RBC12D - Fall of Rome - Vandals (Demigod)

[akots]

Happy birthday, Bear! And many more glorious victories! I'll come up with a verse later. Please play your 10 turns. Chances I can play today are very small because of RL. However, the Great Council can decide the sequence of managers of our estate.

Re alliance and war to Huns. The problem is that we don't want Franks/Anglo-Sax/anybody else (especially Celts) to attack West Rome/East Rome and to attack us. The only way to do this is make alliance to a third party. Which could have been Sassanids. But now can be Huns. The farther this third party is away, the better since they can do the least damage to us and gain the least VP. It might be difficult to get the 8th city in the current situation. And we are attacking the well-defended low-corruption part of West Rome. Whereas other barabrians, not so honorable as our tribe, prey for an easier target. The only prize worth keeping in Northern Italy is Rome herself and we are not going to get it, so might be better off attacking some more distant cities now. However, all military is focused where it is now and choice is limited.

 

[Gobi Bear]

486 AD: Re-ally with the Anglo-Saxons for our entire treasury plus 15gpt. Hold off with the Franks. Slay the legion east of Milan and move up a migrant, founding "Po River War Camp" on that tile. This is very good … it lets us move half our troops next to Milan and the other half next to Ravenna this turn. Trebuchets also pull up next to each city. Switch Cirta's build to Walls; the Franks are right next door. Move extra defensive troops to the capital. It looks like the Roman HC threat from the woods to the east is gone.

IBT: Hopefully no other cities fall… We lose a Warlord and a Spear to the Byzantines (taking one HC down with us). A Roman legion attacks our stack of Warlords from Milan and loses handily. We see the Franks pull back from Augustum Trev. Probably a Roman city would have fallen if we had added the Franks back to the team.

488 AD: Saldae: Warlord->Walls (Frank pillager adjacent). Sabratha: Migrant->Migrant. Cirta: Walls->Barracks. I check Roman cities … still 6 lost. I will pound on Milan and Ravenna, getting them down to Garrisons. But I won’t take them down unless I am sure I can take down both. Take out about 5 legions from each city, getting rid of all of the Veteran legions in both cities. Lose 2 warlords on the attack on Milan; 1 HC against Ravenna. Ravenna is down to 1 red-lined legion and garrisons (not sure how many). I might be able to take out both cities this turn, but next turn is a lock. Probably I would take out Ravenna but not Milan … I don’t have any healthy Warlords next to Milan and there are healthy regular Legions still in there. I move the reinforcements against Milan and pray that our allies don't take out 2 cities in one turn. Seems like the safest bet.

Our HC scout makes it between the most exposed two Roman cities in Gaul. He can see both. No signs of Anglo-Saxons invaders nearby. We should be okay. Let's cross our fingers that the Celts are calm this turn.

IBT: If the Romans hang on through this, we are okay. YES, they hang on! Time to wipe them on out!

490 AD: Zucchabar: HC->Migrant. New Carthage: Raider->Raider. New Tingis: Barracks->Walls. Here goes the attack. Ravenna falls easily to two Warlords. On to Milan, the 8th city. It falls!

And then...

Found Vandal Ravenna and Vandal Milan. HC heads south to the ruins of Rome. I didn't have to use the armies … I'm diverting them east against the Byzantine city in Dalmatia. Our HC scout secures a VP location in Gaul. We could use another two migrants in Italy. Need one to settle Rome and another to seal off the Italian peninsula. I start to move some forces out from the anti-Byzantine war camp against Eastern Rome. Looks like only the Franks have lost a city of the civs left.

Save: On to Constantinople!

 

[akots]

Got it, I mean both, the verse and the game.

In the desert far from sea
Mighty bear runs to hunt.
Claws and teeth and loud grunt,
Beast as nowhere to be seen.

Crushes enemies like tide,
Leaving ruins everywhere.
Not a scratch on fluffy hide.
Happy Birthday, Gobi Bear!

