RB27 - Barbarian Tokugawa (No civics Immortal)

[Qwack]

Looks good, Im positive we will get GL here, seems almost impossible to lose it unless someone rushes it with engineer. Agree with ozbenno in that we should attack peter again soon.

Also, we have a couple of AI civs at pleased, ask them for cheap techs as a gift.

 

[ThERat]

Also, we have a couple of AI civs at pleased, ask them for cheap techs as a gift

we can always try that and later ask them for some cash too

That's why I think we should not convert to our religion or convert the whole world.

 

[Atlas]

I have the game and will play and report tonight, 10 turns (more or less) right?

I will try to get something together to take Moscow and maybe shave some turns off of the GL. Anything else need preparing or doing this turnset?

100% research finishes in 370BC, where I leave it. We're at +1gpt at 40%. I think it may be time to finance our research by hitting up Peter again. He apparently has 5 cities!

5 cities! I did not think there was that much space left into which he could expand. Islands or isolated colonies maybe? I don't know. Anyway, this is actually good news (IMHO), we can keep biting off pieces of Peter for a bit more now. I got a feeling he will be keeping up in research for a bit more, even with us beating on him, at the very least he will pump out Great People and possibly lightbulb techs with some of them.

 

[darrelljs]

What's the next tech after CoL? The proposals I believe are:

Drama -> Music -> Monarchy (from GA)

and:

Samurai techs

We also could use Construction since we now have Elephants, and Catapults can help taking out Pete. Currency always helps especially if we can get a Shrine. Speaking of Shrine I never ran a Great Prophet, do we have a spot for one yet?

Darrell

 

[darrelljs]

That's why I think we should not convert to our religion or convert the whole world.

If we can get Monty to convert I would probably do it under the assumption that getting him to Friendly will pay for itself several times over, not just in border security but we can sic him on the bad guys to soften them up. Plus, I don't really fancy wading through the massive stacks an Immortal Monty is going to make, so I would rather secure that border diplomatically. Fred OTOH does not usually build huge armies to my recollection .

Darrell

 

[Ozbenno]

Speaking of Shrine I never ran a Great Prophet, do we have a spot for one yet?

St Petes is building a temple to let us do this.

 

[Atlas]

T0-Checkout resource deals and



Make this clams for fur with Monty. We will either be turning on him next or on Fredrick and either way a higher happy cap now won't hurt. Cyrus and Monty are at war and I think considering the route this game is going to take Monty makes a better friend than Cyrus since he is easy to bribe into wars. The only other outstanding resource deal is for cows (also with Monty), which we don't currently need (lets just acquire our own source ). In fact that northern barb city will have cows once it gets a border expansion. I go around and start some cities growing again and get granaries started in cities at the health limit.

T1- Peter Demands that we convert to Hinduism, I see no reason to do what he says and decline.

T2-Cyrus comes demanding we cancel our deals with Monty, hmm, he is pleased with us, but is even lower in score than we are and I really like Monty's furs.... so no.

T6-Monty Adopts Buddhism, both and and Kublai are buddhist, now those two would be good friends for us in this game. He probably won't stay buddhist though so it does not matter.

T7- Granary finishs in Osaka, I start it on a 20 turn temple, I am not sure, maybe

T10- GL finishes, so that is ten turns and I will leave it there. That cut 1/3 of the time off of finishing CoL.



I will leave the tech trades to the next person, but there just is not that much out there that we want and can trade for.



Obviously we want Monarchy, Construction, Currency and CoL, but nobody will part with those and the techs they will trade, Horsebackriding Meditation, Monothesim and Calendar are just not that helpfull for us. We should think about as a team, but I say aim for CoL, Currency, Monarchy and Construction. I see those as the 4 most important techs for us right now. The Samaurai techs are still a ways off, CoL the CS, then to the bottom to pick up Metal Casting and Machinary- that is a lot of beaker, in the short term I think these 4 techs are very important. Now we could probably extort Meditation from Peter and tech Drama, then lightbulb Philosophy with our first scientist (due in like 20 turns) from the GL- that is one idea. I bet some decent trading opportunities open up in the next 20 turns- we need to take those chance before the AI researches and trades around behind our backs, we have to be in the trading loop.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/64087/RB27_-_Barbarian_Tokugawa_BC-0220.Civ4SavedGame

 

[Atlas]

What's the next tech after CoL? The proposals I believe are:

Drama -> Music -> Monarchy (from GA)

If we do this, but trade for Monarchy we could lightbulb about 60% of Divine Right, which in and of itself is useless for us, but is great trading bait. However I think we should probably stick to economic and military techs for the time being. However (I know another "however"), I would like to pick up Drama and theaters sooner rather than later.

