RBC13C - Tenacious Turks (Deity)

[T_McC]

I'm not going to play tonight, but I'll do some MM and diplomacy and throw out some ideas for our next direction.

We have 14 Horses, which is sufficient to start a war. My initial feeling is Germany, and maybe the Poles. I don't want any part of the Rus until we have Sipahi.

Did you know we were at war with Sweden? They have 7 'zerks wandering up to our front lines. I'll see if peace can be struck. If it doesn't come cheap, I'll just have to kill his offense with our Horses. Maybe get a leader. Peace is 20 gold. I'll think about it.

Viking Sagas is available for Iron (or 11 gpt.)

We can't trade Iron to the Rus anymore. And they are happy with us again.

We could get the Poles in against Sweden for Early Seigecraft.

We get 33 gpt back from Norway in 9 turns.


Ok, trading on the IT:

Start with the Byz, last chance to trade them Tar. Tar for Quarry, WM (55 gold value), 19 gold. In a couple of turns they will have hooked up Tar themselves. They only need 1 road segment of flat land.

Hawk the Byz WM around for another 32 gold.

Re-negotiate Peace with Burgundy, getting two workers for 2 gpt in exchange for not hurting him.

Now we can go one of two ways:
A.) Iron + 22 gpt to Denmark for Medieval Combat.
Med. Combat to Norway for Viking Sagas + 7 gold.

B.) Apocolypse NOW! Build Embassy with Burgundy, sign an MA vs. Germany. Abe will give us Medieval Combat + 4 workers!
Med. Combat to Norway for Viking Sagas + 7 gold.
MA vs. Germany with the Magyars, with us giving Map Making + 3 gpt.

Maybe make Peace with Norway as part of B. Could also buy more folks in against Germany. (Namely the Rus.) I am not sure we want a full-out dogpile, as I don't want to see Germany wiped out. I just want to see their GA production being wasted against the Magyars. And I want those Magyar troops the H*ll out of our land.

I know which way I want to go!

 

[Caesar_Augustus]

I'd Vote for option B.

Is there an advantage to trading for Viking Sagas? The +2 naval move doesn't really help us, but if the shield cost is low a Heroic Epic would be pretty nice.

I never thought of playing ahead and using reloads to find out the best trade combinations . . . . On one level, it seems like a good way to plan trades and make the best deal. On another level, it seems like the same thing as reloading if a siege to take a city fails or some other game event doesn't go our way . . . So I'm not sure if the trading thing counts as a violation of RB rules.

No biggie either way - if it turns out to be a violation, we'll just stop doing it. If not, hey, nice trades!

But yeah, war against the Germans sounds like fun . We need to stay aggressive and keep razing/capturing and expanding if we want to achieve DOMINATION (some words just beg to be written in all-capital letters). If we keep reclaiming the territory around us, and eventually overrun the Rus and maybe bits of the Poles and Mags, we'll have the NE quadrant of the map and thus should have enough territory for the 25% land requirement. That's the easy part though - the hard part is getting our pop up to 25%

 

[jack merchant]

@Caesar - concur on the tar; I had held off on trading it in the vain hope that the Byzantines would show up with something more useful (i.e. Medieval Combat). However, they should get a source of their own any time now and at least the trade may stop them attacking us for another 20 turns.

@T_McC - I noticed the Swedish war and should have mentioned them - however, I was rather confused about where they were going. They seemed to go for Ferrouz at first but then moved due East again. Peace may be a good idea, though our horsemen should take care of the Zerks rather easily (and give us ~500 VPs to boot).

Apocalypse now sounds like an excellent idea for a movie, er, plan . With some luck we can grab that annoying city near Ferrouz too. And we certainly want the Rus in on our side there - we really don't want any German knights coming at us !

 

[T_McC]

Originally posted by Caesar_Augustus
I never thought of playing ahead and using reloads to find out the best trade combinations . . . . On one level, it seems like a good way to plan trades and make the best deal. On another level, it seems like the same thing as reloading if a siege to take a city fails or some other game event doesn't go our way . . . So I'm not sure if the trading thing counts as a violation of RB rules.

