give more Faith for each building but limit to fewer buildings (perhaps +2 Faith for each Amphitheatre, Theatre and Opera House) the output would not be that bad. I agree with Horseshoe-Hermi that not all beliefs should be equally appealing, but this belief could be made at least meaningful without necessarily being your first choice.

 

[Xiao Xiong]

Oh I am going to bring a different perspective because i hate the building follower beliefs. First, they use up faith at a time when I want to be popping missionaries. Second, puppets never get the benefit. The only circumstance I'd consider pagoda or similar is if I think I am not going to be able to spread my religion beyond my own cities, or if I am desperate for a solution to a severe happiness problem.

5 - Asceticism: Nice happy bump up just when you really need it
2 - Cathedrals: uses up faith
5 - Choral Music: fantastic if you already scored religious ctr and you went piety
1 - Divine Inspiration: why do i need this after i already got religion
3 - Feed the World: rare i get it out of concerns for excess growth = unhappy
1 - Guruship: benefit comes way too late
3 - Holy Warriors: i usually already built up most of my military by this time & uses up faith
0 - Liturgical Drama: too little, too late
3 - Monasteries: uses faith; maybe if i have a lot of wine and inscence maybe
2 - Mosques: uses faith
3 - Pagodas: uses faith; maybe if i have a severe happiness problem
1 - Peace Gardens: wow so that is +2 happy empire wide, for my capital
3 - Religious Art: nice for a tall empire i guess
5 - Religious Center: fantastic if you go piety, esp if you then get choral
1 - Religious Community: really, 1%, wow...
2 - Swords into Plowshares: causes happy problems or comes too late

If I think I can spread my religion I buff up my temples. If there are very special circumstances I might pick pagoda, warrior or monasteries. If I can't think what else to do, and it's available, I pick asceticism as a good default that almost always helps me out.

My goal is to pop as many missionaries as early as I can so the buildings just get in the way. They use up valuable faith that prevents me from getting my religion out there. Spreading your religion to other players and CS's that don't have it at all yet is very powerful.

As a result buildings are rarely useful, only if I am behind on religion and struggling to spread it even to my own cities. If I can spread to others, I pop off missionaries at first and by the time I get the buildings it's just too late to be worth it.

I try and go for combined benefits. If I got ceremonial burial already for shrines then asceticism just piles on and increases the value of my hammers. Similarly if I go for religious center I try and pile on with choral to make those hammers on temples count for the max.

 

[guinsoo]

Indeed, there are better beliefs, but a) they might be taken, and b) you won't get much benefit of taking for instance Cathedrals if you don't have a steady output of faith to fuel your purchases. Obviously, the current +1 Faith per city that Liturgical Dramas will give you is just plain bad, but if this was increased to cover more buildings (for a total of +4 or perhaps +5 per city in late game) or conversely, give more Faith for each building but limit to fewer buildings (perhaps +2 Faith for each Amphitheatre, Theatre and Opera House) the output would not be that bad. I agree with Horseshoe-Hermi that not all beliefs should be equally appealing, but this belief could be made at least meaningful without necessarily being your first choice.

Listen to what you're saying though. You're talking about a 4x or 5x multiplier in power in order to make it even worth thinking about. That's... just really bad design man.

 

[kaspergm]

Listen to what you're saying though. You're talking about a 4x or 5x multiplier in power in order to make it even worth thinking about. That's... just really bad design man.

Well I don't think anybody questioned that Liturgical Dramas stinks in its current form. The point I wanted to make was that a follower beliefs that provides Faith from Culture buildings was not necessarily a bad idea ... it just needs to be "a bit" (read: a lot) more faith than it currently provides.

 

[Evie94]

3: Asceticism: Shrines provide +1 Happiness in Cities with 3 followers
2: Cathedrals: Use Faith to purchase Cathedrals (+1 Faith, +3 Culture, +1 Happiness, Artist Specialist slot)
2: Choral Music: Temples provide +2 Culture in Cities with 5 followers
5: Divine Inspiration: Each World Wonder provides +2 Faith in city
3: Feed the World: Shrines and Temples provide +1 Food each in city
3: Guruship: +2 Production if city has a Specialist
4: Holy Warriors: Use Faith to purchase pre-Industrial land units
0: Liturgical Drama: Amphitheaters provide +1 Faith in cities with 3 followers
1: Monasteries: Use Faith to purchase Monasteries (+2 Faith, +2 Culture, more with Wine or Incense)
2: Mosques: Use Faith to purchase Mosques (+3 Faith, +2 Culture, +1 Happiness)
5: Pagodas: Use Faith to purchase Pagodas (+2 Faith, +2 Culture, +2 Happiness)
3: Peace Gardens: Gardens provide +2 Happiness in city
2: Religious Art: Hermitage provides +8 Culture in city
4: Religious Center: Temples provide +2 Happiness in cities with 5 followers
2: Religious Community: +1% Production for each follower (max +15%)
5: Swords into Plowshares: 15% faster Growth rate for city if not at war

