RBD 4: Introduction to Emperor
- Thread starter Carbon_Copy
- Start date
Jaffa Tamarin
Monkey Cult
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Messages
- 570
And check out the histograph as I'm starting my turn, with Germans and Aztecs almost down to the vanishing point 
(BTW, the culture histographs shows Aztecs still at half our total. There's no way they've got that much culture in their one remaining city, so I'm guessing it still counts the culture they contributed in cities that now belong to other Civs?)
(BTW, the culture histographs shows Aztecs still at half our total. There's no way they've got that much culture in their one remaining city, so I'm guessing it still counts the culture they contributed in cities that now belong to other Civs?)
Attachments
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Yeah, culture is a running sum. When it appears to "slip", it's not because your culture is declining, but because its growth has slowed relative to the growth of others. A "shrinking" culture just means that your sum as a % of the whole world's total is shrinking. You can even still be outgrowing all the other civs in culture per turn and STILL slowly losing ratio % of the whole, if you started out with a huge lead via early temples, while all the other civs had nothing but their palace for the first few thousand years.
- Sirian
- Sirian
Jaffa Tamarin
Monkey Cult
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Messages
- 570
Not much to report, really. At start of turn I sold Germany one of our spare iron for 8 gold/turn, and put Delphi on temporary food shortage to complete Newton's in 9 turns. And I vetoed production of a warrior in Antioch. Hope that wasn't part of some vital long-term strategic plan 
For the rest of the turn, I built riflemen and infrastructure, watched Babylonian knights and Indian elephants on manouevres, and started railroading after steam power came in.
Oh yes, and Karachi revolted to us in 1275. That was unexpected. With 3 Indian and 3 Babylonian citizens, and right next to the Indian capital, I didn't much like our chances of hanging onto it. In fact, I so didn't like our chances, I took the free rifleman and left it undefended for a couple of turns.
Somewhat to my surprise, Karachi is still ours at the end of my turn. I've allowed it to have a spearman for defense
Delphi started on Wall Street after we built Newton's. I intended this as a placeholder for Universal Suffrage -- don't think Wall Street is going to be much use to us for a while, with our feeble treasury.
For the rest of the turn, I built riflemen and infrastructure, watched Babylonian knights and Indian elephants on manouevres, and started railroading after steam power came in.
Oh yes, and Karachi revolted to us in 1275. That was unexpected. With 3 Indian and 3 Babylonian citizens, and right next to the Indian capital, I didn't much like our chances of hanging onto it. In fact, I so didn't like our chances, I took the free rifleman and left it undefended for a couple of turns.
Somewhat to my surprise, Karachi is still ours at the end of my turn. I've allowed it to have a spearman for defense
Delphi started on Wall Street after we built Newton's. I intended this as a placeholder for Universal Suffrage -- don't think Wall Street is going to be much use to us for a while, with our feeble treasury.
Assuming nobody minds, I may take a turn occasionally on a weekend on a sort of jump-in basis. Similar arrangements have been made in the other 2 succession games I've been participating in, but this is the one I was actually most interested in since it was the only one on Emperor difficulty.
Not this weekend though...
I wonder if the new Aztec capital will start converting some of the Indian cities up on the peninsula? Indian culture seems pretty weak. We might want to starve Karachi and let it rebuild our citizens to reduce its flip-factor.
Not this weekend though...
I wonder if the new Aztec capital will start converting some of the Indian cities up on the peninsula? Indian culture seems pretty weak.
We might want to starve Karachi and let it rebuild our citizens to reduce its flip-factor.
Carbon_Copy
Elemental
If you call it, you can have it. Maybe next week.
OneInTen
Darkness bound
OK, got it, will play tonight.
OneInTen
Darkness bound
Well, I was certainly cursed with "interesting" times.
Seeing as we were trying to build railways, I decided that double worker rate looked attractive and a switch to democracy might be nice.
Unfortunately, at the same time the Babs decided we looked like a nice target for war. In 1320 they declared war with us. Heaps and heaps of horses spotted on the hills. It didn't look good.
Unfortunately, nobody would even consider allying with us. Oh dear, we're on our own. Maybe crossing Joanie wasn't such a great idea ...
In short, we were slaughtered. We've lost 3 of our western cities, all of which were heavily defended. We had a great leader, but he got lost in the crossfire.
