RBC13C - Tenacious Turks (Deity)

Turn 9 continued (1062 AD) I ask the chopping workers to end their work and send them north. Paztinak switched to barracks.

I buy Early Siegecraft from Norway for 33 gpt. No way of selling it around. Min science on Jihad now.

IT: [dance] They are using our lands to get to their enemies, and that's NOT us [dance]
Ghuzz, Edrine, Urfa: horse, temple, barracks->settler.

Turn 10 (1062 AD) Well, that wasn't too bad! A horse takes on a vet spear of the Danes and is killed. So no new slaves for our empire.

Kievan Rus doesn't want to pay for our Iron anymore. No other wants iron as I see it.

Cordova doesn't have Early Siegecraft, but just doesn't accept our swap for Jihad, 12 gpt and 590 gold. Same story for Fatimid Caliphate.

To the north, near Gudme, one or two berserk walk around. Take take when taking that city!

1065 AD save
 
Got it (will likely be tomorrow before I get it done though - Meli1 for this evening). I presume we couldn't sell our tar to the Byzantines for tech anymore ?
 
That's what I meant - if we could still sell it to them, wé might have been able to pick up Siegecraft with it.
 
Tar for Siege, and then hopefully Siege + gold for Jihad sounds like a good plan. :goodjob:

Peeked into the editor - Jihad has a cost of 25, while Assasination has a cost of 40. Since Assass. enables our UU, the Arabs will be even more loathe to trade it to us. Looks like it's self-research time.

After Assass, do we really need to research/trade anymore? 6.3.3 for 80 shields is pretty uber and probably the only unit we'll ever need. With our money not going towards techs we could probably upgrade lots more horsemen, as well as rush temples/settlers to help with the domination limit.

Thank god the Magyars didn't declare! Though I had a feeling they weren't going to attack, since they had been streaming units east throughout my turns to hunt barbs, and now need them back west for their war with the Bulgars.

Have the Byz tried connecting their tar to the trade network?
 
I was constantly thinking about the tar deal and this trade you are all mentioning, but somehow my own cry for help at turn 9 confused me. I tried to follow the suggestions as posted but obviously switched off my own brain in the last turn. The Byzantines have no other tech over us. They even don't have Jihad.
 
They probably never will have Jihad either, since the AI rarely researches the expensive entry techs to the other flavours.

Yeah, that Magyar SoD could throw anyone off :eek:

Shouldn't be too much of a hassle though. The Byz are one of the top civs in the game, so hopefully they'll be researching another tech soon that we can trade for.
 
This is the short post: :)

Random Points from Looking at the Save

We should be able to trade Tar to the Byz one more time. They have Tar at Pliska, but I don't think it connects to their road network. The roads all go through Bulgar territory, and they are at war. Odd Fact: The Byz will give us Quarry, 14 gold, and 13 gpt for an MA vs. the Bulgars. Something to keep in mind as we build up troops.

Quarry is worth 11 gpt to the Byz, so we could get Quarry + 13 gpt for Tar, at least it is something.

The Byz WM can be brokered for profit. This can probably be done every turn.

I do think we have to continue research, or at least buying tech. We will want Pikes and Swiss Mercs, and also Markets. Plus, there are a couple of Wonders that we could really use. The first is available with Medieval Warcraft, the Bayeaux Tapestry (Sun Tzu's). The second comes with Parliament, the Magna Carta (FP + Town Hall in every city.) Our current capital can do 20 spt when properly configured, and if we get a Leader to jump the Palace can start building before the Tech is available. Just something to consider.

Seigecraft can be traded for 2 Bulgar workers (260 gold value).

Why are the Rus mad at us? We could trade Iron to them for Quarry + change, since they can build 'zerks, and don't have Horses to build Cataphracts, Iron isn't all that useful to them, but maybe it will make them happier.
 
Now comes the long one. :D

I say up front that this is not a critique of Aggie's (or anyone else's) turns, it is just something I wanted to put together for my own benefit.

We have a sprawling empire (22 cities already), and the war declarations are flying fast and furious. It is easy for a game to get unfocused, as any short-term plan we make is changed by a new situation on the ground. So I took a good look at our empire, and tried to figure out what each of our cities could best do for us. Our empire as a whole will benefit from individual cities becoming more focused on a limited range of tasks (big military, small military, workers/settlers, employing specialists). There is still plenty of time for infrastructure builds to pay off, and some cities can really benefit from a building or two.