 

[Andra Bullar]

5 - Asceticism: Shrines provide +1 Happiness in Cities with 3 followers
5 - Cathedrals: Use Faith to purchase Cathedrals (+1 Faith, +3 Culture, +1 Happiness, Artist Specialist slot)
2 - Choral Music: Temples provide +2 Culture in Cities with 5 followers
4 - Divine Inspiration: Each World Wonder provides +2 Faith in city
3 - Feed the World: Shrines and Temples provide +1 Food each in city
1 - Guruship: +2 Production if city has a Specialist
3 - Holy Warriors: Use Faith to purchase pre-Industrial land units
0 - Liturgical Drama: Amphitheaters provide +1 Faith in cities with 3 followers
3 - Monasteries: Use Faith to purchase Monasteries (+2 Faith, +2 Culture, more with Wine or Incense)
3 - Mosques: Use Faith to purchase Mosques (+3 Faith, +2 Culture, +1 Happiness)
5 - Pagodas: Use Faith to purchase Pagodas (+2 Faith, +2 Culture, +2 Happiness)
1 - Peace Gardens: Gardens provide +2 Happiness in city
5 - Religious Art: Hermitage provides +8 Culture in city
3 - Religious Center: Temples provide +2 Happiness in cities with 5 followers
5 - Religious Community: +1% Production for each follower (max +15%)
3 - Swords into Plowshares: 15% faster Growth rate for city if not at war

 

[FstrthnU]

2 - Asceticism: Shrines provide +1 Happiness in Cities with 3 followers
4 - Cathedrals: Use Faith to purchase Cathedrals (+1 Faith, +3 Culture, +1 Happiness, Artist Specialist slot)
2 - Choral Music: Temples provide +2 Culture in Cities with 5 followers
5 - Divine Inspiration: Each World Wonder provides +2 Faith in city
4 - Feed the World: Shrines and Temples provide +1 Food each in city
1 - Guruship: +2 Production if city has a Specialist
3 - Holy Warriors: Use Faith to purchase pre-Industrial land units
1 - Liturgical Drama: Amphitheaters provide +1 Faith in cities with 3 followers
2 - Monasteries: Use Faith to purchase Monasteries (+2 Faith, +2 Culture, more with Wine or Incense)
4 - Mosques: Use Faith to purchase Mosques (+3 Faith, +2 Culture, +1 Happiness)
4 - Pagodas: Use Faith to purchase Pagodas (+2 Faith, +2 Culture, +2 Happiness)
2 - Peace Gardens: Gardens provide +2 Happiness in city
1 - Religious Art: Hermitage provides +8 Culture in city
3 - Religious Center: Temples provide +2 Happiness in cities with 5 followers
5 - Religious Community: +1% Production for each follower (max +15%)
4 - Swords into Plowshares: 15% faster Growth rate for city if not at war

I actually like Divine Inspiration because if you control a lot of wonders, then you will have very good faith production to buy Great People in the Industrial Age onward. Religious Community is a must because it speeds up EVERYTHING, most importantly wonders. Really good for tall games.

 

[Streams]

