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[R&F] Rate the Governments

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by sonicandfffan, Feb 12, 2018.

  1. sonicandfffan

    sonicandfffan Warlord

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    I did a lot of these topics for Civ5, with the format inspired by kaspergm. There are a lot more variable options in Civ6 in my opinion and I find this makes it a harder game to get into. These topics were a good insight for me into what works well and what is harder to make work, as such I thought I'd bring them back.

    I'll try to keep a few topics up at a time, but I thought I'd start with one of the easier decisions in the game - Governments

    I'd ask you to put your vote before the name of each government, like this:
    5
    - Chiefdom [1 military, 1 economic, 0 diplomatic, 0 wildcard] - No bonus - No legacy bonus

    The voting range runs from 0 to 10 where 5 is average. Give votes between 0 and 10, where 0 is worst and 10 is best, like this:

    10 = Pretty much required
    9 = Better than extremely good
    8 = Extremely good
    7 = Good
    6 = Above par
    5 = Average
    4 = Below par
    3 = Poor
    2 = Extremely Poor
    1 = Worse than useless
    0 = Never use ever.

    When voting, take into account both the distribution of policy slots of the government (note every government in an era has the same number of overall slots), its location on the tree and the power of its bonus. From what I understand, legacy bonuses are no longer in effect in Rise and Fall, instead you get a wildcard policy which mimics the effect of the government.

    Also of course, how well it suites your playing style or personal likes or dislikes also should influence your vote. Also keep in mind that governments useful for a cultural victory might not be as useful for a domination victory. How you weight the different things is subjective obviously. I'll try to make some statistics when people have put in some votes to see how things distribute. Here are the list of governments:

    Classical
    _ - Autocracy : [2 military, 1 economic, 0 diplomatic, 0 wildcard]: +1 to all yields for each palace/government building, 10% bonus to wonder production
    _ - Classical Republic: [0 military, 2 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: All cities with a district get +1 house and +1 amenity, +15% great people points
    _ - Oligarchy: [1 military, 1 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: All melee units gain +4 strength, 20% bonus experience for units

    Medieval
    _ - Merchant Republic: [1 military, 2 economic, 1 diplomatic, 2 wildcard]: +10% gold in all cities with an established governor, +15% production towards districts
    _ - Monarchy: [3 military, 1 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: +1 housing per level of walls, +50% influence points
    _ - Theocracy: [2 military, 2 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: +5 strength for religious units in religious combat, +0.5 faith per citizen for cities with governors, 15% discount on faith purchases

    Modern
    _ - Communism: [3 military, 3 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: +0.4 production per citizen for cities with governors, +10% production
    _ - Democracy: [1 military, 3 economic, 2 diplomatic, 2 wildcard]: +2 production, +1 housing per district, 25% discount on gold purchases
    _ - Fascism: [4 military, 1 economic, 1 diplomatic, 2 wildcard]: All units +4 combat strength, war weariness reduced by 15%, +20% production towards units
     
  2. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    I never use autocracy, no need for 2 military slots. Merchant republic and communism are bad jokes now.
     
  3. TomKQT

    TomKQT Prince

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    Before R&F I had really very little flexibility in this, my choices were almost always the same, either:
    Classical Republic -> Merchant Republic -> Democracy
    Or if I researched earlier Monarchy, then it was:
    Classical Republic -> Monarchy -> Merchant Republic -> Democracy

    Only really rarely I picked other governments, because even when going militaristic, I felt that more economic and diplomatic slots give me more advantages than more militaristic ones (battle against the AI isn't so hard anyway, and there is not so many usefull militaristic cards).

    Now with R&F, I don't know yet, because some of my favorite governments seems a bit weaker as far as the bonuses are concerned...
     
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  4. pgm123

    pgm123 Emperor

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    I used to do Autocracy into Oligarchy (build all my units and then switch to get the combat bonus). I'm not sure now. On the one hand, the loyalty card is useful for conquest. On the other hand, oligarchy and classical republic both provide good legacy cards. Autocracy seems optimized for a centralized government based around the palace.