Well ... the only information re-loading gave me was whether the Magyars would sign an MA vs. the Germans. I could have compared the two options for obtaining Med. Combat without pulling the trigger on either. By investigating how much it would cost for Viking Sagas, I knew Norway valued it at ~220 gold. I could have been confident that Med. Combat was worth more that 220 gold at (N+1)th. We paid approximately 800 gold, and even with the Deity devaluation of Human "stuff", should have been worth > 200 gold to Norway.

It is kind of hazy, if one assumes it was intentional that the game precludes asking about the cost of an MA vs. a civ you haven't declared war on. You can't ask the question, "If I go to war with X, are you in?".

There was another time in this game when I reloaded to undo a trade, and feel completely justified. I had traded for Seafaring, and couldn't sell it back to the Rus, even though I knew they had Viking Traditions and did not have Seafaring before I acquired it. It appears as though two civs cannot exchange technologies from a "flavor tree" unless at least one of them has that flavor in the editor. We are Islamic and the Rus are Byzantine, so we can't exchange Viking techs. At no place in the Civilopedia (or editor) is that clearly stated, so I wouldn't have known what was even possible in diplomacy.

 

[T_McC]

@Jack - Not sure I want the Rus in against the Germans. Maybe after we take that German city near them. We can beat the Magyars to it, but not the Rus.

We want to get something out of this war. The Germans have another city almost off the map in the east. Take both cities, steal Western Church from somebody (anybody up for a war with England?), and extract tech as tribute for peace.

I am also inclined to keep the Swedish war going, to fish for leaders.

 

[jack merchant]

Why would we want Western Church though ? I don't think it actually gives us anything. If we have the money to steal anything, I'd rather we stole Assassination or use it for the prohibitively expense Sipahi upgrades.
From now on, I think the only techs we can use are Polearms (for pikes) and maybe Middle Class (for markets) in the next age and MC to get there.

 

[T_McC]

RBC Turks - Its Breaking Loose in Tulsa!

1095 AD (0)
Make the aforementioned trades, net effect is that we give Tar, Map Making, 3 gpt, and a war with Germany, we get Med. Combat, Norse Sagas, Quarry, 6 workers, and 60 gold.

Firstly, kill two infringing German spears and an exposed Archer. Have to see where the 'zerks go to decide whether I want to play war with Sweden or not.

Swap a few tiles and build orders, nothing special.

<Return>

IT - Heh, the Magyars blocked the Swedes from being able to move 'zerks adjacent to Ferrouz this turn. Fringe benefit.

1098 AD (1)
Ferrouz completes Walls, starts Cat. Assassination will take 36 turns, even at break-even research. We are currently at +34 gpt.

IT - Lots o'War going on.

1101 AD (2)
pRNG hates me when attacking 'zerks, lose two vet Horses and retreat a regular to do 1 HP of damage. Pay Swedes 60 gold for peace, and lose the opportunity to go leader-fishing.

Now to broker the WM around again: Nets about 15 gold.

IT - France goes to war with Burgundy. I thought they already were ...

1104 AD (3)
Have to re-adjust cities for loss of War Happiness vs. Sweden.

Found Kirkaleli in a gap on our Eastern shore.

1107 AD (4)
Lux will have to go to 20%, or I'm going to have to acquire another.

Finally get to attack some cities:

Attack on Hannover: Elite Horse wins without a scratch, Vet Horse retreats, Vet Horse wins. We capture Hannover, set to build Warrior. This city is almost off the map.

Assault on Nuremberg: Vet Horse jobs clean, Vet Horse wins, Vet Horse wins and we capture Nuremberg. Set to worker, to bleed off the native Pop.

Just took a look around the map and noticed something weird: England settled Hastings in the exact same spot as in the Norway game. And they lost it to a Viking civ here, too.

Also just took note of the fact that the Byz have ~8000 VP. This bears watching.

