[LP] Rating the Leader Pass Leaders

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

I hear ya but Basil had that both Taxis and the option to pick Crusde before- and not exactly a lot of folks dying to play him. What's the difference?

A metric crapton of super early culture is the difference. It allows you to play whatever VC you want without risk, instead of being pigeonholed into domination - which she still does better than almost every other civ out there.

 

[Kotofei]

Same as above, she isnt OP at all.

Think of it this way: As long as you don't spawn on a continental divide, getting the extra 10% yields is essentially automatic. It directly reduces the AI's relative yield bonuses. It straight-up reduces the difficulty level with no action required by the player.

Throw in the bonuses from relics/sculptures, and that excellent unique neighborhood, and she can absolutely explode in the mid-game.

 

[steveg700]

Most of the pass leaders are pretty boring. Kind of lacking in inspired or deep gameplay. Too heavy a concentration on culture bonuses.

Theodora was good.

Cleopatra is pretty map-dependent. Had games where her ability basically did nothing.

Finished a game with Sundiata this morning. The AI doesn't do anything with trade routes, so whenever the player goes heavy on trade they are basically working an exploit the AI isn't able to contend with.

Yongle, yeah, he be broken. Too good.

Qin I enjoyed, as I don't generally build lots of troops on my own.

The rest seem boring, heavy-handed, devoid of novelty.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Think of it this way: As long as you don't spawn on a continental divide, getting the extra 10% yields is essentially automatic. It directly reduces the AI's relative yield bonuses. It straight-up reduces the difficulty level with no action required by the player.

Throw in the bonuses from relics/sculptures, and that excellent unique neighborhood, and she can absolutely explode in the mid-game.

That is not anywhere close to being overpowered though.
I'm not saying its a bad bonus, but its absolutely nowhere near "OP".
The problem with this ability is that it is a very slight increase in all yields, especially early for the early game where you want these sorts of abiltities to matter.
The early game is defined by the player being behind the AI in every way (assuming Deity level play), and there isn't much you can do about it as a general vanilla civ.
That is, unless you have some edge that allows you to reach a certain breakpoint fast, and exploit said breakpoint.
A typical example of this is warfare - if you have some very strong early warfare bonus (Gaul or Nubia for rushing purposes for instance), that is a breakpoint that allows you to topple neighbours quickly, that a vanilla civ usually wouldnt be able to (or with a signifcant reduction in both real and opportunity costs).
The breakpoint can also be peaceful, like Russia's Dance of the Aurora+Lavra spam, which lets you get an obscene amount of faith and production front loaded, setting up a strong snowball, much faster than any other civ can.

10% early on on the other hand, is one turn shaved off every 10 turns of production, or 18 turns spent on a civic instead of 20 turns. Or 8,8 gold per turn instead of 8 gold per turn.
Its good, but it doesnt allow for anything extraordinary that a vanilla civ usually wouldnt be able to achieve either.
Most importantly, it doesnt give an immediate edge that can be exploited heavily by the player, which is imo a good criteria for what "OP" would entail.
It does start to become quite valuable in the later game, but at that point you should already be set up, and thus it becomes a "win slightly harder" ability, instead of a game changer.

Which is why I argue that a civ like for instance Theodora's Byzantium is properly OP.
It has one of the absolutely strongest early game synergies from the Taxis ability (shared by Byzantium), and the early culture you can get from the holy sites is absolutely ludicrous.
It allows you to get an ultra fast political philosophy and +100% holy site adjacency going, and catapult you far beyond what even the deity AI can put up with culture wise, right from the start of the game.
The exploit potential for a civ like this is ludicrous, and thus firmly defines it as an OP civ.

 

[Aurelesk]

10% early on on the other hand, is one turn shaved off every 10 turns of production, or 18 turns spent on a civic instead of 20 turns. Or 8,8 gold per turn instead of 8 gold per turn.
Its good, but it doesnt allow for anything extraordinary that a vanilla civ usually wouldnt be able to achieve either.

Does the ability work for Food yields? If so, how does it behave? Is it from excess Food (like Growth) or base Food?

Because a regular 4 Food tiles / 2 excess Food is now suddenly 4.4 Food / 2.4 excess Food if it is base Food. And this is one of the worst case. The more Population, the better it would be.

A 10 Population city with 5 excess Food would have 7.5 excess Food instead, so +50% Growth. That +10% modifier, if it works on base Food, is way better than expected.

If not... Well sorry

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Does the ability work for Food yields? If so, how does it behave? Is it from excess Food (like Growth) or base Food?

Because a regular 4 Food tiles / 2 excess Food is now suddenly 4.4 Food / 2.4 excess Food if it is base Food. And this is one of the worst case. The more Population, the better it would be.

A 10 Population city with 5 excess Food would have 7.5 excess Food instead, so +50% Growth. That +10% modifier, if it works on base Food, is way better than expected.