    I'll say Autocracy is a 4. Oligarchy is an 8 (was 7). Classical Republic is a 9.
    Monarchy is a 4. Merchant Republic is 6-ish. Theocracy is 5. (Given the era)
    All the modern ones are about a 6.
     
  5. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    Autocracy is probably the best 1st tier government, but you shouldn't stay with it all the way until your 2nd tier. You can use it to pump out settlers and/or units and infrastructure in your first city. Then, if you plan on conquering extensively, you should convert to Oligarchy or if you've made a bunch of cities and plan to be peaceful, go for Classical Republic.

    I still haven't sorted out which 2nd tier government is best. Faith has more situationally diverse uses, but Theocracy still seems most geared for pursuing a Religious Victory. Monarchy is good for fighting and suzeraining city-states. Merchant Republic is generally good for anything else, since it helps you build districts and gives you more Wildcard slots for using legacy or great person points cards. I've generally been going Theocracy into Merchant Republic.

    I dislike the Domination Victory, so Fascism is not my thing. The choice between Democracy and Communism depends on how many governors and cities you have. If you have fewer, larger cities and more governors, go Communism. If you have more, smaller cities and fewer governors, go Democracy. But it's not a bad idea to do one then the other to have both Legacy cards at your disposal.
     
  6. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    Is that how it works? I admit I've only played through one game and kept the same government until a higher tier one became available.
     
  7. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Emperor

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    In my few R&F games, I acted as follows...
    I usually start autocracy just to get its legacy card, which seems better than the other two. The exception being if I'm going domination; then I get the oligarchy legacy card. After I get them I switch to classical republic, which has a mediocre card, but a good minor bonus and the best slot distribution.
    For the middle governments I pretty much only want merchant republic. I often research monarchy first, but I stay in classical republic until I get merchant republic. The exception being my one religious game which obviously took theocracy. I haven't tried a cultural game yet... I may take theocracy for that too so I can buy cheap naturalists.
    I have won all my games before getting the modern era governments (two through science, one through religion, one through domination), but judging from the bonuses I would probably do what I did before R&F and only ever use democracy, unless it's domination (but I've never had a domination game last long enough for me to get these lategame governments anyway)
     
  8. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Emperor

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    Wait, you can get more than one legacy card per tier?

    I thought you get the one per government which was in effect when you finish the plaza building of that tier, and you're limited to that.
     
  9. Aurelesk

    Aurelesk Warlord

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    Autocracy is a good value in the early game, allowing to have +1 in all yields in the Capital is fairly strong. But I don't like it for reasons:
    • I want to go for +2 with the Gouvernment Plaza's building, but building it will unlock the Autocracy's legacy card.
    • Autocracy's legacy card isn't worth it in the late game, contrary to the other two.
    • If I want to use +2 but have an other legacy bonus, I will going to face Anarchy for going Autocracy (+1 yield) → CR/Oligarchy (unlock the good legacy) → Autocracy (+2 yield) but Anarchy → CR (if empire lack Amenity but have districts) / Oligarchy (early warfare) but other Anarchy.
    • They're two military slots but I want more economic's one for Production toward Settlers or Builders, and I don't want to fall behind in the matter of city-state envoys.
    So, Autocracy is a good in the first 10 turns then I switch to one of the others two, CR if i'm in settling/building path with no immediat threat and space to settle, and Oligarchy otherwise to conquer the surrounding.

    Double Oligarchy's legacy is really powerful: +8 CS for contact units (except scout) act almost as doubling the power of your army, and so does the double CR's legacy: +2 Amenity/Housing per cities with districts, meaning you just don't have to worry about luxury for cities with 6 Population or less.