I don't see a way out of this hole - we were in anarchy for about 8 turns, and in desperation I chose despotism when we came out. Ouch, pop rushing is expensive for this age of units! Probably a bad idea, but by this stage I'd given up on our chances anyway.
Sorry if I didn't play the war very well, but I just didn't see a way we could win so found it hard to get the motivation to try to hard.
In short I think I stuffed up by going into anarchy when the babs still hated us and we were fairly thin on the ground in terms of units. And it looks like we've lost because of it.
Oh well.
Seeing as we were trying to build railways, I decided that double worker rate looked attractive and a switch to democracy might be nice.
Unfortunately, at the same time the Babs decided we looked like a nice target for war. In 1320 they declared war with us. Heaps and heaps of horses spotted on the hills. It didn't look good.
Unfortunately, nobody would even consider allying with us. Oh dear, we're on our own. Maybe crossing Joanie wasn't such a great idea ...
In short, we were slaughtered. We've lost 3 of our western cities, all of which were heavily defended. We had a great leader, but he got lost in the crossfire.
I don't see a way out of this hole - we were in anarchy for about 8 turns, and in desperation I chose despotism when we came out. Ouch, pop rushing is expensive for this age of units! Probably a bad idea, but by this stage I'd given up on our chances anyway.
Sorry if I didn't play the war very well, but I just didn't see a way we could win so found it hard to get the motivation to try to hard.
In short I think I stuffed up by going into anarchy when the babs still hated us and we were fairly thin on the ground in terms of units. And it looks like we've lost because of it.
Oh well.
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Since Carbon is occupied until Tues at the earliest, and Zed is offline during weekdays, I went ahead and jumped in here. I hope that's OK with everybody.
OneInTen: Don't fret, all is not lost. The overweight woman has not yet put in her appearance on the stage. (Fat Lady hasn't sung yet). Going to Despotism wasn't the best move, but frankly, it's not as bad as it looked. With oppressive war weariness still hanging over our heads from the last war, even if you had taken us to democracy, we MIGHT NOT have been able to stay there anyway, not with the Babs coming this hard. Where we are going to have go now is... Monarchy. That would have been the best move you could have made for us, but there was always the hope that the Babs would hold off longer, and we could get an industrial base in place. Guess not, but we'll get there.
Our losses certainly sting, but Akkad was just a reach on my part (and now it's been razed, so the Babs don't have it either). Fort Sirian was just military buffer, it has actually rather served its purpose for the moment, which was to buy us time. Losing silk town is the one that stings, but only for the luxury. It was too corrupt to do much of anything for us beside more military buffer, and that's about all it's worth to Hammi as well.
All of our valuable producers are still intact at the end of your turn.
Poprushing definitely not the way to go, though.
Inherited Turn: First order of business, open up F1, click "Normal" and change to "War Time." Let's roll.
There's a cav in the field with 1 hp left. I use our normal immortals from some eastern city, shipped in by rail, to go out and take them down. (The immortals will be slaughtered on the Babs' turn, but trading immortal for cav is a must do at this point).
Finally, I kill all science. We will need a robust military budget to upgrade our many pikes to rifle. We're only going to bring in enough cash on each turn to upgrade 1.5 pikes, but that beats 0 by a long measure.
I leave a couple of eastern cities on vital infrastructure. Everyone else is now building units.
1355: Oh man, Hammi's got enough thoroughbreds to run the Kentucky Derby. All by himself. Well, OK, we really could use a hand here. "Um... Ghandi? Yes, sir, we'll give you Steam if you jump in here. Oh you will? That's simply splendid! Thank you very much. Yes, we have boxcars by the bushel lined up in Arbela, waiting to haul your jumbos to the front lines, just step this way, please. Very good."
1360: India enters the war in earnest. Hammi burns Calcutta to the ground. Babs mostly target the arriving Indian troops. I do some more counterattacks on exposed, wounded knight/cav and get kills, but of course every unit so spent will be slaughtered by the Babs in turn, and we're running out of spare immortals to be doing this with.
1365-70AD: Hammi pillages land around Flora. Our newly trained knight takes out a cav. Much bloodshed by all three armies.