These are the notes from my walk through our cities:

City Review
Ghuzz (capital), 16 spt, happy at size 8. Can hit 20 spt with two mines and stopped growth at size 8. Should not be building a settler. Should be building Horses and Swords. When Palace jumps, will still have 15 spt if kept 1st ring. Working all the "proper" tiles. No other useful buildings possible at present.

Konya, 1st ring. 4 spt (20% corruption). Temple is good, MP is better. Border expansion only nets 1 plains and 2 deserts, tiles that will not be worked unless city is > size 12. A granary is also an excellent choice, as city is on river. With 2nd MP is happy to size 6 (more likely 7 due to lux tax). Good candidate for cheap troops and economic improvements. No tiles with both 2 food and 2 shields makes a weak case for a Smith. Build order of Spear/Sword/Horse -> Granary will have Granary complete before 2nd growth. Strong candidate for a Town Hall.

La Brea, 1st ring. 5 spt, 33% corrupt. Happy at size 5 w/o temple, 6 w/Temple. Temple is only of marginal use, but Granary is not a great idea either. Temple only pulls in water tiles, which city will never use. MP is a better idea, and city is a strong candidate for a Town Hall. May be worthy of a Smith after a Town Hall. Needs worker labor on Plains.

Khazar, 1st ring. 4 spt, 10% corrupt. Maxed at size 6, would be happy if it had a 2nd MP. Building settler. Temple, Town Hall, Granary are pointless. City can pull 8 spt at size 6 w/break-even food. Excellent candidate for Smith, solid troop producer. Probably shouldn't be building pop-based units.

Urfa, 1st ring. 3 spt, ~25% corrupt. Needs a lot of worker attention, as it is poaching tiles from other productive cities. Will max out at size 6, so 2 MP should keep it happy. At size 6 should do 8 spt, and work only tiles in its first ring of 8. Another solid troop producer. Granary is a possibility. Not a great candidate for a Smith, as it has too much overlap with other cities to have enough tiles for the factory to pay off. A Temple here does nothing but increase national culture. Building a settler. Another city that should probably not build pop-based units.

--------

Salonika, 2nd ring. 2 spt, 50% corrupt. A Temple here is good, as it is on a river, slightly pressured, and border expansion pulls in BG for a few cities. Strong candidate for a Town Hall, maybe even before Temple. Town Hall would pay for itself immediately in increased taxes. Three BG's means can be a troop producer despite being in 2nd ring. Good candidate for some rushed buildings.

Aydin, 2nd ring. 4 spt, ~40% corrupt. On a river, good candidate for a Temple, as it needs the expanded tiles to reduce competition with other cities. Will be happy to size 7 (or 8) with a Temple, and will pull about 6 spt with some more worker attention. Pre-palace jump, excellent candidate for a Town Hall. Post-Palace jump, excellent candidate for a Smith. Troop producer, and future first ring site.

Iznik, 2nd ring. Future home of our Palace. 5 spt, 33% corrupt. Our Palace is already 800 shields, so will have to be a leader-rush. Will be a strong troop producer. Good candidate for a Smith now, maybe even a Town Hall. Strong candidate for a Granary, even before the Town Hall or Smith. No Barracks, so alternative is to produce troops for MP. No bonus food, so shouldn't build pop-based units. Lots of conflict with other cities over tiles.

Mugla, 2nd ring. 1 spt (and little prospect of more), 50% corrupt. Will max out at size 6, 44 turns before Granary completes. With bonus food, excellent candidate for building workers or settlers, and employing specialists. This will be the "odd-man out" when assigning tiles that are in competition between cities. Not a place to spend any money on building upkeep. When the Palace jumps, use MP instead of Temple to quell the populous. Can run 2nd specialist at present, or let it grow and employ 2nd specialist in 4 turns.

------

Riza, 3rd ring. 1 spt, ~67% corrupt. Not under cultural pressure, no real need for a Temple. Town Hall will pay for itself. Otherwise a good candidate for workers and settlers. Can be re-evaluated after Town Hall, at 50% corruption can do some troop building if it can expand its borders. Until then, MP is much better for happiness.

Ankara, 3rd ring. 1 spt, ~67% corrupt. Maxes out at size 6, Temple only increases national culture. At size 6, can work all plains in "initial 8". Expanded borders grab more uncontested plains. Town Hall is a worthy addition, city can produce cheap troops or workers for now, as it runs out of 2-food tiles at size 3. After some worker attention, Granary and Barracks could be useful. With a Town Hall, may pull 5 spt at size 6 and break-even food.