I'll take a look and ask questions. Will play tomorrow night.

 

[Gobi Bear]

Thanks for the poetry, oh mighty warrior poet AKOTS! You are truly a Renaissance Vandal!

 

[akots]

You are wellcome. I must admit unwillingly absorbing some of these Roman tricks of so-called culture. Hope that the Council spares my life.

Our reputation is crystal clear. Can trade alliance vs Eastern Rome with Sassanids for 79g+3gpt+furs but it might be better to wait for several turns before we are ready for serious assault. I'm just afraid somebody else will trade them furs. We can even get silks for 26 gpt. But for that price we can increase luxuries to 40%. Byzantines have 7 cities in our region. Salonae is a gateway to Greece and Singidunum to Constantinople. Can also bring in Visigoths for some more rotten furs. Can also bring Anglo-Sax for wines+maps+6gpt. Franks will join for maps+13gpt. We do have enough gpt for all alliances. Prices are given without haggling, so probably they can be lower by 1-2gpt. It is possible to advance to Greece through Salonae with armies/arty/single units and at the same time through Sirmium/Singidunum but in the latter direction the force may be delayed because there are substantially fewer units and some Byzantine heavy cavalry running around. Estimated time for the campaign can be 7-8 turns, maximum 9-10 depending on how well Sassanids play their part and resistance in Thessalonica/Constantinople. Actually, Byzantines build less legion defenders and more cavalry than Rome. The next obvious target is Visigoths. We have RoP but it will expire in 10 turns. Then… do you really think we need to think that far ahead? Vandals are not supposed to think at all, just chop with the battleaxe.

 

[Gobi Bear]

I started some Dromon for you akots. Thought it might be fun to take our forest-dwelling warriors for a spin across the Mediterranean. I hear a few spots in Africa (like Carthage) are nice places to camp.

You might have to whip the Dromon-makers into shape though. We don't seem to know much about ship building.

 

[Justus II]

Excellent thinking, oh mighty and cunning Gobi Bear! Good use of our battle-hardened camp followers! I also like this move:
Our HC scout makes it between the most exposed two Roman cities in Gaul. He can see both. No signs of Anglo-Saxons invaders nearby. We should be okay. Knowledge is power, war is less of a gamble when you know the odds!
Our HC scout secures a VP location in Gaul. Good to see he was rewarded!

Akots, you reassume the mantle of leadership at a most auspicious time. As one of those who persistently argued for more of our tribesmen to be mounted on horseback, you will get the glory of leading our army in mounted warfare vs. the eastern enemy!

Roster:
Justus II
Rubberjello
Gobi Bear - Conqueror of Rome (just played)
Akots - Scourge of Byzantium (up now)
Doc Tsiolkovski - Scouting the Visigoths?(on deck)

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

I'm rather surprised the Western Romans were only "fragile" and we got so few VPs from eliminating them - but since we're likely to take out Byzantium as well, we should win this. But we'll need much longer than the other teams, I guess...

 

[Justus II]

Yep, this scenario definitely seems to "reward" the higher difficulty levels, both by making the other barbs more effective vs. Rome (expected) and with cheaper units, providing a bigger bounty for elimination (unexpected).

 

[Rubberjello]

Yes. In reading the other threads in terms of pure victory point totals, the higher difficulties actually are easier, it seems. Strange.

Ah well. As long as we don't lose.
Good job on the timing of eliminating Western Rome, Mr. Bear! I don't think Eastern Rome will survive long with the dogpile shaping up, but again the timing will be critical.

 

[Gobi Bear]

The one piece of advice I can offer to the players coming up is to carefully check the F8 screen every turn. The jump from 1 Roman city taken out by the other players to 3 cities changed things in a hurry!

I have no idea how the Sassanids are doing versus Eastern Rome, but they certainly have the potential to take out several cities in a turn. So stay on your toes!