Diplo Round: Note to Gobi (or other BreakAway lurkers) The Abbasids show the wrong leader head in their descriptive Bio. They should be the Hittite ruler, but instead show Abu.

Snag a French worker for Early Seigecraft.
Rus lack Horses and Med. Combat. Infantry vs. Sipahi is a blowout, even when the Infantry are 'zerks.
Cordova has a worker, and an extra wool, but we have nothing to trade. Hmm ... I don't expect to attack the Iberian Peninsula anytime soon, so let's just lock the Pax in for 20 turns. Liberate the worker for a pledge not to harm the Cordovans.
Abbasids have Assassination + lux. Lux runs 31 gpt, too rich for us yet. Tech is out of the question.

I have no idea who the Byz are fighting, but they have troops on the move.

Raise the lux tax to 20% and re-MM the cities. Was + 42 gpt @10%, now is ... +29 gpt. But put more people back to work.

1110 AD (5)
Nothing noteworthy.

IT - Poles eliminate Burgundy. Maybe this will free up some lux? Byzantines declare on Abbasids! Have to figure out what this means for us. Rus want to talk ... wants Medieval Combat as part of a WM swap. The funny thing is that he will be paying us for our map on my turn. No deal. Why can't these clowns shake loose some gpt?

1113 AD (6)
I think we have to be prepared to poach some land from the Byz-Abbasid war. The Byz are the biggest civ in the game, but will hit the Abbasids during their GA. And the AI really doesn't react well to 3-move units. Diplo round nets ~10 gold from WM sales. The Byz now have Medieval Combat and the Abbasids have Middle Class.

IT - Cordava whacks Castille. Who knew?

1116 AD (7)
Ghuzz starts on Norse Saga (300 shield Heroic Epic). I'm not sure that is what it will actually build, but ... Sheriff's Office --> Robin Hood could be nice, and is available with Divine Right. I expect to see the 1st row techs of the final age start to show up soon.

IT - Germany signs alliance with Abbasids against ... Byantines! Maybe the Abbasids gave them something we can extort come peace time. Then Abbasids come knocking ... for a WM swap. What, we're not good enough to attack the Byzantines! (Not that we would have ). Germany wants Peace. I don't.

1119 AD (8)
Cordova now has Assassination. Nothing new on Diplo. Oh, did I mention I'm going to attack France? Well I will on my last turn.

1122 AD (9)
Iznik completes a Blacksmith, moves on to Granary. Izmit (Western Front) completes Walls and goes to Town Hall. Yay, our economy came back! Now at +54 gpt. We really, really need a leader to jump the Palace. Just out of curiosity ... 300 gold + 54 gpt is doubtful for Assassination. I think we either have to research this ourselves, or extort a final age tech from Germany to blunt the cost.

Nuts! Just now noticed we have an active Peace Treaty with France. Oh well, in 5 turns (or more) we can attack them.

England has The Middle Class. Can't afford it, but could be useful. Allows Marketplaces, which is a good thing with our all-cash economy.

1125 AD (10)
Rus kick our troops out. Only moved us 1 square. Aydin completes Blacksmith, starts Town Hall.

Final Notes:
The war with Germany couldn't be more phony. The Magyar alliance has worked like a charm, we haven't seen a German unit other than those in our territory prior to the war declaration.

The Abbasid-Byzantine war isn't showing any results yet, no cities have changed hands.

I suggest our next course of action be to declare war on the Poles. They have 3 cities near our core, and we have enough troops to take those within a couple of turns. The troops aren't set for that yet, and the next player may have to change some build orders to free some horses from MP. I say declare, take 1 city on the first turn and make good progress towards the 2nd and 3rd, then buy the Rus in for Horses or Medieval Combat. We want all of those Rus troops going west and cutting off the Polish forces. So don't buy them in until we are sure we will beat them to the Polish cities near our core.