If not... Well sorry

That would be an interesting effect.
I remember the Aztec's Floating Gardens used to work like this in civ 5 (+25% total food) making them able to surpass all other civs in population.
If so, this bumps the ability up a bit.
Not OP, but interesting in terms of setting up a high population growth niche, which would also synergize well with the Mbanza district.

If anyone wants to test this that would be appreciated.
At least for civ 5, food bonuses like these were rather inconsistent.
The swords into plowshares belief for instance only gave +15% food growth (excess food) iirc, making it rather weak, whereas Floating Gardens gave +25% of total food, which was a rather important distinction.

 

[Kotofei]

That is not anywhere close to being overpowered though.

It's not, until combined with the other 2 abilities. All 3 of them are "MOAR YIELDZ!!!"

And keep in mind, they're easy to use. Consider Hammurabi and Jay, the other "broken" civs IMO. It takes a moderate amount of planning to make them explode. Kongo Sister does it almost automatically. Throw in Voidsingers and its' out of control.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

It's not, until combined with the other 2 abilities. All 3 of them are "MOAR YIELDZ!!!"

And keep in mind, they're easy to use. Consider Hammurabi and Jay, the other "broken" civs IMO. It takes a moderate amount of planning to make them explode. Kongo Sister does it almost automatically. Throw in Voidsingers and its' out of control.

Those abilities are pretty weak though. Relics take way too long to ramp up in any meaningful quantity, and the relative value of those yields are low compared to the cities' innate yields in the middle game.
Relics are OP for Kongo only if you get them from one of the first goody huts, otherwise they are just insignificant fluff essentially.
10% yields on top of fluff is still just fluff, and nowhere near OP.
You are vastly overestimating how strong this leader is imo.

 

[Kotofei]

You are vastly overestimating how strong this leader is imo.

I'm really not.

I decided to fact-check myself and played a game with Ludicrous Barbs and One Era Behind mods. No trouble with a sub-300 science win. The bonuses from relics etc isn't even necessary, it becomes a "win more" feature. Once the unique neighborhood is unlocked, the yields go through the roof and you can do whatever you want.

Next I'll play Two Eras Behind and bring along my good buddy Jim Beam for the ride.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

No trouble with a sub-300 science win. The bonuses from relics etc isn't even necessary, it becomes a "win more" feature. Once the unique neighborhood is unlocked, the yields go through the roof and you can do whatever you want

No offense, while I dont know at what speed you play or what that mod does, a sub 300 SV is not really impressive.

And that's my point, a "win more" trait isnt anything that defines something as OP in my book.
The problem on Deity in particular is the early game, which is the only phase where the game has elements of actually being hard.
Everything after that is easy, you keep doing what you do and you win eventually.
In the early game however, a 10% yield increase isnt a feature that will help you get to that comfy mid game in any meaningful way.
And finally, let's be honest.
You pretty much never get to settle 20+ cities on the same continent, so let's not pretend that she gets 10% yields flat.
Judging by my last games (20-25 cities), about half of those tend to be on my home continent as I usually settle everywhere I can to abuse rapid faith buying of new districts.

 

[Aurelesk]

In the early game however, a 10% yield increase isnt a feature that will help you get to that comfy mid game in any meaningful way.

Well, that 10% is more than a 10% discount on Tech/Civic, Production / Gold / Faith or 10% Growth. By acquiring more Food, it would unlock Population earlier therefore more yields from worked tiles, more districts slot or Settlers. It is +10% to 6 different yields that will interlace, so the result is more than a +10% boost due to snowballing effect.

I do not think that the ability is overpowered. Yet I wanted to do the math just to imagine the effect of that +10% modifier. Let's imagine 2 cities with a city-center of 2 Food / 2 Production, and working only 2/2 tiles as well. If we ignore Housing, Amenities, and anything (no district, building) then after 60 turns:

• A regular city is 5 Population (120 Food gathered), and will have generated 478 Production, 89.5 Science and 53.7 Culture.
• With +10% modifier, that city would end at 6 Population (173 Food gathered, +44%), and will have generated 585 Production (+22%), 113.3 Science (+27%) and 68.0 Culture (+27%). Overall, that +10% translate to a modifier varying from +22% to +44%, with a median value of +27%.

As the game is all about snowballing, those few earlier yields add up: more units or earlier buildings. I don't how much of an edge it translate into, but this demonstrate that +10% is more potent that initially thought (I better watch out for Amenities!). Since Kongo have an affinity for Rainforest and Woods start, they are more likely to have a good start as well.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Well, that 10% is more than a 10% discount on Tech/Civic, Production / Gold / Faith or 10% Growth. By acquiring more Food, it would unlock Population earlier therefore more yields from worked tiles, more districts slot or Settlers. It is +10% to 6 different yields that will interlace, so the result is more than a +10% boost due to snowballing effect.