 

[akots]

SAVE

IBT. Visigoth moving some warlords through our territory north. They allied with Constantinople against Celts. Our warlords try to defend against HC. One dies, two others survive. One HC retreats, another is dead, no promotions.Hippo Regius HC->HC, Syracuse HC->HC.
[1] 492AD. Both armies advance to Salonae. HC occupies obelisk of Rome. Slave marauder to replace it in 3 turns. Two pairs of HC/slave marauder move to VP locations in Iberia and Gaul. HC 4/4 wins HC 1/4 in Visigoth territory but is redlined. 3 vet warlords there move forward to Singidunum killing HC on the way. We have 6 workers and elite warlord in the forest near Grenoble. Probably lost their way. This forest is huge! Cirta switched from barracks to migrant. War Camp switched from rax to trebuchet. Some units on goto orders. Did not catch many of them. Some go in strange directions. Many warlords need 1-2 turn healing. Fortified them in place.
IBT Franks and Visigoth allied against Celts. Massive troop movement to the north through our territory. Our warlords defend from HC counterattack, HC retreats. Zucchabar migrant -> HC, New Carthage raider->raider. Franks occupy VP. Alas.
[2] 494AD. Army attacks Salonae, +1 marauder. Another army attacks, -legion-garrison. Marauder attack garrison and we capture Salonae! Raze or keep? We’ll keep. The road is important for troop movement and it is far enough from the capital. Set to build spearman. Lost migrant returning to Citra. Migrant from Zucchabar moving south. One raider upgraded to warlord.
IBT Celts make alliance with Huns against East Rome. Visigoth troops move west apparently to attack Celts (there is no tunnel yet, stupid!), Anglo-Sax some north, some south. Franks some west, east some. Our warlords retreat one HC and kill another enslaving. Cagliari HC->HC, New Zucchabar trebuchet->spearman.
[3] 496AD. Slowly advancing to Thessalonica and Sirmium. Visigoth are more of a hindrance clogging all the highways.
IBT. More chaotic troop movement. Panormus migrant ->migrant, New Carthage Raider->Raider.
[4] 498AD. Raider upgraded to warlord. More movement. Can’t stand these Visigoths jamming all roads. Allied them against Constantinople for furs+maps+8gpt.
IBT. Warlord again lucky killing HC and enslaving. Cartennae HC->HC. Ammaedara migrant->spearman, New Tingis walls(?)->spearman.
[5] 500AD. Still moving troops. Upgraded raider to warlord. Franks lost 2 cities apparently to Celts.
IBT. Our HC fights HC attack and wins. New Saldae barracks(?)->worker, Syracuse HC->HC, New Carthage Raider->Raider, New Zucchabar spearman->spearman.
[6] 502AD. VP location in Iberia secured. First legion in Thessalonika killed. Highway jam becoming better. We had too many RoP, for example, with Franks (?) and Anglo-Sax (??). Making RoP is easy, cancelling is difficult.
IBT. Sassanids allied with Franks against Celts. Hippo Regius HC->HC, Rusicade HC->migrant, Lylibaeum HC->migrant, Aleria warlord->HC.
[7] 504AD. Armies attack Thessalonica. Romans minus 4 legions, Vandals plus 2 marauders. Franks down 3 cities. Still moving troops to Sirmium. Takes forever. Time to bring in Sassanids. Allied for 30gpt.
IBT. More chaotic troop movement. These RoP are killing all movement. At least without RoP it is possible to predict where they go. And they don’t jump out of nowhere. Hadrumetum trebuchet->worker, New Carthage Raider ->Raider, Franks lost 4 cities already.
[8] 506AD. Armies besiege Thessalonica. Rome minus 4 legions, Vandals plus 2 marauders, one army redlined. Other troops still moving.
IBT. Troops move everywhere but now more on the borders and less in the center. Still very many. War Camp trebuchet -> spearman, Zucchabar HC->HC, Panormus migrant->worker, Sabratha migrant ->spearman, Citra migrant->worker, New Hippo HC->HC.
[9] 508AD. This game is an extreme logistics/pathfinding skill test. I feel like a highway commissioner or patrol officer. Siege of Sirmuim: raized with 5 defending legions for 2 dead pillagers and 1 dead warlord. Siege of Singidunum: HC wins vs legion, 2 HC redline and retreat, 2HC win vs 2legions, HC redlines and retreats, 2 warlords win, HC loses and dies. Still there is no end to defenders. More troops are on the way. Seige of Thessalonica. 3 legions and 1 garrison defeated at a price of 1 HC. City captured. We now control StPeters Basilica which puts a temple in every city of great Vandal state. Thessalonica to build spearman. New Cartennae founded nearby former Sirmium and is building spearman. Since we now have free temples, sold all existing. We can try to expand a bit in the meantime. Upgraded 2 raiders to warlords for this gold. Sassanids are lazy fools. May be, we brought them into war too late.
IBT. Something crazy is going on. Ostrogoths allied Franks against Byzantines and just a little bit later Celts allied Ostrogoths against Franks. Rusicade migrant->HC, Lilybaeum migrant ->HC, New Carthage Raider->raider, Eastern Rome minus 4 cities.
[10] Army goes to Athens and kills HC on the way redlining itself. Another army is healing in Thessalonica. Moving more troops to Singidunum. Warlord dies there destroying barracks. Will not risk any more losses until critical mass is accumulated. Also, Sassanids did not raze or capture anything yet. Ostrogoths captured one town north of Constantinople. We have Athens and Constantinople which are both heavily guarded and armies are still healing after Thessalonica siege. There is substantial force moving towards Constantinople but not enough yet to capture the city. We still have 4 turns of RoP with Franks, RoP with Visigoth expired but we still need it or else have to declare war on them. Actually, there is only one their city on the main highway and we already built a road around it though it is on their territory. The RoP with Anglo-Sax expired and it would be better not to renew it. We can cancel any time when we are ready. Migrant north of Syracuse was going to build a city right on the spot. Enjoy, Doc!

