RB29d - Cultural Extermination
- Thread starter uberfish
- Start date
pindicator
Emperor
Agree on CoL.
We may need to break up the AI religious bloc. That may happen on its own, or it may require us to throw different missionaries at different AI towns. But aggressive, unified neighbors will make this harder.
We may need to break up the AI religious bloc. That may happen on its own, or it may require us to throw different missionaries at different AI towns. But aggressive, unified neighbors will make this harder.
OK. What turn number is it?? 555 remaining.
925 BC (0)
Shift a tile at Moscow and shave a turn off Pottery without delaying the Settler. St. Pete's works for military for now, but it really could work better as Settler/Worker source. Once the (an) Ivory is hooked up I'll let it grow to size 5 and net some more trade.
850 BC (5)
We get Pottery, Rosey asks for OBs, which are declined, of course. Our next tech is the newly-discounted Writing, due in 10.
805 BC (8)
With the Settler in Moscow and the Axe in St. Pete completing on this turn, revolt us into Slavery. There is no reason not be running this civic, as we will absolutely need it to defend ourselves.
760 BC (11)
Rosey is giving me pause with an Axe-Settler pair wandering around at our borders. It appears he intends to settle an absolute garbage city that will be pressured by Moscow when the borders next pop, but ...
Double-check and settle red dot
715 BC (14)
Writing in, start us on Alphabet. CoL will come from the Oracle, Theology from the 1st Great Propet. We don't need IW, Archery, or HBR. Monarchy is a possibility but I don't think we'll be growing our cities too large yet, so it can wait.
655 BC (18)
St. Petersburg finishes an Axe for Reddotstov after having built one for Novgorod. St. Pete starts a worker to join the one building in Moscow. The other pair are roading between Novgorod and Reddotstov (maybe we don't want to do that, but I think Confucianism will inevitably found there even if it catches one of our other three religions). I think we do want the 4 workers so we can cottage Moscow and connect it to the rest of our empire. After 4 workers we should be in a good position to build another couple of cities.
625 BC (20)
Stop here.
St. Pete has a border pop and we begin to pressure two French cities. In one turn, Lyon dropped to 90% French so we may be able to flip it fairly soon. Paris dropped to 99%, the beginning of a long process.
The Oracle is due in 7 and may be whippable in 3. Depends on the level of paranoia of the next player. I've been declining Open Borders when folks have asked. Not sure that's always the best answer. At this point we've culturally connected all of our 4 cities, so all the OBs will do is allow other civs to found really wayward cities that could easily be flipped. Best to think about it on a case-by-case basis.
925 BC (0)
Shift a tile at Moscow and shave a turn off Pottery without delaying the Settler. St. Pete's works for military for now, but it really could work better as Settler/Worker source. Once the (an) Ivory is hooked up I'll let it grow to size 5 and net some more trade.
850 BC (5)
We get Pottery, Rosey asks for OBs, which are declined, of course. Our next tech is the newly-discounted Writing, due in 10.
805 BC (8)
With the Settler in Moscow and the Axe in St. Pete completing on this turn, revolt us into Slavery. There is no reason not be running this civic, as we will absolutely need it to defend ourselves.
760 BC (11)
Rosey is giving me pause with an Axe-Settler pair wandering around at our borders. It appears he intends to settle an absolute garbage city that will be pressured by Moscow when the borders next pop, but ...
Double-check and settle red dot
715 BC (14)
Writing in, start us on Alphabet. CoL will come from the Oracle, Theology from the 1st Great Propet. We don't need IW, Archery, or HBR. Monarchy is a possibility but I don't think we'll be growing our cities too large yet, so it can wait.
655 BC (18)
St. Petersburg finishes an Axe for Reddotstov after having built one for Novgorod. St. Pete starts a worker to join the one building in Moscow. The other pair are roading between Novgorod and Reddotstov (maybe we don't want to do that, but I think Confucianism will inevitably found there even if it catches one of our other three religions). I think we do want the 4 workers so we can cottage Moscow and connect it to the rest of our empire. After 4 workers we should be in a good position to build another couple of cities.