    Communism's legacy <<<<<<<< Democracy's legacy.
    A city with 3 districts with the Democracy's legacy will have +6 Production and +3 Housing. That's really good and I don't need a Governor to gain it. Having the same amount of Production with the Communism's legacy, I will need 6 ÷ 0,4 = 15 Populations in a city that need a Governor but will not have the 3 Housing. Plus, a city with 15 Population can have up to 5 districts, so +10 Production and +5 Housing with Democracy legacy. What the point of the Communism's legacy?

    Of course, if you want your core cities to have as much production as possible, you need Communism with established governor, but you have to slot the Democracy's legacy: more Population and more Production.

    In fact, I suspect that both have been mix up and must be the other way: Democracy should need a Governor and Communism not. Maybe change it the other way to 0,5 Production/Population for Democracy and Communism 2 Production and 1 Housing per districts in cities with governor.

    Right now and for me, Communism is underwhelming, Democracy is much better for me because you have Housing, discount and more overall Production than Communism. Plus I tend to fill mostly Diplomatic card in the late game, so Communism allowing to have 1D+1W is really annoying for me for just +2 military slot that I will fill by default choice policies.
     
  10. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Classical
    10 - Autocracy : [2 military, 1 economic, 0 diplomatic, 0 wildcard]: +1 to all yields for each palace/government building, 10% bonus to wonder production
    5 - Classical Republic: [0 military, 2 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: All cities with a district get +1 house and +1 amenity, +15% great people points
    5 - Oligarchy: [1 military, 1 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: All melee units gain +4 strength, 20% bonus experience for units

    Medieval
    7 - Merchant Republic: [1 military, 2 economic, 1 diplomatic, 2 wildcard]: +10% gold in all cities with an established governor, +15% production towards districts
    0(vanilla 10) - Monarchy: [3 military, 1 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: +1 housing per level of walls, +50% influence points
    6 - Theocracy: [2 military, 2 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: +5 strength for religious units in religious combat, +0.5 faith per citizen for cities with governors, 15% discount on faith purchases

    Modern
    5 - Communism: [3 military, 3 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: +0.4 production per citizen for cities with governors, +10% production
    7 - Democracy: [1 military, 3 economic, 2 diplomatic, 2 wildcard]: +2 production, +1 housing per district, 25% discount on gold purchases
    0 - Fascism: [4 military, 1 economic, 1 diplomatic, 2 wildcard]: All units +4 combat strength, war weariness reduced by 15%, +20% production towards units
     
  11. fodazd

    fodazd Chieftain

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    Classical:
    4 - Autocracy: I usually don't need 2 military slots this early. +1 to all yields is good, but not that great compared to the other two.
    6 - Classical Republic: Economic slots are good, and +1 Amenity +1 Housing is a good legacy. Also helps with early GPs a bit.
    6 - Oligarchy: +4 Strength is the best legacy for any game where you want to warmonger.

    Medieval:
    7 - Merchant Republic: The best Policy-Distribution of the Tier 2 Governments. Other bonuses are not that relevant.
    3 - Monarchy: The worst Policy-Distribution of the Tier 2 Governments. Also the worst bonuses of the Tier 2 Governments. Only advantage is that it unlocks early.
    6 - Theocracy: This is what you want if you go for religion. Otherwise, Merchant Republic is better.

    Modern:
    2 - Communism: Lack of Diplomatic and Wildcard Slots is very bad, especially now that legacy cards and the alliance card are a thing. Bonus is also weak compared to Democracy.
    9 - Democracy: Best Policy Distribution of the Tier 3 Governments, best bonuses of the Tier 3 Governments.
    3 - Fascism: Nobody needs 4 military slots. +4 Strength can *maybe* be useful if you want to go for domination. Otherwise, Democracy is just better.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  12. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Classical
    9 - Autocracy : [2 military, 1 economic, 0 diplomatic, 0 wildcard]: +1 to all yields for each palace/government building, 10% bonus to wonder production
    6 - Classical Republic: [0 military, 2 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: All cities with a district get +1 house and +1 amenity, +15% great people points
    5 - Oligarchy: [1 military, 1 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: All melee units gain +4 strength, 20% bonus experience for units