We are pretty big, but our economy sucks. A palace jump should be worth 30 gpt+, due to decreased corruption. Being able to build Robin Hood in Ghuzz will save us at least 10 gpt on the lux tax, plus net another 6-7 gpt from the Marketplace effect of the requisite Sheriff's Office. I think the Norse Sagas will be a good Leader-rush project. I don't think we will lack for leaders, we should be fighting a lot from here on out.

One MM note: I think Urfa is the odd man out in our core, and should not be expected to grow larger than size 6. This means Khazar can grow, so Temple + Aqueduct + Smith is warranted.

We now have 16 Horsemen, and I think I have the MP situation under control. All of our productive cities should have enough MP (or the max allowed) so everyone can work.

I think we are in pretty good shape. Our two most dangerous neighbors are fighting each other. If the Rus don't get some horses, and are not able to sneak-attack us, their 'zerks should be used almost entirely on defense, where they are just really expensive spears. The Magyars have big stacks of leader-fodder, whatever remains of them after the German Knights are finished. If we can fight sequential wars, and be able to concentrate on one "real" foe at a time (Poland, France, and Germany can all be fought at once, if we have Allies) we have a decent shot at pulling this out.


I guess that's progress

 

[T_McC]

A few other thoughts for Caesar:

If we do decide to actually try to research Assassination, change all of our taxmen to scientists, then adjust the slider to see how hard we can go without fear of bankruptcy. Since we have no libraries, scientists are actually our best bang for the research buck. (3 lightbulbs vs. 2 gold for a taxman).

Looks like 18 turns to research Assassination at our best rate. That savings of 9 turns costs us 69 gold/turn. Oddly, if it costs the same to research as to buy, our best strategy would be to turn all the taxmen into scientists and continue the min. sci run. Instead of putting 22 gpt into the treasury, our 11 specialists could be knocking 33 gpt off the purchase price. If I had thought of that before my turns, we'd be 100 gold closer to a buy.

Germany will make peace anytime you desire. I would definitely wait until either the Magyars make peace or we can cancel our MA. The Germans only have ~150 gold to offer, and still lack Medieval Combat. It should be no problem to hang on for another 10 turns, so hopefully der Kaiser can come up with a 3rd age tech for us.

Don't mind all the Rus troops wandering around. They like to chase after barb camps. All the Abbasid wanderers went home when they heard about the war.

I really don't know what those Swedish 'zerks are doing. They have been wandering around for a little while.

I agree with Jack that stealing Western Church is a poor idea. There is nothing that useful to us on that tree. However, I disagree on the necessary 3rd age techs. I like about half of them, in particular Parliament for the very useful Magna Carta wonder (FP + Town Halls in all cities), Religious Persecution for an FP, and Divine Right for Robin Hood (Hanging Gardens).

We have quarry for 10 more turns, so if you think we need Walls anywhere, start them.

I think we have 28 native workers and 18 slaves.

I did not conduct diplomacy on my last turn. I leave that for Caesar.

 

[Caesar_Augustus]

got it

 

[Caesar_Augustus]

IT: England declares on the Byz.

1128 AD (1): I move troops towards the Polish borders.

IT: Sweden and Abbasids ally vs Byz. Franks start Knights Templar.

1131 AD (2): Not much happening.

IT: Norway declares on Byz.

1134 AD (3): Germans have Middle Class and we could get it discounted for peace, but I don't want to trash our rep.

IT: Danes declare on the Byz. Abbasids and Byz make peace - that was a fairly quick war. The Byz gained a city on them. OUCH:

The loss of our only luxury is a HUGE blow. Konya riots, but I can prevent other riots by scrolling ahead. Abbasids start the Hanseatic League, which means they have Mercantilism.

1137 AD (4): We're better off keeping the lux rate at 20% and keeping the specialists. Thank god we had two sources of tar or our rep would have been trashed. Luxuries are out there for around 360 gold, but I'd rather have the money for tech and upgrades. We're at 510g, 29gpt, 23 turns on assass. 6 turns remain on our German Alliance with the Magyars.

IT: Byz start Notre Dame and Hans League.