Patzinak, 3rd ring. 5 spt, 50% corrupt (w/Town Hall). Unhappy at size 7, needs two more MP. If it had a Granary would be our best candidate for workers/settlers. I think we have enough corrupt towns to spit our workers, and need another troop producer, so no issue with Barracks. With one more MP, can pull 7 spt for 3-turn spears. Strong candidate for Smith, after Palace jump. Will be a monster when it is 1st ring. Could hit 25 spt.

Edrine, 3rd ring. 4 spt, 65% corrupt. Needs a Town Hall, then can be a troop producer. No need to build a settler here, allowing it to stay larger than size 6 gets us two more unit support. Contains our Relic. Needs more worker attention so it can relinquish tiles to Iznik. Also could stand a few mined plains.

Sinop, 3rd ring. 1 spt, 85% corrupt. May be a 1/1 city. Barracks is useful as "forward-healing" location. Otherwise should build workers/settlers. After Palace jump, could make good use of Town Hall. If we get flush with cash, probably worth rushing one here regardless of Palace location, as the improvement would pay for itself. City could use a Temple for border expansion. Will be a terrific city after Palace jump, but is garbage now.

----

Ferrouz, boonies. 1/1. Running a Specialist. No reason not to, as it triples the tax income or provides our lone scientist. Building a regular spear, subscribing to the theory of defense by volume. May be better as a Catapult, as we now have the technology. Could stand to move one MP back to Patzinak. When we build vet spears, we may want to shuffle some here and move the reg. Warriors back to the core for MP. Crap city that should build units, preferably Cats. If we can trade for Quarry, should build Walls here.

Izmit, boonies. 1/1. Maxed at size 6, could be running two specialists. Barracks, and building vet Spears. May be worth rushing a Town Hall, as it would gain back the 1 gold upkeep, and double the production rate of Spears. Since the city is on the border, and has Barracks, Spears are the proper build. Again, if we get Quarry, build Walls. Can move King unit to Patzinak, to get him off the front lines and get another tile into play in Patzinak.

Bursa, boonies. 1 spt, 85% corrupt. Running a necessary clown. Building vet Spears. Needs two more MP. Town Hall more useful than Temple. Again, proper build is vet Spears, and Town Hall doubles production rate. But most critically needs MP, and growth to size 7 for extra unit support. Will be a good city after Palace relocation. For now, growth above size 7 can support specialists.

Kafa, boonies. 1/1. On verge of unhappiness at size 4. Building a regular Horse. Could be a Settler. Not on front lines, can build workers and settlers. A border expansion here or in Edrine pulls in another Horse. (Expansion will happen in 4 turns.)

Bolu, boonies. 1/1. Not under cultural pressure, building a Temple. Expanded borders will pull in 4 Mountains and 2 plains. Most productive things city can build are workers or Cats. No need for further worker attention, city will run specialist at size 4.

Antalya, boonies. 1 spt, 90% corrupt. On river and border. Has a necessary Temple, should be allowed to grow to size 7 and then run specialists. Barracks not a bad idea for "forward-healing" location. Will be overrun by Byz if they start the war. Does not require any more worker attention. Town Hall could more than pay for itself. With Barracks, city should build Spears or Cats, and Town Hall would double rate.

Denizli, boonies. 1/1, not on River. May be on front lines, but those are the boonies for the Byz too. Best use may be workers. Needs no further worker attention. Maybe a Barracks for healing.

Bingol, boonies. 1/1. Not on front lines. Temple doesn't help much, and city runs out of two-food tiles at size 4. Good worker producer.


So the short version of this is that I feel we are better off having the outlying cities supply the workers, and the core building troops while keeping its population up. We would also benefit from concentrating our workers in the core, and working our way out to the boonies. Unfortunately, it is a natural tendency to resist marching a worker 20 tiles back to the core without stopping to do something along the way.

I also feel we can still derive real benefits from Town Halls, and that in most cases we are better off with a 20-shield Spear than a 60-shield Temple.

Just my way of trying to organize my thoughts for my turn (and it's not even my turn yet! :p)
 
I'll have more analysis later, but for the moment I just wanted to give you a :goodjob: for such an excellent post McClure. I for one will admit I've been neglecting such fundamentals as city builds and micromanagement in favour of overzealously concentrating on wooing Theodora and on making screenshots in Paintshop ;).

We have a long way to go, and planning posts such as this will help us out immensely. Again, kudos.