625 BC (20)
Stop here.
St. Pete has a border pop and we begin to pressure two French cities. In one turn, Lyon dropped to 90% French so we may be able to flip it fairly soon. Paris dropped to 99%, the beginning of a long process.
The Oracle is due in 7 and may be whippable in 3. Depends on the level of paranoia of the next player. I've been declining Open Borders when folks have asked. Not sure that's always the best answer. At this point we've culturally connected all of our 4 cities, so all the OBs will do is allow other civs to found really wayward cities that could easily be flipped. Best to think about it on a case-by-case basis.
Where should be settle next? Here's a start to the discussion:
I think our next city or two should ratchet up the pressure on enemy capitals. Pinching Rosey is the trickiest:
This is an ugly city, but we can settle it without OBs and it generates 3rd ring pressure on DC, combined with 3rd ring pressure from Reddotstov.
This is probably the best city we can found, but requires OBs with Rosey:
The city generates 4th-ring pressure on Kyoto and NY. One SE would generate 3rd ring pressure on Kyoto, with nothing at NY; One N puts 3rd-ring pressure on NY and essentially nothing on Kyoto.
This one works well if we found Christianity in it:
Pressures both Paris and Orleans, which puts every French city under attack.
We'll be able to build (at least) two settlers between the founding of Confucianism and Christianity. I would look to build a temple in St. Pete so we can hire a priest and hustle the GP along. At some point after we get our cities connected we'll want to revolt to OR for a little while to cross-pollinate our own religions and open up cultural buildings. Won't have to be in OR for too long since we want to build the monasteries anyway.
I think our next city or two should ratchet up the pressure on enemy capitals. Pinching Rosey is the trickiest:
This is an ugly city, but we can settle it without OBs and it generates 3rd ring pressure on DC, combined with 3rd ring pressure from Reddotstov.
This is probably the best city we can found, but requires OBs with Rosey:
The city generates 4th-ring pressure on Kyoto and NY. One SE would generate 3rd ring pressure on Kyoto, with nothing at NY; One N puts 3rd-ring pressure on NY and essentially nothing on Kyoto.
This one works well if we found Christianity in it:
Pressures both Paris and Orleans, which puts every French city under attack.
We'll be able to build (at least) two settlers between the founding of Confucianism and Christianity. I would look to build a temple in St. Pete so we can hire a priest and hustle the GP along. At some point after we get our cities connected we'll want to revolt to OR for a little while to cross-pollinate our own religions and open up cultural buildings. Won't have to be in OR for too long since we want to build the monasteries anyway.
I decide we need to push for settlers this turnset, to take potential city sites before they disappear. We won't have any before my turns are complete, so I will play the turns quickly and then update our settler map for discussion. Our economy will probably crash when we settle the sites, so I am making a start on cottages too.
Load the save, check micro and city management plans for this set:
Moscow: is working 2 forests, whip both those citizens to finish the granary, excess will finish worker next turn. We will then build a warrior for future military police duty regrowing the city to size 4, then start a settler.
St Pete: switch mine (4h) to Oasis (3h3c) When we finish the worker, it will chop a temple and micro the city to grow to size 6 and finish temple on same turn by switching mine and ivory as necessary.
Reddotstov: insert granary ahead of axe since we had an axe on the way and are now able to whip the axe under construction there if necessary once the city grows to size 2.
Sign open borders with Roosevelt, as he can't take any useful city sites now.
595 BC (2) - Napoleon builds Pyramids in Paris. Gah! Start building cottages at Moscow and Novgorod in preparation for our expansion
550 BC (5) - Caesar builds Great Lighthouse, Napoleon builds Rheims by the lake to our west
520 BC (7) - we build Oracle. Since the AI had just completed pyramids I didn't feel the need to whip it. Confusion founded in Reddotstov and we will send the missionary to Khan to spread dissension
I think we need 3 settlers quickly, start a settler in Novgorod too
430 BC (13) - Confusion spreads to Karakorum, Genghis converts. Our horses are connected.
St Pete finishes its temple, grows to size 6, and hires a priest. It's unhealthy so I try to trade resources and realise that we can't do that until Moscow is connected up. Oops.