In 1370, I decided we had upgraded enough pike to rifle, and trained enough new troops -- and India had enough troops in the field, helping us -- that we could bite the bullet and revolt again. I prayed for 4 or 5 turns, got 5! Whew. At least it wasn't another nasty 8 jobber.
1375-90: India's troops dry up, as do almost all the rest of our expendables. We lose about seven (7!) rifles in this span, most in the field in various capacities (fortified on hills even) and two inside Flora. Hammi's got a couple units in reach of Bombay and even Delphi now, but we are not yet in any danger of losing more cities, even though I had to leave some cities in the back line empty for a short time to shuffle enough reinforcements to the front.
1395AD: Government switched to Monarchy. I dispatched a note to Babylon: "You chose unwisely." The path of our future is now set. This planet ain't big enough for the both of us. One of us is going to have to go, and I don't intend for that to be us.
1400AD: India returns to the action with a couple units, downing three more red cavalry. This war still needs a LOT of care and attention, as it could still be lost, but I think we have weathered the worst of it now, as Hammi is no longer sending stacks, but just trickles. I skimmed draft units off the top in Bombay and Delphi because both had reached max size/food, but we don't want to be overdoing the draft. Stick with production of units for the most part. Shangri-La CAN be set up as a draft-rush site, but needs a cathedral first.
At what point we can go back to research, I'm not sure, but we cannot undo War Time Mobilization until the war ends, and our alliance with Ghandi does not expire until 1455. So until AT LEAST then, all we can build is units or military infrastructure -- or peaceful projects that were started before I mobilized us. It would be nice to have industrialization by that time, but there are still more pikes we could upgrade. Play it by ear. Our number one priority now is just staying alive and not losing any more cities.
Carbon wanted interesting, well we've definitely got that now.
I presume the rest of the order for this turn would go:
Carbon
Jaffa
OneInTen
Buckle up. This is going to be a rough ride and a long haul. When we do get peace... no more Right of Passage for Hammi, ever. We may be stuck in Monarchy, but he's going to be too. It's World War. And Joanie is taking the chance to roll over Germany while the rest of us are occupied.
- Sirian
OneInTen: Don't fret, all is not lost. The overweight woman has not yet put in her appearance on the stage. (Fat Lady hasn't sung yet). Going to Despotism wasn't the best move, but frankly, it's not as bad as it looked. With oppressive war weariness still hanging over our heads from the last war, even if you had taken us to democracy, we MIGHT NOT have been able to stay there anyway, not with the Babs coming this hard. Where we are going to have go now is... Monarchy. That would have been the best move you could have made for us, but there was always the hope that the Babs would hold off longer, and we could get an industrial base in place. Guess not, but we'll get there.
Our losses certainly sting, but Akkad was just a reach on my part (and now it's been razed, so the Babs don't have it either). Fort Sirian was just military buffer, it has actually rather served its purpose for the moment, which was to buy us time. Losing silk town is the one that stings, but only for the luxury. It was too corrupt to do much of anything for us beside more military buffer, and that's about all it's worth to Hammi as well.
All of our valuable producers are still intact at the end of your turn.
Poprushing definitely not the way to go, though.
Inherited Turn: First order of business, open up F1, click "Normal" and change to "War Time." Let's roll.
There's a cav in the field with 1 hp left. I use our normal immortals from some eastern city, shipped in by rail, to go out and take them down. (The immortals will be slaughtered on the Babs' turn, but trading immortal for cav is a must do at this point).
Finally, I kill all science. We will need a robust military budget to upgrade our many pikes to rifle. We're only going to bring in enough cash on each turn to upgrade 1.5 pikes, but that beats 0 by a long measure.
I leave a couple of eastern cities on vital infrastructure. Everyone else is now building units.
1355: Oh man, Hammi's got enough thoroughbreds to run the Kentucky Derby. All by himself. Well, OK, we really could use a hand here. "Um... Ghandi? Yes, sir, we'll give you Steam if you jump in here. Oh you will? That's simply splendid! Thank you very much. Yes, we have boxcars by the bushel lined up in Arbela, waiting to haul your jumbos to the front lines, just step this way, please. Very good."
1360: India enters the war in earnest. Hammi burns Calcutta to the ground. Babs mostly target the arriving Indian troops. I do some more counterattacks on exposed, wounded knight/cav and get kills, but of course every unit so spent will be slaughtered by the Babs in turn, and we're running out of spare immortals to be doing this with.