    Medieval
    7 - Merchant Republic: [1 military, 2 economic, 1 diplomatic, 2 wildcard]: +10% gold in all cities with an established governor, +15% production towards districts
    4 - Monarchy: [3 military, 1 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: +1 housing per level of walls, +50% influence points
    6 - Theocracy: [2 military, 2 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: +5 strength for religious units in religious combat, +0.5 faith per citizen for cities with governors, 15% discount on faith purchases

    Modern
    5- Communism: [3 military, 3 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: +0.4 production per citizen for cities with governors, +10% production
    10 - Democracy: [1 military, 3 economic, 2 diplomatic, 2 wildcard]: +2 production, +1 housing per district, 25% discount on gold purchases
    1- Fascism: [4 military, 1 economic, 1 diplomatic, 2 wildcard]: All units +4 combat strength, war weariness reduced by 15%, +20% production towards units

    Classical Republic is closer to a 8 for America, Greece (extra wildcard can compensate for lack of military), and maybe Aztec/Sumeria.who may not need the red card.

    Fascism is bad because if you need those bonuses, you've probably screwed up.
     
  13. NegativeZero

    NegativeZero Warlord

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    At a glance:

    Classical
    8 - Autocracy : [2 military, 1 economic, 0 diplomatic, 1* wildcard]: +1 to all yields for each palace/government building, 10% bonus to wonder production
    5 - Classical Republic: [0 military, 2 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: All cities with a district get +1 house and +1 amenity, +15% great people points
    8 - Oligarchy: [1 military, 1 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: All melee units gain +4 strength, 20% bonus experience for units

    Medieval
    7 - Merchant Republic: [1 military, 2 economic, 1 diplomatic, 2 wildcard]: +10% gold in all cities with an established governor, +15% production towards districts
    4 - Monarchy: [3 military, 1 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: +1 housing per level of walls, +50% influence points
    6 - Theocracy: [2 military, 2 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: +5 strength for religious units in religious combat, +0.5 faith per citizen for cities with governors, 15% discount on faith purchases

    Modern
    6 - Communism: [3 military, 3 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: +0.4 production per citizen for cities with governors, +10% production
    8 - Democracy: [1 military, 3 economic, 2 diplomatic, 2 wildcard]: +2 production, +1 housing per district, 25% discount on gold purchases
    3 - Fascism: [4 military, 1 economic, 1 diplomatic, 2 wildcard]: All units +4 combat strength, war weariness reduced by 15%, +20% production towards units

    Notes:
    Autocracy is really good for Mounted UU Civs, wonder builders, and rapid expansion. The palace & 1st gov building each provide +12 total yields when stacked w/ legacy policy which really accelerates the early game in all areas.
    Although its legacy policy is much less useful later in the game, the policy gives multitudes when it matters the most.

    I find Classical Republic a "Win-More" government as it works well when your ahead, but not much help when catching up. The +15% Gpp, housing, and amenities are nice if your not in danger of losing those cities and looking to continue booming economy.The legacy policy is consistently strong throughout the game.

    Oligarchy's +4/+8 combat str to melee, navel melee, and anti-cav is strong which allows sword UUs to be very competitive. Very good if trying to catch up through war or keeping out greedy neighbors.

    Merchant republic.......still good and works well for everyone.

    I find Monarchy's large amount of military policies helpful in R&F as garrisoned units can grant loyalty and amenities. The +50% influence points is great, but there are too few ways to earn influence points to matter.
    The housing bonus and subsequent legacy policy are lack luster. However, players in monarchy can pre-build their desired gov building, switch governments and finish the construction when they get to theocracy/merchant republic to earn the legacy policy in less time.