The main chokepoint was slow movement of reinforcements through the highways jammed due to multiple RoP treaties. Also, it was probably possible to get Sassanids to war earlier. Otherwise attacking unprepared could have brought heavy losses. We lost for 10 turns only 2 HC, 4 warlords and 2 pillagers and captured 2 heavily guarded cities razing one. One more heavily guarded outpost is surrounded and will fall probably next turn. Another problem is that East Rome retaliated only once with HC hence no more leaders. Sieges were mostly won by armies slaughtering 4 legions every turn. Sorry, no picture this time, dial-up does not work. Either I forgot to pay or they forgot to get the money. Posting from a disk at neighbors house. They have road runner.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

See it, got it. Nice turns, I'm sure, but highly without having a look at the save (not your fault, blame those Barbarians)

Oh Mighty Highwaypatrolman Akots, could you answer some questions from OTOH:

- How many cities have the Byzantines lost? (Ok, I can verify this by loading the sav after work, but not the other questions)
- Any idea how many VPs we make on average each turn (without capturing cities)?
- Any chance we can finish off the Franks with a detachment of HC taking thier 8th city?

Just a minor point:

Since we now have free temples, sold all existing.

May I point you here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73952

I never liked selling off city improvements unless I built that particular wonder in a core city I'm sure to never loose, and that game proved me I'm not paranoid...culture flips are on, and the Visigoths are darn close to Saloniki. Let's cross fingers

 

[Gobi Bear]

The Goto orders are my fault. Sorry this is my first SG.

I only created the ROP with the Visigoths to launch the attack on the Byzantines. The others seemed to be in place when I started my turn. The road jam was starting to become a nightmare ... I was thinking of leaving a chain of cheap units out of our territory to the south to combat it. Sounds like that might have been a good idea.