1365-70AD: Hammi pillages land around Flora. Our newly trained knight takes out a cav. Much bloodshed by all three armies.
In 1370, I decided we had upgraded enough pike to rifle, and trained enough new troops -- and India had enough troops in the field, helping us -- that we could bite the bullet and revolt again. I prayed for 4 or 5 turns, got 5! Whew. At least it wasn't another nasty 8 jobber.
1375-90: India's troops dry up, as do almost all the rest of our expendables. We lose about seven (7!) rifles in this span, most in the field in various capacities (fortified on hills even) and two inside Flora. Hammi's got a couple units in reach of Bombay and even Delphi now, but we are not yet in any danger of losing more cities, even though I had to leave some cities in the back line empty for a short time to shuffle enough reinforcements to the front.
1395AD: Government switched to Monarchy. I dispatched a note to Babylon: "You chose unwisely." The path of our future is now set. This planet ain't big enough for the both of us. One of us is going to have to go, and I don't intend for that to be us.
1400AD: India returns to the action with a couple units, downing three more red cavalry. This war still needs a LOT of care and attention, as it could still be lost, but I think we have weathered the worst of it now, as Hammi is no longer sending stacks, but just trickles. I skimmed draft units off the top in Bombay and Delphi because both had reached max size/food, but we don't want to be overdoing the draft. Stick with production of units for the most part. Shangri-La CAN be set up as a draft-rush site, but needs a cathedral first.
At what point we can go back to research, I'm not sure, but we cannot undo War Time Mobilization until the war ends, and our alliance with Ghandi does not expire until 1455. So until AT LEAST then, all we can build is units or military infrastructure -- or peaceful projects that were started before I mobilized us. It would be nice to have industrialization by that time, but there are still more pikes we could upgrade. Play it by ear. Our number one priority now is just staying alive and not losing any more cities.
Carbon wanted interesting, well we've definitely got that now.
I presume the rest of the order for this turn would go:
Carbon
Jaffa
OneInTen
Buckle up. This is going to be a rough ride and a long haul. When we do get peace... no more Right of Passage for Hammi, ever. We may be stuck in Monarchy, but he's going to be too. It's World War. And Joanie is taking the chance to roll over Germany while the rest of us are occupied.
- Sirian
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Oh yeah, I guess I should attach the file, too.
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Oh one more note: at the end of 1400AD, there were two bab cav in range of Flora with just 1 hp left. I used our last two expendable units, an immortal and a REGULAR WARRIOR, to kill these cavalry off. Watching a regular warrior finish off a cav on a hill was worth the whole deal. I do have more immortals in production at weaker cities, as it's just too costly to use rifles for counterattack (I'm not sure it's worth spending a rifle to take out a cav, although I did so on several occasions -- but that was before India's extra units all went poofie. Now it's down to actual city defense, and our anarchy has ended just in time to build more reinforcements).
Oh the shame of having your cavs ambushed and slain by a pack of stone age warriors!
- Sirian
Oh the shame of having your cavs ambushed and slain by a pack of stone age warriors!
- Sirian
Attachments
Jaffa Tamarin
Monkey Cult
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Messages
- 570
Fine with me. I probably wouldn't have time to take a turn before Wednesday, anyway.
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
I noticed in that screenie that Tenochtitlan has revolted back to Azteca. Poor Hammi. I think we have a decent shot of watching Antioch flip back to us, too, if we don't liberate it first. It's full of our citizens and under border pressure. If Hammi's garrison there lightens up at any point, could be some really bad news for him. And I don't think he would raze it with a Luxury in range. Sure would be awfully nice if a revolt obliterated his stacks of wounded/recovering cavs stationed there.
- Sirian
Poor Hammi. I think we have a decent shot of watching Antioch flip back to us, too, if we don't liberate it first. It's full of our citizens and under border pressure. If Hammi's garrison there lightens up at any point, could be some really bad news for him. And I don't think he would raze it with a Luxury in range. Sure would be awfully nice if a revolt obliterated his stacks of wounded/recovering cavs stationed there. - Sirian
Just think, not too long ago we were thinking of ripping India a new one, and now they're our best buddies! Good thing we didn't piss them off earlier...