    Theocracy is quite good when paired with the GA monumentality dedication (faith/gold purchase civilian units @ 30% discount), Grand Master's Chapel (faith purchase units), and/or Jesuit Education (faith purchase campus/theater buildings). Even without a religion, players can spend their subsequently accumulated faith on tangible benefits.

    edit: typos. burned hand/figure @ work
     
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  14. Gokudo01

    Gokudo01 Emperor

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    I think some people missunderstood : democraty only gives +2 production per city, its only the housing which scales with district

    Communism is better for any tall strategy with 7-8 cities even more if you picked audience chamber , you should be able to reach cities with 20+ citizens when you unlock communism
     
  15. Aurelesk

    Aurelesk Warlord

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    No, it's really +2 Production per districts. Here a screenshot! (in french)

    Democracy and districts.png

    You can get up to +20 Production/cities with all the districts: Campus, Theatre Square, Commercial Hub, Harbor, Encampment, Industrial Zone, Holy Site, Entertainment Complex/Water Park, Aerodrome and Spaceport. +22 with the Government Plaza. You can get double with the legacy: +40 Production and +20 Housing.

    Democracy and districts, double!.png

    That's why I feel that Democracy's legacy is awesome: massive Production without the need of any Governor, but Communism's legacy is underwhelming: the overall gain of Production is lesser. Plus, Democracy have some nice other bonus with Housing and discount.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
  16. Gokudo01

    Gokudo01 Emperor

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    ok so communism feels really underwhelming or democracy crazy overpower. Moreover, the tooltips is bad as fock.

    Ah and it's another proof that firaxis doesn't have any test team.

    There is no situation where communism gives more production than democracy unless you grow 10 without producing any district ....
    and communism requires a governor.
     
  17. Zenstrive

    Zenstrive Ocean King

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    Lately I always go Classical Republic -> Theocracy -> Communism to steamroll everything.
    Maybe I will not change it in R&F because those paths will still lead to powerful faith powered civ that has tons of productions in the end
     
  18. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    Medieval
    7 - Merchant Republic: [1 military, 2 economic, 1 diplomatic, 2 wildcard]: +10% gold in all cities with an established governor, +15% production towards districts
    3 - Monarchy: [3 military, 1 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: +1 housing per level of walls, +50% influence points
    5 - Theocracy: [2 military, 2 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: +5 strength for religious units in religious combat, +0.5 faith per citizen for cities with governors, 15% discount on faith purchases

    Modern
    6 - Communism: [3 military, 3 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard]: +0.4 production per citizen for cities with governors, +10% production
    15 - Democracy: [1 military, 3 economic, 2 diplomatic, 2 wildcard]: +2 production, +1 housing per district, 25% discount on gold purchases
    5 - Fascism: [4 military, 1 economic, 1 diplomatic, 2 wildcard]: All units +4 combat strength, war weariness reduced by 15%, +20% production towards units

    Of the Tier 2- I think theocracy is a good balance of what a T2 government should be in terms of power level. It has solid benefits for religious civs, and a pretty well rounded card distribution. Monarchy is absolute crippled by having 3 military cards. Why? Monarchy is billed as the pro-CS gov't. They should take one of the military slots and convert it to a diplomacy or wildcard slot.
    Merchant Republic has too much power because it has 2 wildcard slots and universally good bonuses. Free gold for governors is okay, but extra production towards districts - which you are always building- is a lot of power. It's just incredibly flexible.

    As for tier 3...
    Fascism, like monarchy, has one too many military cards. They should take one and swap it to wildcard. But the legacy bonus being stack-able is what makes it decent for someone who needs to fight large wars. +8 strength and War department can turn anyone into Shaka and Shaka into Zeus himself. (+8 strength is 138% damage dealt, 62% received against units at parity. This is actually taking your war effort and stretching it out A LOT.)

    Communism, while again having more military cards than it really needs (I would change it to 2-3-1-2) has that rock solid +10% production... but that isn't the legacy bonus. The governor production bonus isn't bad, but it just doesn't mesh with the idea of a wide empire.
    Democracy isn't a 10/10. It's a 15/10.