I do not think that the ability is overpowered. Yet I wanted to do the math just to imagine the effect of that +10% modifier. Let's imagine 2 cities with a city-center of 2 Food / 2 Production, and working only 2/2 tiles as well. If we ignore Housing, Amenities, and anything (no district, building) then after 60 turns:

• A regular city is 5 Population (120 Food gathered), and will have generated 478 Production, 89.5 Science and 53.7 Culture.
• With +10% modifier, that city would end at 6 Population (173 Food gathered, +44%), and will have generated 585 Production (+22%), 113.3 Science (+27%) and 68.0 Culture (+27%). Overall, that +10% translate to a modifier varying from +22% to +44%, with a median value of +27%.

As the game is all about snowballing, those few earlier yields add up: more units or earlier buildings. I don't how much of an edge it translate into, but this demonstrate that +10% is more potent that initially thought (I better watch out for Amenities!). Since Kongo have an affinity for Rainforest and Woods start, they are more likely to have a good start as well.

Absolutely.
As I wrote earlier, the ability becomes quite good if it increases total food (and not just surplus).
Though as you say, it still not an OP ability, even though it becomes very strong especially from the middle game and onwards.

Cheers for doing some napkin math on this, that is always useful information to have in order to visualize it better.
Do note that excluding housing limits is kind of iffy though, since the value of food drops off significantly once you are near the housing cap (which is very easy to reach early on, even when focusing on granaries and farms/aqueducts, which also have opportunity costs as well).).

 

[rocksinmypath]

Mbande's bonus is actually strong enough to overcome housing penalties. Assume:

- All tiles available to the capital yield 2 food. (Not infeasible given Kongo's start bias)
- 1 relic discovered
- Capital starts with 6 housing and 2 amenities (typical for most civs with a fresh water start)

At 5 pop, which is when housing and happiness (-1 amenity) penalties are applied:
- 14 food base (10 from citizens, 2 from city centre, 2 from relic)
- 15.4 after 10% bonus
- 5.4 surplus food after taking away 10 food required by citizens
- 2.7 growth after applying 50% penalty
- 2.295 growth after applying 15% happiness penalty

Under the exact set of circumstances, for a typical civ, ASSUMING NO HOUSING OR HAPPINESS PENALTY:
- 12 food base (10 from citizens, 2 from city centre)
- 2 surplus food
- 2 growth without any penalty

Growth trajectory for Mbande (same condition as before except without any relic):
- Pop 1 > 2 (15 growth required): 7 turns at 2.4 growth per turn (1.8 overflow)
- Pop 2 > 3 (24): 9 turns at 2.6 growth per turn (1.2 overflow)
- Pop 3 > 4 (33): 12 turns at 2.8 growth per turn (1.8 overflow)
- Pop 4 > 5 (44): 15 turns at 3 growth per turn (2.8 overflow)
---- Pop 5 by turn 44

with 1 relic at turn 17 (right after reaching pop 3):
- Pop 3 > 4 (33): 7 turns at 5 growth per turn (3.2 overflow)
- Pop 4 > 5 (44): 8 turns at 5.2 growth per turn (0.8 overflow)
---- Pop 5 by turn 32

Growth trajectory for a typical civ (same conditions as Mbande):
- Pop 1 > 2 (15): 8 turns at 2 growth per turn (1 overflow)
- Pop 2 > 3 (24): 12 turns at 2 growth per turn (1 overflow)
- Pop 3 > 4 (33): 16 turns at 2 growth per turn (0 overflow)
- Pop 4 > 5 (44): 22 turns at 2 growth per turn (0 overflow)
---- Pop 5 by turn 59

Assuming 2 production per tile (+2 from palace), up till turn 59:
- Mbande without relic yields 665 production
- With a relic yields 686 production
- A typical civ yields 568 production

Culture from citizens (0.3 per) and palace (+1) (no Pingala, city states, districts, tile yields, etc.):
- Without relic: 125
- With relic: 127
- Other civ: 106

So, even without a relic, we're looking at ~17% boost to production and culture in the ancient era + maybe about a third of the classical era, and that's just with a very simple look at things without taking into account a lot of the impact of snowballing (e.g. faster scouts, builders, governments, etc.)

Mbande also has a fairly strong, direct bonus toward culture victory. Four extra slots is a big bonus, especially since she can utilize the Reliquaries belief. In an ideal scenario, when going for a relic-based culture victory, you'd build Apadana, Mont St. Michel and St. Basil's Cathedral all in the capital along with a holy site with a temple. For other civs, that's a total 9 relics that can receive a 300% tourism bonus. For her, it's 13. With a 50% penalty from having a different religion, each relic, unboosted, yields 4 tourism per turn. With this assumption, the four extra slots account for 64 extra tourism.

In my experience, this is a fairly significant boost because after Computers and Environmentalism, it's almost 100. Typically, if you're generating 1000 tourism per turn, you're well on your way to culture victory, and having 10% extra tourism might not seem like much, but it can significantly accelerate your victory because of how the tourism mechanism works. Plus, she gets some other indirect bonuses. She should have an easier time building Apadana because of her superior early-game pace. 50% bonus toward key GPPs is also huge.