Razing puppets - New patch broke it

[PrAyTeLLa]

Did a quick search but couldn't find any thread with this sort of topic. I captured some cities near me that were too close together for my liking, but didn't know what the layout was due to FOW. Since I only had 3 cities I wanted a couple of more to give me stuff to do. However I wanted to raze a city that was in-between two others but I had already puppet'ed it. The other two were well placed, with luxuries nearby that I didn't have previously and the other was a capital. Now if I raze it (which means annex first) it shoots up my SP cost and doesn't give it back after its gone.

While I understand people were abusing this pre-patch, couldn't they have only applied it to cities you actually annex and keep or something? Is there any way to do it but I'm just blind? I couldn't see it, but is there the option to raze in the puppet screen? Or do I have to decide to raze at capture it so that it doesnt affect the SP cost.

 

[kaltorak]

You mean that if you conquer a city and raze it, since it anexes it while it's beeing razed, we get a permanent SP cost increase?

If this is true, it's surely a bug.

 

[CTH]

Razing a city should imho allways lower the SP cost, trading away should not but it is not like you could get it back if you raze it

 

[builer680]

This was actually discussed weeks in advance (with many suggested alternatives) dozens of times in several threads leading up to this patch.

I know that Firaxis reads many of these threads. With the amount of "press" this got here on the forums, and the fact that it wasn't changed to one of the many suggested alternatives that accomplished a similar goal (getting rid of the Gift Cities for lower SP's exploit) but allowed for just this circumstance, the only conclusion I can draw is that this was in fact intended.

 

[PrAyTeLLa]

This was actually discussed weeks in advance (with many suggested alternatives) dozens of times in several threads leading up to this patch.

I remember the speculation about it, just couldnt believe they would have done it this way. To be certain, I saved it before the raze, I got whacked the higher SP cost, and then waited the few turns for that to complete to be sure... as expected no reductions. At least if they added the raze option in the puppet screen it would have been fine, which is what I had hoped would happen.

 

[Stilgar08]

Well, can you check the city screen before deciding to raze or annex it? In that case it's not a problem IMO. If not, it is because you just have to "guess" whether its good or bad to keep it, especially when you're unable to checke out the surrounding terrain and buildings present...

 

[PrAyTeLLa]

Well, can you check the city screen before deciding to raze or annex it? In that case it's not a problem IMO. If not, it is because you just have to "guess" whether its good or bad to keep it, especially when you're unable to checke out the surrounding terrain and buildings present...

You can check the city first staight after you capture it, but unless you raze then (i havent tested this) you have no other option but keep as puppet or take the SP hit. However its more for selecting which cities you want to keep, and which ones are just ICS fodder. Sure if you want just puppets may as well keep them all, but I didn't want to keep this city as it was literally surrounded by other cities that had better placement and would cover the gap if i razed the city. I didnt know this until a few turns later as I progressed.

 

[glaivemaster]

I often puppet cities, then go back to raze them later when I take a better city and can't deal with the happiness hit of the smaller, comparatively worthless one. Now I have to predict the future of my entire game whenever I take a city, which is ridiculous. There are much better fixes for a problem that was mostly non-existant anyway (and as far as I'm concerned, if you want your cheesey, exploit SP win, have fun with that it doesn't bother me)

 

[PieceOfMind]

Can you please upload a gamesave? I want to poke around a bit and see for myself, and can't be bothered playing heaps of turns into a game right now.

 

[GenericPlayer]

I have tested straight razing (i.e. raze as soon as I capture) and that does not affect the SP cost. It looks like puppeting and then razing could cause a permanent increase.

I was very vocal in my opposition to this change and have said that it will ruin legitimate gameplay for many people.

 

[troytheface]

"legitimate gameplay"

lol

seems like "legitimate" gameplay would be annex/puppet or raze when you take it

its called responding to long term threats in chess

Capablanca- a chess guy- was noted for percieving threats well in advance

raze it or annex it. armies didn't say "surrender to us and when you are part of our empire and thirty years later we will raze you"

 

[grandad1982]

Hmmm hopefully this is an oversight by the devlopers as this mechanic will decrease alot of peoples enjoyment compared to a stopping a few people exploiting something that isn't even the same action. This is esspecially bad as its not like everyone was being effecting by those who chose to use the exploit.

 

[grandad1982]

@ troytheface

However in real life people are regularly removed from the homes and made to live else where by their goverments, and not just in despotic countries. For example when they were building many of the reserviors in the UK whole communitiers were uprooted and moved on.

 

[troytheface]

communities are not like Helinski

name a major city that was razed by the country that owned/controlled it because they did not like its position on the map

(actually i think there probably is because if its one thing i have found its if it can happen it will happen)

 

[joyous_gard]

If this is true, I'd like a warning screen like "This will permanantly raze your SP cost." Until I know what is happening in the game, there should be some tutorial warning screens.

 

[grandad1982]

Can't think of any cities but I can imagin that the Soviets or the Chinese have indulged in this at some point.

As you say if it can happen it probably has (sadly).

I know that a mass deportation isn't the same thing but they happen all the time and would be on the same scale as removing a cities population.

 

[Fariic]

I have to agree Troy.
It should be working as intended.

Puppies do provide benefits, and are a part of your empire without effecting SP's. Annexing it to raze the city later should effect you. A puppet contributes to trade routes, can provide a little happiness through some policy choices and if they have luxuries.

It's a strategy game.

 

[grandad1982]

^^ puppies do provide benifits!

Sorry.

But how can it drain your culture when its no longer there? Also this just makes annexing a city even more of a bad option that it was before hand.

 

[Fariic]

^^ puppies do provide benifits!

Sorry.

But how can it drain your culture when its no longer there? Also this just makes annexing a city even more of a bad option that it was before hand.

Was typing over an Iphone, you'll have to excuse the spelling errors.


Here's a scenario.

I take three cities early in the game, and puppet them.
One has a luxury and gives me +5 happiness.
I connect all 3 to my trade routes and get another +3 happiness.
I'm making money over time with all three puppets.

Now later in the game all three cities have grown culturally, and the city with the luxury isn't needed to maintain control of that luxury because a neighboring puppet has grown enough that it's able to work that luxury; so I annex the city with the luxury and raze it.

You're swapping one exploit for the ability to exploit something else. A puppetted city has to have some impact on your empire. Razing a puppet 100 turns after you've conquered it should impact you, you shouldn't be able to raze them later in the game so that you don't have to take a hit to your social policies.

"if it's razed it's not a part of my empire"
If you raze a city that was built by you, it's no longer a part of your empire, if you raze a city you annexed 1000 turns in it's no longer a part of your empire. How is that even a valid argument for annexing a puppet and razing it. A puppet WAS a part of your empire.

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

I have no problem with this. You get to view the city first and it's relatively easy to determine if you want it or not. I raze allot of cities in my games actually. I also carefully place cities for strategic and resource reasons.

I don't see the problem here.

It would be an exploit to gain culture from a city or a group of cities for a long time and then raze them later to reduce the SP for the next civic.

The only way around this is to have the game keep a running total for cutlure of the city(ies) in question and force you to lose all of that culture when you raze the city(ies).

Seems to be the right compromise here.