400 BC (15) - End of turnset. Alphabet due in 2, two settlers due in 7, prophet due in 14 giving us a nice choice between shrine and theology (I would probably pick the shrine here actually, with Theatres available soon a Great Artist gives more culture push than a holy city does and we could really use the cash boost)
I guess we'll probably want to research drama next.
Here's the new situation in the west:
Blue has low maintenance and defends these grasslands against AI settling and we can cottage it up. Or we could found at pink and take the sheep as well with deer in 4th ring to the west but we get a load of useless tundra. I also like the purple dot which will pay for itself with gold, attack 3 cities in 4th ring and claim territory near Berlin.
South of that we have another potential site to try and steal resources if we want to antagonize Rome too, probably not as much hurry to found that one, but I prefer it to sticking the city between Paris and Orleans which only claims a banana that we can't use yet.
And in the east I definitely like the McC yellow dot, it's getting slightly crowded in there but yellow might eventually clear some usable land for orange.
Anyway, after we discuss where we want to settle Blid is up next - we're on a 15 turn rotation now.
Load the save, check micro and city management plans for this set:
Moscow: is working 2 forests, whip both those citizens to finish the granary, excess will finish worker next turn. We will then build a warrior for future military police duty regrowing the city to size 4, then start a settler.
St Pete: switch mine (4h) to Oasis (3h3c) When we finish the worker, it will chop a temple and micro the city to grow to size 6 and finish temple on same turn by switching mine and ivory as necessary.
Reddotstov: insert granary ahead of axe since we had an axe on the way and are now able to whip the axe under construction there if necessary once the city grows to size 2.
Sign open borders with Roosevelt, as he can't take any useful city sites now.
595 BC (2) - Napoleon builds Pyramids in Paris. Gah! Start building cottages at Moscow and Novgorod in preparation for our expansion
550 BC (5) - Caesar builds Great Lighthouse, Napoleon builds Rheims by the lake to our west
520 BC (7) - we build Oracle. Since the AI had just completed pyramids I didn't feel the need to whip it. Confusion founded in Reddotstov and we will send the missionary to Khan to spread dissension
I think we need 3 settlers quickly, start a settler in Novgorod too
430 BC (13) - Confusion spreads to Karakorum, Genghis converts. Our horses are connected.
St Pete finishes its temple, grows to size 6, and hires a priest. It's unhealthy so I try to trade resources and realise that we can't do that until Moscow is connected up. Oops.
400 BC (15) - End of turnset. Alphabet due in 2, two settlers due in 7, prophet due in 14 giving us a nice choice between shrine and theology (I would probably pick the shrine here actually, with Theatres available soon a Great Artist gives more culture push than a holy city does and we could really use the cash boost)
I guess we'll probably want to research drama next.
Here's the new situation in the west:
Blue has low maintenance and defends these grasslands against AI settling and we can cottage it up. Or we could found at pink and take the sheep as well with deer in 4th ring to the west but we get a load of useless tundra. I also like the purple dot which will pay for itself with gold, attack 3 cities in 4th ring and claim territory near Berlin.
South of that we have another potential site to try and steal resources if we want to antagonize Rome too, probably not as much hurry to found that one, but I prefer it to sticking the city between Paris and Orleans which only claims a banana that we can't use yet.
And in the east I definitely like the McC yellow dot, it's getting slightly crowded in there but yellow might eventually clear some usable land for orange.
Anyway, after we discuss where we want to settle Blid is up next - we're on a 15 turn rotation now.
Obviously I like the E Yellow as our next city.