 

[Justus II]

@Akots-Good turns, pressing forward the attack. I would have held onto our old temples a little while longer also (there is no maintenance on existing buildings when a wonder is in place), at least until some of our "new" temples trigger border expansion. But I'm glad you captured rather than raze that one, once those borders do kick in, it will give us more of a cushion.

Except for all the ROPs I agree they were needed at the time, but it sounds like that time is past, and we want to get out of them when we can. I also like Gobi's idea, maybe we can use a bunch of Marauders as "traffic cops", park one per tile along key roads.

I would be interested in what it would take to knock the Franks out, if our ROP is up in 4, and they are teetering on the brink, it might be worth it to push them over when/if we get the chance. I am concerned about E. Rome, if the Sassanids haven't done anything yet, IIRC they only had like 6 cities on our side of the Bosphorus, and we don't have much of a navy. I'd hate to exterminate them from Europe and then not be able to reach their 8th city until too late. If so, we may need to maintain the siege on one city on this side until we can get troops across, and save it for our 8th.

 

[Justus II]

OK, I've had a chance to look at the save, so here are some quick updates:
Score: 18185 VP, E. Rome 28,365
Our army has 40 Warlords, 17 H.Cav, and bunches of other Vandals, but no ships. We are Strong compared to most, but Average to E. Rome and the Huns. However, I see two problems, maybe three:

1. East Rome has lost 4 cities, the three we took and ??? (I can't see another ruin that would have been theirs). However, they only have 3 left in Europe: Singidum, Constantinople, and Athenae. We are in position to take Singidum this turn, and given a turn or two of healing, can take Constantinople easily. We are also in position to cut off anyone else from Athenae. However, we have no way across the straights, (and she has at least two Dromon there now), so we are dependent on the Huns or Sass taking a city over there for us.

We have three courses of action- A)We take Singidum and Constantinople, then blockade Athenae (two tiles can wall it off), and wait for another city to fall, and just hope that two don't fall at once. B)Take Singindum, and blockade both Constantinople and Athenae, gives us more insurance, although it would tie up more forces. C)Take Singidum and Constantinople, pop-rush a few dromons, (And probably settle another city or two on the coast, merge workers, and pop dromons) and cross ourselves. This will take a while, and we still won't be able to move armies across. I would lean toward choice B right now.

Or choice D)Pull troops back from Constantinople and Thessilonika, let them retake it, then take it back Just be ready to move quickly if someone else takes a city in Asia Minor.

2. We have 4 cities/VP sites in N. Italy with a TOTAL of 4 defenders, all marauders/spear. If/when we do get into war with another barb (see problem 3) we could lose those in a hurry. I would try to redirect some defenses that way, sooner rather than later, I would hate to have an AI attack us and our reinforcements are stuck in traffic

3. We are half way to our victory total, but East Rome may not be enough to put us over the top. We need to look for our "next" opponent, so we are prepared when E.Rome does fall. I can't tell how many cities the Franks have lost, but it cannot be more than 4, since E.Rome is listed with 4 on the F8 screen. So they may not be as easy to pick off, unless the other AIs make progress against them. From a logistical standpoint, the Visigoths are the easiest target, we have troops all over the area, and they have lots of size1-2 cities.

Anyway, hope that gives everyone some food for thought, good luck Doc, you've got a lot of options on the table!

Map of European Byzantine Empire, 510AD

Also, this should clear up the alliance picture:

ROSTER:
Justus II - On Deck (May get a turn after all)
Rubberjello
Gobi Bear
Akots - Just Played
Doc Tsiokovski - Got it

 

[Rubberjello]

I would vote for blocakading Athens as insurance, take Constaninople and start getting some ships built there and at Thessolonika. Fill in our defenses a little and keep any newly generated miltary close to home for attack on Visigoths or another easy neighbor. We can only hope the Sassies will get their act together and capture a few cities. If Constantinople is lost, maybe that would hasten the process a bit?