1140 AD (5): Nada

IT: Rus declare on the Norwegians, then sign the Magyars to an MA as well. Abbasids start Notre Dame.

1143 AD (6): More moving. Getting ready to hit the Poles.

IT: Magyars make peace with Germany.

1146 AD (7): A gpt deal expires and we have 43gpt total to play with.

I make peace with the Germans, getting Middle Class for WM, 40gpt, and 365 gold. I then trade Middle Class, WM, 10gpt, and 229g to the Cordovans for Assassination, and then Middle Class to the Fatimids for WM + 93g + Wines. I finish off the Middle Class selling by getting Furs + WM from the Swedes.

I cancel peace with the Poles, and we are now AT WAR with them. I then sign in the Magyars to war with the Poles for Early Siege, netting 170g + WM from them as well.

So we now have Sipahi and Assassins, and our golden age is looming on the horizon! However, I'm not going to send in Sipahi against the Poles just yet. We have some Elite Horsemen, and I'm hoping we can pop a leader to move our Palace before initiating our GA. A golden age with a centrally located capital will be MUCH better than a golden age in our corrupt empire.

I realize these tech deals hamstring our economy for a Divine Right purchase in time to switch Ghuzz to the Sheriff's Office before Norse Sagas complete, but A) no one has Divine Right anyway, they seem to be going Mercantilism and Theology B) I'd prefer to have Ghuzz cranking out the Sipahi anyway.

I attack Lubli with an Elite horse and win, but no leader. Since the horse lost one hp, I don't attack the 2nd spear with our vet horses so I can attack next turn with the Elite. We need a leader BAD. I move troops next to another Pole city.

I MM our cities since we now have two luxuries. Fire all scientists and hire taxmen. Start us on sole scientist for Medicine - hospitals (growth over size 6) will be nice later for achieving the 25% pop. Eligible cities switch to Marketplaces. Lux tax to 0%, GPT now +26.

1149 AD (8): We're at turn 102, the midway point of the game. A time for celebration. However, only one gift would befit such an occasion . . .

. . . and that's not it. Cities are great and all, but we need a leader! Hmm, maybe this situation will work out better:

 

[Caesar_Augustus]

But alas, still no leader, but we do take the city. I dial up the Rus - but Medieval Combat isn't enough to bring them into an Alliance vs the Poles! Ah well, the Magyars will be enough to bear the brunt of Polish Power. I don't like the Rus anyway; they're so uncouth and uncultured with their long tangled hair and huge blunt axes.

IT: Hmm, where are the French off to?

1152 AD (9): The French are annoyed with us, so a sneak attack is quite probable. Our lone Sipahi falls one tile short of reaching Ferrouz, but will be able to counter-attack if the French manage to overcome the Ferrouz garrison. No Barracks in Ferrouz means we can't upgrade anything.

IT: The French are either leaving us alone and going after barbs, or have switched their focus to the town north of Ferrouz.

1155 AD (10): Nothing.

Notes:
-The Byz are up Seamanship, Theology, and Mercantilism.
-Ghuzz has Norse Saga due in 2. We can't afford to trade for any of the Wonder techs, so looks like we're stuck with it.
-I left a vet horse active in Izmit - up to next ruler whether to upgrade or to save cash for awhile.
-We're at War with the Poles, and have an alliance against them with the Magyars.
-The Byz are at war with Norway, England, Sweden, Denmark, and Germany.
-Sweden is giving us Furs for another 17 turns (+ 2 turns of peace), and we have 17 turns of peace with (and 40gpt to) the Germans. It's really too bad, because if we signed Alliances with the Byz against ALL of the nations Theodora is at war with, we could afford to buy Theology if we throw in 37gpt, and then we could switch our 268 shields in Ghuzz over to Notre Dame (-2 unhappy citizens per city). Is it worth doing that and trashing our rep though? Financially it would be fine, since our 40 gpt deal with the Germans would be cancelled. Wishful thinking though: such an action would fall under the 'Phony Peace Treaty' Exploit at RBC, since our Peace Treaty/40gpt commitment to the Germans and our Peace Treaty with the Swedes would be scrapped.