With Paris having a Wonder I think we need a 2nd source of pressure. So I'm advocating the W purple dot and a city between Paris and Orleans. These would serve to cut Nappy off from the lands W of our capital (and the better city site of blue dot) unless we granted OBs (or he builds a Settler our of size-1 Rheims). We'll lose this opportunity sooner than expected due to the 3rd expansion of Paris hastened by the Pyramids. Settling these sites would hurt our economy more, but force Nappy to press on Caesar and Biz for us.
Since we're going for conquest we have to get pressure on capitals anyway we can, as soon as we can. For domination we could worry more about founding good cities for us, for conquest we have to settle bad cities for our opponents.
On Christianity vs. Shrine: Probably the biggest selling point to not popping the religion is that a Theater + Artist generates more cpt than a Holy City, it only requires 2 food rather than a GP. I'd assume we would build the Jewish shrine so that puts even more pressure on Kyoto, and we could probably generate a 2nd Prophet for Christianity by running Priests in Novgorod (in addition to the Oracle GPP). Back-of-the-envelope is that if we have 6 extra food at Novgorod we can pop Christianity with the 2nd Prophet within ... 22 turns @ 2 GPP ... then 1 GPP for the Shrine ... 3 Priests @ 3 GPP ... 22 turns after the Shrine is built (or 36 turns from now). I'm optimistic the religion will still be available. So I agree with the Jewish Shrine, and hope to pop Christianity and multiple techs through trade with the next Prophet.
Agree Drama next. Next player also gets to do some tech trades. We could really use Sailing for a Lighthouse in Novgorod (there's the 3rd Priest) and Moscow. Otherwise I'd be conservative as we don't particularly want to accelerate the tech pace.
With Paris having a Wonder I think we need a 2nd source of pressure. So I'm advocating the W purple dot and a city between Paris and Orleans. These would serve to cut Nappy off from the lands W of our capital (and the better city site of blue dot) unless we granted OBs (or he builds a Settler our of size-1 Rheims). We'll lose this opportunity sooner than expected due to the 3rd expansion of Paris hastened by the Pyramids. Settling these sites would hurt our economy more, but force Nappy to press on Caesar and Biz for us.
Since we're going for conquest we have to get pressure on capitals anyway we can, as soon as we can. For domination we could worry more about founding good cities for us, for conquest we have to settle bad cities for our opponents.
On Christianity vs. Shrine: Probably the biggest selling point to not popping the religion is that a Theater + Artist generates more cpt than a Holy City, it only requires 2 food rather than a GP. I'd assume we would build the Jewish shrine so that puts even more pressure on Kyoto, and we could probably generate a 2nd Prophet for Christianity by running Priests in Novgorod (in addition to the Oracle GPP). Back-of-the-envelope is that if we have 6 extra food at Novgorod we can pop Christianity with the 2nd Prophet within ... 22 turns @ 2 GPP ... then 1 GPP for the Shrine ... 3 Priests @ 3 GPP ... 22 turns after the Shrine is built (or 36 turns from now). I'm optimistic the religion will still be available. So I agree with the Jewish Shrine, and hope to pop Christianity and multiple techs through trade with the next Prophet.
Agree Drama next. Next player also gets to do some tech trades. We could really use Sailing for a Lighthouse in Novgorod (there's the 3rd Priest) and Moscow. Otherwise I'd be conservative as we don't particularly want to accelerate the tech pace.
Got it.