I feel we need to eventually build a some ships no matter what. We can't rely exclusively on the Sassies and Huns, or else Eastern Rome might ultimately win.

I've read somewhere that the Bosphorus Straight is only 700 yards across. Why can't we build a pontoon bridge?

 

[Justus II]

We can only hope the Sassies will get their act together and capture a few cities.

A FEW would be a bad thing, once we take Singdicum and Constantinople, they will have lost 6. We want them to take 1, then let us get #7.

Originally posted by Rubberjello
I've read somewhere that the Bosphorus Straight is only 700 yards across. Why can't we build a pontoon bridge?

One of the first things I noticed about this map was the fact there is no land connection. In the Middle Ages scenario, there is a land bridge, (2 if you count Constantinople, which is positioned to touch both halves). I guess it must have been different design decisions by the two different scenario developers, right Gobi?

 

[Rubberjello]

Originally posted by Justus II
One of the first things I noticed about this map was the fact there is no land connection. In the Middle Ages scenario, there is a land bridge, (2 if you count Constantinople, which is positioned to touch both halves). I guess it must have been different design decisions by the two different scenario developers, right Gobi?

Perhaps there was rapidly accelerated Continental Drift between 500 AD and 1100 AD?

 

[akots]

Originally posted by Justus II
1. East Rome has lost 4 cities, the three we took and ??? (I can't see another ruin that would have been theirs... We have three courses of action- A)We take Singidum and Constantinople, then blockade Athenae ... B)Take Singindum, and blockade both Constantinople and Athenae... C)Take Singidum and Constantinople, pop-rush a few dromons ... and cross ourselves. Or choice D)Pull troops back from Constantinople and Thessilonika, let them retake it, then take it back...

@1. Ostrogoths took a city N of Constantinople.

@Options E) Don't take Singidunum, keep the siege going, spread the troops around it. We can take it anytime. Take Constantinople (this would not be easy) and Athenae (the army should be enough). Pray that Persia helps us with 1 city. Then, take Singidunum as the 8th city. Do not raze, we can keep them all. Even if one flips... big deal. Even better. After Byzantines are gone, our excessive military near Sirmium is very well positioned to attack ethier Visogths or Anglo-Sax or Franks. If we move troops somewhere we will split the force and lack decisive impact.

@RoP that were needed. Why you might want to have RoP with Anglo-Sax? Or Franks? I counted, Anglo-Sax had about 34 units in our territory around 500AD. They settled 5 or 6 new towns because of this. They jumped our of the fog with 5-6 units every turn moving absolutely chaotically east-west one turn and west-east another turn. I tried to position workers/cheap units to relieve the congestion and now it is much better. Therefore gaining some 1 or 2 turns of extra movement for war with West Rome or some other minor benefit put us at least 5 or more turns behind creating unwanted complications. I just did not post it in the log. Needed some time to calm down, I was really mad during the game.

@troops. We have more troops than we need to win. Probably 2 times more than we need. As MP in homeland and as attack force. The point is not to have a huge army but to be able to deliver it to its destination in time and stay focused. I reloaded today after posting and tried to cancel RoP with Anglo-Sax and ask them to leave. They did not go immediately and I tried to declare a war. We have so large military at home that it was possible to eliminate almost all their units. This certainly creates some havoc in the core which is not good and this is the last resort possibility. The problem is that when RoP is canceled, these barabrian troops are moving out more slowly and it takes forever for them to leave. Therefore, IMHO, cancel RoP, ask to leave, if they do not go, attack and kill them all.

@dromons. Our people do not know how to buld these ships. Neither they do know how to sail them. We are not some Byzanthine weaklings and sailing is not a thing that a real Vandal can enjoy. Well, if we have to, we can entertain the noble lords. But it does not seem to be needed for victory.

@how easy it is to knock other barbs out? Apparently very easy. Just have to get there. That is the most difficult part. I was surprized at very poor resistance that Byzantines have put. Probably, other barbs will be substantially easier target.