Or is it only wishful thinking? If we remove just the Alliances against the Swedes and Germans from the table, Theodora is still 'We're getting close to a deal' if we give her everything we have for Theology. Perhaps next turn, with an additional 37 gold, we MIGHT be able to swing the deal for Theology. We have no current deals with the other 3 civs the Byz are warring against, so no worries about exploits/rep trashing.

But could we even get Notre Dame with 3 AI civs already building it? Here's a screenshot of the cities building it (I believe our WM is current enough to make this useful):

Damascus and Ghent are both nice and close to their capitals, but are pretty small. I would guess that Sinope is around 50% corrupt, given its distance and the many Byzantine cities. It's the biggest threat, but not much of one.

In comparison, right now Ghuzz has 268 shields in the box (ND costs 600) and could produce 21 spt if we up the lux rate (there's an entertainer right now). It also grows in 2 turns, so there's another 2 shields. But, with our Sipahi we can trigger a golden age, which would bump it over 30 shields.

Starting to babble, so what's my point ? IF we can get Theology from the Byz next turn for the 3 alliances + Gold, I say we have an excellent chance of scoring Notre Dame. It would kill our economy, but we could broker Theology to a couple of civs (Cordova could give us another lux, Wool, for it) and the -2 unhappiness from Notre Dame would REALLY help our economy in the long run, since those 2 luxs we have now will be gone in 17 turns.

It might be worth it for the next ruler to try and max our gold income as much as possible for next turn (taxmen, commerce tiles in lieu of shield tiles). We could also delay the Norse Saga build in Ghuzz for a few more turns, and hope that Theo doesn't go around and make peace with everyone.

Shall we dance with the Devil in the pale moonlight?

EDIT: RE medicine research: Hospitals also generate culture in this scenario, making it the perfect improvement for end game tile-claimin' growth-spurtin'.

 

[jack merchant]

Of course we could just trigger our GA to get the gpt necessary for grabbing Notre Dame, but that will waste a bit of the expanded GA production.... also, we don't know how many shields will be left in Ghuzz after moving the palace so the city of Sinope could be a threat after all (particularly since the 268 shields currently accumulated only make up for the difference in build cost between the AI and us).

I don't think we want to trash our rep though; being able to sign alliances will be highly useful in our quest for domination, since the AI will build, or have already built, insane amounts of troops.

 

[T_McC]

On a few fronts:

Haven't opened the save, so don't have any specific comments. However, we shouldn't voluntarily trash our rep. So no go on MA's vs. Germany or Sweden.

Stretching to get Notre Dame sounds like an excellent idea. An extra two happies is worth a lot of gpt, so even if we have to kick off our GA to buy the tech, it should be worth it. I suspect in a GA that Ghuzz can do >35 spt, so we'd complete the project within 10 turns of obtaining the tech (if we were in a GA).

Jack, Aggie has been posting about computer problems in other threads, so if you can grab the game and play in the next couple of days, you should probably swap with Aggie for this round. That way his turn would be Thursday-ish.

 

[Aggie]

Originally posted by T_McC
Jack, Aggie has been posting about computer problems in other threads, so if you can grab the game and play in the next couple of days, you should probably swap with Aggie for this round. That way his turn would be Thursday-ish.

That sounds like a very good plan

Regarding the Notre Dame: I like the idea of trying to grab that one.

 

[jack merchant]

I'll grab it now then, however I'm also up in AG1 (likely 10 turns of grueling modern age warfare) so it'll likely be tomorrow before I get it done.

 

[Caesar_Augustus]

Originally posted by T_McC
Stretching to get Notre Dame sounds like an excellent idea. An extra two happies is worth a lot of gpt, so even if we have to kick off our GA to buy the tech, it should be worth it. I suspect in a GA that Ghuzz can do >35 spt, so we'd complete the project within 10 turns of obtaining the tech (if we were in a GA).