My preferences are for purple and yellow dot. Those are central positions giving us a foot to push the attack later
I was hesitating about third city but T_McC has a point about locking off Nappy and forcing him to settle south. 1 NW of banana puts more pressure on Orelans, 1W of banana is clearly a better site with those grasslands and grasshills. I am leaning for 1W, Orelans would fall eventually to the cultural pressure combined with pruple dot one
Another round of military buildup is due to put serious garrisons in our outposts. Those cities won't be whippable from day one, especially in the east where it is most crowded
Would play once there's consensus
My preferences are for purple and yellow dot. Those are central positions giving us a foot to push the attack later
I was hesitating about third city but T_McC has a point about locking off Nappy and forcing him to settle south. 1 NW of banana puts more pressure on Orelans, 1W of banana is clearly a better site with those grasslands and grasshills. I am leaning for 1W, Orelans would fall eventually to the cultural pressure combined with pruple dot one
Another round of military buildup is due to put serious garrisons in our outposts. Those cities won't be whippable from day one, especially in the east where it is most crowded
Would play once there's consensus
mostly-harmless
Prince
Wouldn't it be safer to go for christianity first and later worry about the shrines? The economy boost of shrine now, is not that huge with the current religion spread and having an AI (a remote AI even worse) steal christianity from us would be very difficult to tackle culture-wise.
As for the city placement, yellow and purple dot look good.
However, the third city spot just W of the Bananas might be not valid. Unless I am mistaken judging from the french borders there is another french city somewhere south of the Bananas.
mh
As for the city placement, yellow and purple dot look good.
However, the third city spot just W of the Bananas might be not valid. Unless I am mistaken judging from the french borders there is another french city somewhere south of the Bananas.
mh
Hmm, actually there is a 5th french city which has borders visible just south of Paris and it looks like we could hit it with the spot NW of banana too.
I really would like to pick up blue dot for cottaging before the AI puts an annoying city in that area though. The solution is probably to make even more settlers and workers, grab all the sites and cottage up at Moscow/Novgorod/bluedot.
I really would like to pick up blue dot for cottaging before the AI puts an annoying city in that area though. The solution is probably to make even more settlers and workers, grab all the sites and cottage up at Moscow/Novgorod/bluedot.
pindicator
Emperor
Yellow dot in the east gets my vote for our next city. Purple in the west is a great spot as well.
We are going to need multiple cities putting pressure on the AI in order to flip cities, so I like the idea of putting a city between Paris and Orleans as well.
We are going to need multiple cities putting pressure on the AI in order to flip cities, so I like the idea of putting a city between Paris and Orleans as well.
Yellow dot is critical, we need to push towards Karakorum in that direction. This probably sounds weird but I'm actually less worried about flipping Paris than flipping Rome at the end. However I've been convinced NW of banana is worth taking for us.
mostly-harmless
Prince
Not at all weird.
Yep, if we not settle close Rome before it pops to the fourth ring we will have a loooong way to push back borders.
Settlers, settlers, settlers.
Well my reasoning is the shrine is worth 6 gold already which is a lot, and 4 culture, and it's likely to spread some more without us even sending out more missionaries.
Christian holy city is worth 5 culture in a border city which is good, but we can put up theatres+artists now, and we'd actually be better off with a great artist putting out 12 culture.
From the denial perspective Christianity would only be really annoying if it gets founded in some small AI border city, they switch to it and it then blocks a settler site for us so it requires a few things to go wrong. And since we own both prophet wonders I don't think the AI is going to be lightbulbing it in a hurry.
Christian holy city is worth 5 culture in a border city which is good, but we can put up theatres+artists now, and we'd actually be better off with a great artist putting out 12 culture.
From the denial perspective Christianity would only be really annoying if it gets founded in some small AI border city, they switch to it and it then blocks a settler site for us so it requires a few things to go wrong. And since we own both prophet wonders I don't think the AI is going to be lightbulbing it in a hurry.
The Shrine is worth 5-6 gpt immediately (and hopefully a couple of free gpt based on spreading) and the chance to pop another Prophet within about 25 turns. If we don't build the shrine, the next Prophet would be in 60 turns with the only way to speed that up being to spread another religion or two to St. Pete and spend 120 hammers/Temple. So probably 50ish turns at best (which is about the same as if we build a Jewish Temple in Novgorod). It is a gamble, but I think we can get Theology/Christianity with the 2nd Prophet, particularly if we can hold an Alphabet monopoly, as none of our opponents are big on chasing religions.
Having an opponent pop the religion would be tough, but once we have access to Theaters we can fairly easily out-culture a Holy city.