4 - Asceticism: Shrines provide +1 Happiness in Cities with 3 followers
go wide and this will partly solve your happiness problem
2 - Cathedrals: Use Faith to purchase Cathedrals (+1 Faith, +3 Culture, +1 Happiness, Artist Specialist slot)
great in culture games, but not so much in others
1 - Choral Music: Temples provide +2 Culture in Cities with 5 followers
I just never pick it; culture in a wide empire? Because in a tall empire there's the Hermitage.
3 - Divine Inspiration: Each World Wonder provides +2 Faith in city
On higher difficulties there are almost no World Wonders; on lower difficulties it must be great to get this much faith, if the founder belief offered something else
2 - Feed the World: Shrines and Temples provide +1 Food each in city
Too little in the long run but the alternatives...
2 - Guruship: +2 Production if city has a Specialist
Decent alternative if the goodies already left the building...
3 - Holy Warriors: Use Faith to purchase pre-Industrial land units
Makes for a massive army early on when coupled with lots of faith
0 - Liturgical Drama: Amphitheaters provide +1 Faith in cities with 3 followers
Why on Civ 5's Earth?
2 - Monasteries: Use Faith to purchase Monasteries (+2 Faith, +2 Culture, more with Wine or Incense)
Very conditional building; it's fantastic in the right circumstance though
2 - Mosques: Use Faith to purchase Mosques (+3 Faith, +2 Culture, +1 Happiness)
It's nice and all, but... can I have the one that's more balanced?
3 - Pagodas: Use Faith to purchase Pagodas (+2 Faith, +2 Culture, +2 Happiness)
Yes, this one... but what can I do with all those puppets?
1 - Peace Gardens: Gardens provide +2 Happiness in city
Where there's a Garden, there's no happiness problem
2 - Religious Art: Hermitage provides +8 Culture in city
Great in culture games; that's it
4 - Religious Center: Temples provide +2 Happiness in cities with 5 followers
Solves part of a wide empires' happiness problem
4 - Religious Community: +1% Production for each follower (max +15%)
Great alternative to everything else, or if not culture
2 - Swords into Plowshares: 15% faster Growth rate for city if not at war
It's not that bad actually, but better be safe than sorry - comes in handy in science games

 

[smileyy90210]

Hm. I tend to play peaceful -- maybe that's why I like Swords Into Plowshares so much?

 

[Tsoate]

Faith is useful for a cultural victory.

 

[Galgus]

2 - Asceticism: Shrines provide +1 Happiness in Cities with 3 followers
5 - Cathedrals: Use Faith to purchase Cathedrals (+1 Faith, +3 Culture, +1 Happiness, Artist Specialist slot)
2 - Choral Music: Temples provide +2 Culture in Cities with 5 followers
4 - Divine Inspiration: Each World Wonder provides +2 Faith in city
5 - Feed the World: Shrines and Temples provide +1 Food each in city
3 - Guruship: +2 Production if city has a Specialist
4 - Holy Warriors: Use Faith to purchase pre-Industrial land units
0 - Liturgical Drama: Amphitheaters provide +1 Faith in cities with 3 followers
2 - Monasteries: Use Faith to purchase Monasteries (+2 Faith, +2 Culture, more with Wine or Incense)
4 - Mosques: Use Faith to purchase Mosques (+3 Faith, +2 Culture, +1 Happiness)
5 - Pagodas: Use Faith to purchase Pagodas (+2 Faith, +2 Culture, +2 Happiness)
1 - Peace Gardens: Gardens provide +2 Happiness in city
4 - Religious Art: Hermitage provides +8 Culture in city
3 - Religious Center: Temples provide +2 Happiness in cities with 5 followers
4 - Religious Community: +1% Production for each follower (max +15%)
5 - Swords into Plowshares: 15% faster Growth rate for city if not at war

I love the faith buildings, and though Mosques are a bit weaker than the others I'll happilly take them as a replacement.

(Unless I'm Persia, in which case I will not be amused about missing Pagodas.)

If I'm really going for a population boom, Swords to Plowshares is amazing with the Temple of Artemis.

(And growing the cities of other populations helps per population founders out.)

I must not be as much of a wide or warmongering player as most, because Aeseticism seems really unappealing to me when I could take a faith building belief.

 

[blackcatatonic]

Hmm. I almost never choose SIP because it strikes me as a belief wasted if you can't maintain peace for most of the game...

To those who seem to favour it so much: if you know you're going to be at war for a significant portion of the game, is it still worth it?

(ETA: I'm asking this with a mind to my current Babylon science game. I'm doing the Tradition-4-cities thing. I had Fertility Rites as my pantheon and it's going to be time to enhance soon... I'm thinking of SIP for uber-growth, but I've already been DOWed by Cathy and Ramesses, and can't seem to resolve either war as quickly as I had hoped - so should I still go for it? I'd say I've been at war for about half the game so far - it's turn 120ish - and with Oda as my other neighbour, I'm worried that if I pick SIP I'll never get much use out of it.)

 

[Galgus]

I only grab it as a Peacemonger, which is what I usually am.

If your army is strong enough, enemies will start becoming too scared to go to war with you.

(Albeit my perspective is from Marathon mode, where wars take fewer turns proportionally to construction and research.)

 

[smileyy90210]

Hmm. I almost never choose SIP because it strikes me as a belief wasted if you can't maintain peace for most of the game...

To those who seem to favour it so much: if you know you're going to be at war for a significant portion of the game, is it still worth it?

I'd probably take Religious Community at that point.