 

[Atlas]

is anybody out there?

 

[darrelljs]

Sorry, Atlas they were very productive turnsets but I wanted a chance to look at the save before posting. That doesn't look too likely this weekend .

Darrell

 

[Qwack]

Turns completed. Mostly some diplomatic maneuvering .

Um Atlas, why are we roading jungles? .



I switched it to build farm. Started off by begging frederick for meditation. Hes such a nice guy and gives it to us



I go to check if hatty is a nice gal, by begging for monotheism. Apparently she isnt nice. Tokugawa shall remember. Cyrus is a nice guy though, he gives us 80 gold. A few people have currency now. In 145 BC, I pull off this deal with Monty:



The gold will help us fuel deficit research. Monty is still missing pottery also, therefore I really dont think its beneficial to befriend him. His economy will go bankrupt very very soon, especially since he has like stacks of 6 units crossing our border every 5 turns . I am actually thinkign him of our next target after Peter. Anyways, same turn I send deer to Frederick for Sugar, which is another +1 happiness. In 115 BC, Code of Laws comes in courtesy of deficit research.



I carefully chose what and who to trade to at this point. I decided its best to trade monty CoL because he will be the weakest soon, giving others tech's like CoL can prove to be bad. So I send him CoL for monarchy and 40 gold. I attempted to trade cyrus 240 gold + code of laws for currency, but he didnt accept. So I get some more gold.. how you ask? Like this




Thats right Peter . Anyways, Cyrus or Hatshepsut still wont give us currency for CoL and 300+ gold, and I dont want to give them literature in the case where we want to pursue Music. I have set research to Construction at this point, for War elephants and catupults, which we can use for our next war against Peter. Kublai Offers me open borders on my last turn, which I declined. I think for now its better to be friends with hatty/frederick/cyrus instead of monty/kublai. They are better to trade with.

Save:

 

[ThERat]

save

Pre-Turn
maybe it's not right, but Peter is of no value, thus get currency from him via alphabet and monarchy

1. 85BC
Khan demands that we convert to heriditary rule which I need to decline
next is Cyrus offering 110gold + mono for literature
not wanting to annoy him, I agree
I also think music is not really what we want, we need to go for contruction/drama and then our own UU techs

we get a temple and start a monastery, also employ a priest for the shrine eventually

2. 70BC
Hinduism spread to Hsung-Nu, good as we need the border expansion there

3. 55BC
Tokyo gets a library and starts a lighthouse
decide to get calendar from fred for 2 techs

4. 40BC
zzz

5. 25BC
Monte demands pottery, such a cheap tech, I give it to him for now

6. 10BC
zzz

7. 5AD
zzz

8. 20AD
construction is in, go for drama first as we can now build up military for the next strike
switch a few cities to phants and cats

9. 35AD
we get a monastery, switch to cat as well
St. Peter is already sourounded by Russian culture, he needs to go sooner rather than later

10. 50AD
borders expanded in Ning Hsia and we should get a workboat there after the granary
4 turns to drama and we just got a GS which can lightbulb philosophy if we wish
(nobody has that tech, so we should surely do that)

since this is the tech situation, we might be able to trade philo for metal on the way to CS and our UU



we also soon have 2 wines connected and might want to trade one of them

 

[ThERat]

by the way, I am really surprised that we are doing very well in the tech game. Besides Khan having feudalism, there is nobody who ran away. Cyrus is small and this will be good for us.

Let's get Peter's remaining cities and then fight the next victim with our samurais

 

[Qwack]

I agree with Lightbulbing Philosophy. It means neither of the other civs will go after it anytime soon, so its alot of trade value in that. I think we should start pumping some elephants/catupults now and go after peter, since our happiness situation is looking pretty decent now.