    I do not understand what they were thinking with the communism and democracy changes. The legacy bonuses should be flipped. Communism was the "wide empire production boost," Democracy was seemingly geared towards smaller & taller empires (see: New Deal card.) But, as others have noted, the democracy per-district bonus is overpowering:

    The marginal District is 3 population. That's 1.2 production per 3 population in up to 7 cities with governors, or you could have 2 production and a housing in all cities. The reason democracy is so good, though, is because you can stack legacy cards with same government bonuses. (I would advocate this gets removed.)
    Now we have 2.4 production per 3 population under communism, but 4 production and two housing under democracy. That means one district supports 2/3 of its pop requirement. Granary+Sewer, therefore, fully supplies 4 democracy districts under this regime. Plus water bonuses, and you can have size 20-30 cities that don't need a neighborhood. It's crazy. Plus you're getting an effective 1.33 hammers per pop!! (With the first district coming at size 1, this tips the scales even further towards democracy.) You don't need many districts for this to beat out the 10% flat boost.

    Here's an easy example: A size 7 city has 3 districts. Democracy gives 12 hammers, communism gives 5.6 (we'll round to 6.) For the 10% boost to make up this deficit, the city needs 54 other production. That's 7.7 hammers per pop. That means all 7 citizens working petra/ruhr desert hills mines, PLUS another 12 from somewhere (IZ presumably.) As the city pop goes up, democracy's advantage only increases. Until you've built all 10 specialty districts, (do neighborhoods count for this?) at which point democracy caps at 40, and communism catches up at 50 population. It's that absurd. And again, you aren't limited to 7 cities like communism.

    This is on top of having 1-3-2-2 card distribution, which is about as good as it gets for flexibility and power.

    With the addition of dark age policies and legacy cards, which can only go in wildcard slots, governments with more wildcards have a big increase in available options- and thus flexibility. I really hope they address legacy effects and cards soon.
     
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  19. Aurelesk

    Aurelesk Warlord

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    A city can manage to have some flat Production bonus with Industrial Zone (up to 12 with double adjacency), Workshop (2), Factory (3), Power Plant (4), Shipyard (up to 14 with double adjacency), Barracks (1), Armory (2), Military Academy (3), Meeting House (2), Hangar (2), and Airport (3). This can go up to 48 Production (let's say 30) , without counting city-state envoys or Trade route. This make the 10% Production bonus from Communism better, and a good value.

    Communism is "bad" because his legacy bonus is not as powerful as Democracy, and because he have too few slot for Diplomatic cards. But, you can manage to have both Communism and Legacy slot, as long as you save the Government Plaza building later in the game. Having both legacy card will give a lot a Production. A 15 Population cities with 5 districts will have 22 Production and 10% under Communism, and 26 Production under Democracy.

    I want the card distribution somewhat changed to make each government more balanced:
    Monarchy: 1 Military slot → 1 Diplomatic, so 2M, 1E, 2D and 1W, making it less hard to use and be more city-state friendly.
    Merchant Republic: 1 Wildcard slot → 1 Diplomatic, so 1M, 2E, 2D and 1W, because it was the only tiers 2 with 2 wildcard, making the other two less competitive.
    Communism: 1 Military slot → 1 Wildcard, so 2M, 3E, 1D and 2W, because it was the only tiers 3 government with 1 wildcard, making the other two too competitive.
    Democracy: 1 Economic slot → 1 Diplomatic, so 1M, 2E, 3D, and 2W, making Communism the best at Economic.
    Fascism: 1 Military slot → 1 Diplomatic, so 3M, 1E, 2D, and 2W, making it more balanced.

    Question: a city with an Industrial Zone can have the bonus from an other Industrial Zone?
     
  20. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    Normally, no. However, if you place governor Magnus with the "vertical integration" promotion in a city, it will get the production boost from every factory & power plant it is in range of. Depending on how you organize your cities, that can be an extra 5-6 IZs in range, which is 30-40 extra production. More if you get James Watt, Nikola Tesla, combining either of them with the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, or have suzerainty of Toronto. Then you can be getting ~60-80 extra production from that ability.
    Regardless, it's very powerful anywhere if you build a lot of IZs in your cities.
     

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