Since Rome(?) built the Great Lighthouse it will have ~340 culture and be generating 8 cpt. At most, we have 52 turns before the 3rd border pop and likely less since Caesar will probably build a Library there soon. I guess we should plan on sending something his way in about 35-40 turns.
lurker's comment:
In my opinion I would go for Cristianity. Reasons are:
If you take religion AI would delay to research it for a long time, so, so long as you do not trade it away you would have a long time to build sistine.
Second reason is religion spread. If one religion with a help of a srine will become dominant it could become dificult to spread war between AI later in game.
In my opinion I would go for Cristianity. Reasons are:
If you take religion AI would delay to research it for a long time, so, so long as you do not trade it away you would have a long time to build sistine.
Second reason is religion spread. If one religion with a help of a srine will become dominant it could become dificult to spread war between AI later in game.
pindicator
Emperor
Oh, good point about Sistine's, Mutineer. I was about to cast my lot in favor of the Shrine, but now I'm a little bit torn. I think it depends on if we can line up another city with Christianity. If we can put one right beside Caesar, and then even convert him to Christian with the missionary, then I would be all for it. But the Shrine definitely has it's benefits as well.
We should certainly be able to line up one of our new-found cities with Christianity, although I wouldn't be confident which. I think we'll have a pair of cities founded by the time we get the Prophet, and not the one by Caesar. It may prove difficult to steer Christianity founding in the one by Caesar without a lot of machinations ...
We also have to be more clear on what we expect our cities to be doing in the next 50-60 turns. Let's see ... Novgorod is fine, it doesn't need worker attention again until we have Monarchy for the Wines. It can provide the Axe for the E yellow dot.
Reddotstov can be a military pump, it can also reach 13 hpt at size 5 with an irrigation and a couple of chops. Not a commerce source right now.
St. Pete is versatile and has enough food to run up to three specialists, if we want to nerf the hammers. It can provide an Axe for the first W city. Not sure where the defender for the 2nd western city is coming from, maybe the Axe in Reddotstov?
I think Moscow builds the 4th settler (if needed) primarily of forest chops for cottages. It can then provide workers when in reaches its happy limit, we can live with a sub-optimal build time from working many cottages. If we build 4 new cities we have to committed to building about 10 military units better than Warriors, so we can have two "real" units in each border city. That pretty well covers Reddotstov, St. Pete, and Novgorod for the next 30 turns.
I don't really see where we would build the Sistine Chapel right now unless we committed Novgorod to it, and either forego the 4th settler or take a gamble militarily. Guess we'll see where we are after the next 15.
Next player should see Lyons drop below 50% French, and Boston get swallowed by our culture. I think we keep both when the revolt, rather than disbanding.
We also have to be more clear on what we expect our cities to be doing in the next 50-60 turns. Let's see ... Novgorod is fine, it doesn't need worker attention again until we have Monarchy for the Wines. It can provide the Axe for the E yellow dot.
Reddotstov can be a military pump, it can also reach 13 hpt at size 5 with an irrigation and a couple of chops. Not a commerce source right now.
St. Pete is versatile and has enough food to run up to three specialists, if we want to nerf the hammers. It can provide an Axe for the first W city. Not sure where the defender for the 2nd western city is coming from, maybe the Axe in Reddotstov?
I think Moscow builds the 4th settler (if needed) primarily of forest chops for cottages. It can then provide workers when in reaches its happy limit, we can live with a sub-optimal build time from working many cottages. If we build 4 new cities we have to committed to building about 10 military units better than Warriors, so we can have two "real" units in each border city. That pretty well covers Reddotstov, St. Pete, and Novgorod for the next 30 turns.
I don't really see where we would build the Sistine Chapel right now unless we committed Novgorod to it, and either forego the 4th settler or take a gamble militarily. Guess we'll see where we are after the next 15.
Next player should see Lyons drop below 50% French, and Boston get swallowed by our culture. I think we keep both when the revolt, rather than disbanding.