The only problem with that is there are no enemies within reach of our Sipahi. It would take a few turns to get at some Pole units, and off the top of my head I don't think there are any Norwegian, English, or Swedish units anywhere in our territory. So if we go for this we should
A) delay production as much as possible in Ghuzz
B) move a Sipahi and attack either a Pole, Swede, Norwegian, or English unit (after honourably declaring war of course)
C) Sign the 3 MAs with the Byz and then pay whatever it takes to get Theology

Then Notre Dame is ours, and we should have some extra cash to upgrade horses to Sipahi. Once our markets complete, we can turn production towards Sipahi in our core. We may also want to start skimming settlers off of food maxed cities, since we should have lots of land to fill up in the turns to come

After awhile, we should turn our attention to the Rus. If we attack their 3 king cities, their entire empire will disappear and start off another settler flood. We can then pointy stick any tech we want, as well as grab a significant amount of land. We should be able to grab 2-3 iron as well as some furs.

Also another note - don't forget about granaries in our cities, especially the ones on rivers!

 

[T_McC]

Just to be clear, Jack has posted a got it and is playing.

Now, since it appears he hasn't played yet, I'll ramble:
I'll first say that there is a real effect to playing two versions of this scenario, as different civs. Hey, where's Castile! oops ... wrong game.

The prebuild in Ghuzz can be slowed by a turn by using another specialist. This also allows both specialists to be taxmen, so we get a little income boost.

There is money to be made in map trading on your first turn.

One potential complication: Notre Dame requires Quarry, which I don't think we are only getting through trade with the Byz.

Theology is rather highly valued. I fear we cannot afford it until our GA. Speaking of which, certainly looks like a "sneak" attack is coming from the French. I tried every underhanded trick I know, but couldn't figure out a way to buy Theology from the French on the IT. But, you know, the re-negotiating Peace trick also works quite well for pre-emptively cleaning out an opponents coffers and paying gpt for it.

When the French attack, we certainly have the currency to sic someone else on them. We could send a lot of Rus soldiers off to die with either Middle Class or Horses. The Danes would probably go for Middle Class, as would Norway.

We need to choose our next victim after the sideshows of Poland and France are completed. If we send the Rus after the Franks, it would seem that the Magyars should be ripe for the picking. We've bled their troops off in the last two wars, so once we get GA-fueled Sipahi production and upgrades, they should fold like a house of cards.

If we do have to get the Rus involved against France (and it is still possible they are just chasing that barb camp in the north), we should probably get an ROP to nail the outlying Polish city.

Does Poland have anything to offer us for peace?

When we do kick off our GA, it would probably be worthwhile to buy a lux or two to get everyone out in the fields working to collect the bonus shields and trade.

 

[jack merchant]

I'll be done in 10-15 minutes, but here's a little teaser already:

 

[jack merchant]

IHT: Norse Saga slowed down by working two sea tiles, which turns out to be more efficient than hiring a tax man. I intend to renew our quarry supply, but we can no longer trade tar for it since the Byzantines have it themselves now . The Byzantines are asking 2gpt and 250 gold for it - I think I'll buy it from the Fatimids instead once we buy Theology.
Make 30 gold from map sales.

IT The French aren't going for us - they move back and more troops are spotted moving South into Magyar lands.

1158 AD (1) Well, so much for our plan of using the GA money to buy Theology:

[insert obscenities of your choice here] Our sole Sipahi was in there (I had planned to move it north to the remaining Polish outlier, but it was out of movement points) .

Anyway, since we can't afford Theology (MM'ing to the max for income and throwing in three alliances is still only close to a deal from the Byzantines) and we won't get a GA now. I upgrade a horse to Sipahi and will try in the remaining turn.

1161 AD (2) Some deal must have ended, as we now have 56gpt; decide to go for Theology after all and we buy it from Byzantium for 49gpt, 190 gold and 3 alliances. The price of Quarry now jumps though; it takes two full techs to get it from the Rus (they did throw in WM+60gold). Anything less was only doubtful. Making use of our tech when I can, I decide to also grab Wool from Cordova with it.