[edit] Btw, I think we should work the floodplains in Tokyo, and give the plains farm to Hsung-Nu. It will give each city +1 food but -1 hammer, which I think is worth it since our happiness cap is 7-8 now.

 

[Ozbenno]

I agree that Peter's days in this game should be numbered...

 

[Atlas]

Um Atlas, why are we roading jungles?

Yeah, sorry about that, I wanted to farm the tile, but didn't want to pass the game of with like 10 turn worker command already in place, figured a 3 turn worker command would allow you to what you wanted then. I probably should have just given a "clear jungle" command since. That city needs more food, grows very slowly.

 

[darrelljs]

I see it, I'll play tonight. Geez, we are awash in happiness resources, I told you guys we didn't need Drama . I'll be popping Philosophy with the GS for more trade fodder, then heading for Machinery and CS. All the while building Elelphant/Cat stacks for someone else to have fun with . I'll try to squeeze in some half cost Courthouses assuming that hasn't been done already.

I think for now its better to be friends with hatty/frederick/cyrus instead of monty/kublai. They are better to trade with.

On the flip side, none of them really build units like crazy, and they are the biggest threat for space race. Do we really feel like slogging through KK again, it was brutal enough last time on Emperor. And Monty? Even if he stays small and his economy doesn't keep up, he'll still have tons of units. I guess the operative phrase is "for now", but long term how do we see this shaping up? I think Domination again, our traits really call for it, and I think we can probably get it without touching KK.

Darrell

 

[Qwack]

On the flip side, none of them really build units like crazy, and they are the biggest threat for space race. Do we really feel like slogging through KK again, it was brutal enough last time on Emperor. And Monty? Even if he stays small and his economy doesn't keep up, he'll still have tons of units. I guess the operative phrase is "for now", but long term how do we see this shaping up? I think Domination again, our traits really call for it, and I think we can probably get it without touching KK.

Right now frederick and hatty look like they will eventually become tech leaders, no kublai. Its not because Kublai is a bad techer, the alliances are shaping up to be Kublai/monty and fred/cyrus/hatty. What benefit will kublai monty really provide us? We need to keep up by trading and if we trade with kublai and monty we wont be able to keep up with hatty/fred and cyrus. Also unrelated but this is important also, these guys are less likely to backstab us , so atleast we can keep our army focused on 1 end. If we make them our enemies and kublai our friend, there is a risk of being attacked from anyone.. and getting attacked when your not prepared on immortal level can prove disastrous.. We will probably win the game before space race becomes a concern anyway I think. ANother thing is that we are already -4 with Kublai I think, so it wont be easy to get him back to friendly relations without the civics bonus.

I dont think we need to go against kublai eventually if we dont want do, we can just backstab our allies , but I also have a feeling he wont be as powerful as last game.

 

[darrelljs]

Qwack, I hope you are right, you've half convinced me. I don't want anything to do with KK (more on that later) and I am afraid if we don't slow him down we are in trouble. I did lightbulb Philosophy. There were no good trades available and I played my turns until something became available:



I think we would make this trade the same turn:



I was also forced to turn down some beggars:



And:



I was very tempted to toss Hatty her bone, but at the time Drama was still a monopoly. A few turns later almost everyone had it . I did some begging (and threatening in Peter's case) of my own, but couldn't bum any cash, so after Drama came in we are with Civil Service due in 22 turns at 50% research. We need some cash for deficit research, because KK already has it



He has Music too. He might not be runaway, but he is damn close and he is Annoyed with us. Dangerous times. We've got to get our UU soon, but we are still three techs away (two if we trade for Metal Casting) but we need cash to fuel our research for Civil Service and Machinery.

Darrell

P.S. Several cities had stuff in queue and I didn't realize it until I stopped playing, so if there are buildings up, the next player should switch them to units (or a Courthouse!). Sorry about that .

 

[Ozbenno]

OK got it for playing tomorrow.

Thoughts on Fred and Monty bashing it out? Probably a good thing but the price is heavy. The trade with Cyrus is a good one so we'll go with that.

When should we go after Peter again? I think we should now.