[Pep Talk]
I agree 100%, this dance with the Babs has gone on more than long enough. We all know the AI cannot compete with human players in rail-assisted warfare, and we've now got the tech we need to defeat them (Mobilization, Rifles, & Rails -- we might try to get ahold of Military Tradition from France/India as well if we don't have it yet.)
We need to put a serious hurting on the Babs to put them in their place and make it unlikely they will attack us again. Right now they are just too big for their britches. Once we've got a lock on the situation we can go back to peacetime mode and buy up any techs the AIs have gotten ahold of that we haven't found yet (or just get them from the Babs as part of the peace deal? Depends on whether we want cities more.)
The only thing we have to be careful about (other than winning the war) is not getting SO far behind on tech we can't get out of the hole. We can't afford to stay on wartime economy forever either... which means we can't be timid, turtle up, and just wait for the Babs to come to us. Wait until we have the advantage and can consolidate our gains, yes, but we must go on the offense at every reasonable opportunity!
[/Pep Talk]
[Pep Talk]
I agree 100%, this dance with the Babs has gone on more than long enough. We all know the AI cannot compete with human players in rail-assisted warfare, and we've now got the tech we need to defeat them (Mobilization, Rifles, & Rails -- we might try to get ahold of Military Tradition from France/India as well if we don't have it yet.)
We need to put a serious hurting on the Babs to put them in their place and make it unlikely they will attack us again. Right now they are just too big for their britches. Once we've got a lock on the situation we can go back to peacetime mode and buy up any techs the AIs have gotten ahold of that we haven't found yet (or just get them from the Babs as part of the peace deal? Depends on whether we want cities more.)
The only thing we have to be careful about (other than winning the war) is not getting SO far behind on tech we can't get out of the hole. We can't afford to stay on wartime economy forever either... which means we can't be timid, turtle up, and just wait for the Babs to come to us. Wait until we have the advantage and can consolidate our gains, yes, but we must go on the offense at every reasonable opportunity!
[/Pep Talk]
Charis
Realms Beyond
The phrase "You have chosen unwisely" should now induce abject fear in the hearts of the AI's, for there is NO AI alive which was not punished in the most severe ways imaginable for such offenses.
Nice recovery Sirian! Up to Carbon to keep up his good work now. Good to see when (cough) nonoptimal choices do not cost the game, and folks become better players by both seeing the cost of such decisions, and solid ways to recover from them.
Charis
Nice recovery Sirian! Up to Carbon to keep up his good work now. Good to see when (cough) nonoptimal choices do not cost the game, and folks become better players by both seeing the cost of such decisions, and solid ways to recover from them.
Charis
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Well, we're not even remotely close to going on the offensive. It was just 10 turns ago that One declared "it's over". We don't have Military Tradition, and we don't have saltpeter either. Turtle is all we do have: a good enough situation to reach stalemate. We need peace first, so we can pause and build factories and some coal plants, too, and see what we can do about getting our own cavalry online. Also, we're BADLY strapped for lack of artillery. Two or three catapults does not cut the mustard in reducing charging units to scrap before they can do anything. I'd trade Susa for a stack of ten artillery right now.
Once we get factories rolling, then it will be time to mobilize again, and go on the offensive. If we try to attack without the necessary production, resources, and forces in place, we'll just end up worse off. We're in this mess because Babylon was able to defeat the Aztecs. There's just nothing for it, we're going to have to take them out. But there's no sense moving against them until we can accomplish something.
- Sirian
We don't have Military Tradition, and we don't have saltpeter either. Turtle is all we do have: a good enough situation to reach stalemate. We need peace first, so we can pause and build factories and some coal plants, too, and see what we can do about getting our own cavalry online. Also, we're BADLY strapped for lack of artillery. Two or three catapults does not cut the mustard in reducing charging units to scrap before they can do anything. I'd trade Susa for a stack of ten artillery right now. Once we get factories rolling, then it will be time to mobilize again, and go on the offensive. If we try to attack without the necessary production, resources, and forces in place, we'll just end up worse off. We're in this mess because Babylon was able to defeat the Aztecs. There's just nothing for it, we're going to have to take them out. But there's no sense moving against them until we can accomplish something.
- Sirian
Carbon_Copy
Elemental
I should be more careful with what I wish for, as it looks like this one came true. I'll do my best to get 10 or so turns out tomorrow and to not flub them up (no guarantees ).