Notre Dame is due in 15 turns.

IT Byzantines sign in Cordova against Danes too; I suspect all our wars will remain rather phony.

1164 AD (3) The overriding consideration now is to get a GA by any means possible. To that end, I sign a ROP with the gracious Rus so we can get to the Poles faster.

IT Abbasids declare on Fatimids

1167 AD (4) Our Sipahi attacks a Polish spear, loses 2hp but promotes: Golden Age !

Our income shoots up to 73gpt - however, that's without the tax collectors. As it turns out it's cheaper to raise luxes to 10% than to buy a lux from the Byzantines (who want 27gpt for it instead of the 21gpt the lux tax costs) so we're at 51gpt now. Notre Dame is now due in 7. What's nice is that Ghuzz can produce a Sipahi every 2 turns after it's done with it.

1170 AD (5) I notice we lost our wool already . It's probably Cordova's declaration against the Danes that did it.

I leaderfish with our elite Sipahi against a Polish archer but the Sipahi retreats rather than generate a leader :crazyeyes:.

1173 AD (6) Ghuzz riots ???? It turns out we lost another lux, but I didn't get a message during the interturn so another trade route must have been broken somewhere.
A whole lot of scrolling-ahead occurs, I then buy wines from Byzantium for 19gpt and go through all the cities again to fix things.

We generate our first native-built Sipahi and also have enough cash to upgrade another horse.

1176 AD (7) Nothing much, really ! I'm not going to start a bunch of wars before we have, say, 10 Sipahi at least since it doesn't look like the Magyars are distracted by anyone, and we won't be able to hold very many cities at all.

1179 AD (8) MMOW; I also try and see how fast we could research, but the answer is not very fast at all ( best non-deficit rate doesn't gain a turn over min sci)

1182 AD (9) Paris completes the Knights Templar. Unless there's a town capable of coming up with 100 shields in 2 turns though, I'm not too worried about a cascade. More markets coming online, Sipahi and Blacksmiths ordered up. Income now at 90gpt.

1185 AD (10) With the task force from Ferrouz healed, I send them out to Torun once more in the hope of gaining a promotion/leader. Notre Dame is due next turn; we're sure to get it.
Great work by Caesar_Augustus and T_McC in pointing out the trade opportunities - it will be an inordinately helpful wonder.

We'll probably be able to start hitting the Magyars within the next 4-5 turns as troops complete - they're the most likely target at the moment.

the save

 

[Caesar_Augustus]

We got Notre Dame! Excellent work team

Nice execution there jack, you played your turns well. Good trading to secure Theology and the Quarry. Bad luck on the flip - if I recall there was a spear and about 4-5 horsemen in Nuremberg also . About the Quarry - the AI will charge you more for a resource if you have buildings/units that you can build with it. So in hindsight it would have been better to buy Quarry from the Abbasids before getting Theology. However, no biggie, since we were able to afford both.

Two bad culture flips so far - with our pathetic culture I don't think we can afford to keep many conquered cities. Looks like raze and re-settle is the best way. Actually, with the regicide-elimination format, killing off the kings and then re-settling our choice of land will be the best way anyway.

Later in the game, we can surge ahead by population by killing the kings of the 'big' civs (hello Byzantines and Abbasids). Nothing like taking out 3 cities and wiping that entire civ off of the planet

@Tech Research. I think we can afford to build up our treasury now and not buy needless techs. The tech that gives us polearms would be nice, but do we really need to buy other techs? Wonders like the Magna Carta sure would be nice, but I doubt we can catch up in time to get it since it's at the end of the tree.

Now that our core has markets and smithies, I think we should focus on Sipahi and Settlers. And although we can't attack the Rus for the next little bit, I think they should definitely be our target in the next 15 turns. Their territory, chockfull of forest and grassland, is where we want to settle the remainder of our cities. Some surgical Sipahi strikes at the 3 cities containing their kings and we'll have the whole northeast of the map to settle.

What's the Byz VP situation off the top of your head, Jack?