Edit: Typos
 
Sorry for the brief report, it's well past bedtime and I'm already feeling a lil' woozy

IHT: There's still way too many Magyars for comfort in and around our lands, but I'll let it slide:

Looking over our cities, I think I concur largely with T_McC (thanks for the great analysis by the way ! Made my job a whole lot easier :D ) :
Ghuzz swapped to horse
Konya to spear
La Brea to smith (which should at least be useful during the GA)
Khazar to horse
Urfa to horse
Bolu to Town Hall
Sinop to temple (which will give Mugla a river forest too)
Izmit - king moved out to Patzinak as suggested & 2 specialists hired as suggested
Ferrouz - releases the reg horse which will become part of our strike force
Kafa to settler (no place to plop one down now, but we can use 'em later on)
No changes elsewhere just yet

1068 AD (1) Patzinak Barracks - horse. We can get quarrry for tar, but what can we really use it for ? I'm going to just hold off on trading it to the Byzantines until we can get something useful for it. Not too long though since they might hook it up soon.

1071 AD (2)
Ghuzz - horse -> horse
Ferrouz spear -> cat
Konya spear -> horse.

I'm putting together a force capable of taking the Danish city of Gudme and then maybe continuing North towards Tours. I actually think that once we've got enough horses we can go grab some Kievan border cities too, but we'll need a lot of them.

1074 AD (3) A French horse appears near Izmit; Gudme due to be attacked next turn.

IT The French horse suicides itself against the Izmit spear but bunches more French troops appear- 7 swords, 2 horses, 2 archers, covered by several spears. Which is not good. The Danes move a spear out of Godme :hmm:.

1077 AD (4) We capture Godme at the cost of a sword, but still have to pay 20 gold for peace to the Danish. The French however give us 6 gold - the price of a horse (I had to get out of the war with Denmark to get the French peace). Since we have to do *somethign* with our troops, I'm going to try a strike on Kievan Rus next - given enough troops, obviously.

I establish an embassy with Abbasids for 78 gold - not because we really want to ally or anything, but we want to be able to steal, don't we :)

1080 AD (5) Nothing much

1083 AD (6) Abbasids complete the Bayeux Tapestry :eek: And there's a massive barb uprising reported near Konya :(

1086 AD (7) 16 barb horsemen appear in the Konya/Risa region. We have 5 horsemen and a regular warrior in the vicinity. You do the math.
Rather than lose our by now sizable treasury, I empty Risa, frag the barb camp and buy Jihad from the Fatimids for Early Siegecraft, WM, 579 gold and 17gpt. Only 40 turns to go till our UU now.

1089 AD (8) Keshiks have a ball in Risa, killing 2 pop and wiping out ~25 shields of temple construction, but that should be the last uprising we get to encounter. Edrine builds a settler that I don't know what to do with (we have another one due to found a city in 2 turns) but we can likely use later. After some thought, I think he's best off founding a city between Bingol and La Brea to fill in the territory.

I hire a couple more tax collectors where appropriate.

IT I'm sure y'all wanted to know that the Bulgars and Cordova signed a peace treaty :ack:

1092 AD (9) Found the city of Zonguldak on our Southwestern border, adding 4gpt total to our income. Almost all of our horses are now gathered in Salonika, but it occurred to me that the two Magyar cities nearest to us (Szombathy and Dobrich) might also be a valid target. Choices, choices....anyway, I think we can't attack anyone until we have at least 15 horses anyway given the amount of troops the AIs can send at us.

Techwise, both Medieval Combat and Viking Sagas are out there. If we get Viking Sagas, we might be able to build the Norse Sagas in Ghuzz for an early Heroic Epic (which is almost a must given the economic need for a palace relocation).

1095 AD (1) The Byzantines have wiped out the Bulgars - who's next ? We can still sell tar to the Byzantines, although the map shows an instance of it in their new Bulgarian territory :confused:. Still only Quarry, WM and spare change on the table for it though.

1095 AD save
 
lurker's comment:
Good stuff! It is fun reading your stuff, and T_McC your analysis post is inspiring even if I don't think I can do something like that for a good while yet... nor where to find the time.

In any case I just wanted to drop a note wishing you good luck and to thank Cesar for a fine piece of inspiration which I went and played with for a bit over here on page three.

Thanks and keep up the skeer!
 
@Kabuki: Glad you're enjoying the game! Playing as the Turks gives all sorts of chances for fun role playing. I'll be sure to check out your thread.

Re Quarry: I don't think we should ever trade for this pathetic excuse of a resource. Check it out:
Image21.jpg

We don't need Aqueducts, since they're in the Byz tree (plus we get hospitals as the Arabs, and they do the same thing). With the tech pace and Diety bonus we probably won't build any wonders - but there are other ways to get Notre Dame :hammer: . Get gold for the tar though - they should have that Bulgarian tar hooked up shortly.
 
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