The situation sounded bleak when One came along with his news, but now I have hope. In the long term, we need to beat Babylon down, if not conquer them outright. We'll never have peace with them as long as they're big and we're not small. I thought the solution to that would be to grow relative to them by consuming all or most of India, but they've forced us to re-think that plan.
I would hate to be Hammurabi's military advisor when he has to relay the news that their modern cavalry got beaten off a hill by men in loincloths wielding stone axes. :rofl: too bad it wasn't an elite warrior, we could have had a Great Leader out of him.
).The situation sounded bleak when One came along with his news, but now I have hope. In the long term, we need to beat Babylon down, if not conquer them outright. We'll never have peace with them as long as they're big and we're not small. I thought the solution to that would be to grow relative to them by consuming all or most of India, but they've forced us to re-think that plan.
I would hate to be Hammurabi's military advisor when he has to relay the news that their modern cavalry got beaten off a hill by men in loincloths wielding stone axes. :rofl: too bad it wasn't an elite warrior, we could have had a Great Leader out of him.
Well, to get factories, we must have peace -- we can't demobilize to make them otherwise. To get peace, we have to convince the Babs that we are not pushovers. Certainly we need to take Antioch aka Silktown back (assuming it doesn't flip back to us) and bloody the Babs nose enough that they are willing to talk about ending the war. We can't do that just sitting in our home cities.
I said take the offensive, but I also said wait until we have the advantage and are able to consolidate our gains. To me, turtling would be just letting the Babs have Antioch and allowing them to dictate when and on what terms the war ends. That will not get us factories any sooner. Yes, we are in a bit of a jam, and we have to be prudent in our offense, but we can't afford to ignore it altogether.
I said take the offensive, but I also said wait until we have the advantage and are able to consolidate our gains. To me, turtling would be just letting the Babs have Antioch and allowing them to dictate when and on what terms the war ends. That will not get us factories any sooner. Yes, we are in a bit of a jam, and we have to be prudent in our offense, but we can't afford to ignore it altogether.
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Just beating up enough of his units CAN lead him to agree to peace without demanding more concessions from us. True, he already took 3 of our cities, so that's more likely to make him bolder, but I wouldn't presume that we HAVE TO take back Antioch to get agreeable peace terms. That may turn out to be true, but be open to other possibilities.
In Apoly2, I had two stalemate "turtle" defensive wars vs India, both extremely dicey and in this same "they came in force, while we had inadequate defenses" situation. Both times, after their attacks were blunted, they PAID ME for peace, albeit only a small sum. Hammi is bleeding quite a bit from this attack now. He is losing on average about four units per turn, most of them pricey horses. All three of us were taking a bloodbath during my turn. I would tend to think that by the time our Alliance expires, and after 30 turns of war, that Hammi would take peace. I'd even bet on it. We can probably even get some concessions, too, minor ones.
- Sirian
In Apoly2, I had two stalemate "turtle" defensive wars vs India, both extremely dicey and in this same "they came in force, while we had inadequate defenses" situation. Both times, after their attacks were blunted, they PAID ME for peace, albeit only a small sum. Hammi is bleeding quite a bit from this attack now. He is losing on average about four units per turn, most of them pricey horses. All three of us were taking a bloodbath during my turn. I would tend to think that by the time our Alliance expires, and after 30 turns of war, that Hammi would take peace. I'd even bet on it. We can probably even get some concessions, too, minor ones.
- Sirian
If we can get peace just beating up his units, fine, but (a) we really need Antioch as a buffer city for the Babs to strike at the next time they come around, and (b) it might be possible, but it doesn't seem very likely, given our relative sizes and the Babs' having taken 3 cities already.
If we don't get Antioch back by the time we're ready to end the war, we should at least do a final offensive to take the city like we did last time around with Akkad, and THEN sue for peace. It would get us that vital buffer zone back and improve our position at the negotiating table. Failing that, we would have to try to get Antioch back at the negotiating table, which may not be easy since it's a luxury center.
If we don't get Antioch back by the time we're ready to end the war, we should at least do a final offensive to take the city like we did last time around with Akkad, and THEN sue for peace. It would get us that vital buffer zone back and improve our position at the negotiating table. Failing that, we would have to try to get Antioch back at the negotiating table, which may not be easy since it's a luxury center.
