Here's a test... Imaging yourself in the French Artillery game rbd5. You're about
to sack a city but find yourself short an attacker. Do you...
a) Virtually cry out "Ye shall not stand up to the might of the glorious
Musketeer onslaught which shall ravage your ruininous village!!"
Then do you muffle a squeal of elation as he wins?!
b) Cry out "Darn iditioc rule! Why on earth would I attack a size 7 city with
a strength 3 attacker! This makes no sense!" Then grumpingly attack and when
he wins say "Hmmm, well that was lucky."
If 'a' you're a nut, but a specific kind of nut that understands the 'rbd' way. If
'b',
you're an independent (and whether you're a nut or not is an orthogonal issue).
A and B have fundamentally different mindsets. They can both be strong players, and
can hook up for some excellent games, but it's going to be at the intersecting
line.
See neither is a monolithic player, both have wide variety of interests, and there
are
scenarios which appeal to the two for very different reaons.
An equally good test is "Do you enjoy the D1 Amazon variant?"
My sense of consistency applies mainly to the gameplay functions, whereas
yours...
runs on a different plane. I confess to not fully relating. I don't understand the
D1 Amazon at all. Not one bit! But you love it and I honor that. Like, in
variant-making
terms you are religious and commercial while I'm militaristic and
industrious.
Hehe, very well phrased!! This isn't new info, we've both recognized it for a
while
Some of your variant stories in D2 I read and thought "cool!" but others were "Well
that
was a good challenge, but... I just don't get it. Glad HE liked it!"
Cretin? Or Cretan? I liked the following page which tells us:
http://www.mindcog.com/Minoan/minoan.htm
Cretan n. one who lives on the Greek Island of Crete in Eastern Mediterranean
Cretin n. a person suffering from cretinism, a congenital deficiency of thyroid
secretion with resulting deformity and idiocy.
Minion n. 1. a favorite, esp. one who is a fawning, servile follower: a term of
contempt
Minoan adj. designating or of an advanced prehistoric culture that flourished in
Crete from c.2800-c.1100B.C.
Ok, on to the matter at hand...
> Neither a desire for simplifying, nor a concern for balance. Rather a disinterest
> in featuring the army unit, combined with distaste for the idea of restricting
> attacks by unit type. The restrictions I offered with city attacks are as far
> as I'm willing to go in that direction in the context of a no-culture game.
I like your writing style. It's clear and reasoned. In this case though, however,
the difference in army and unit restriction interests leaves us at an impasse.
(Arathorn, I appreciate your comments on our interplay at this juncture
)
It's becoming clearer there are three distinct options here, each with a strong
proponent: i) no-culture, clearly focused game, ii) ahooga army army game focus,
not just a little, but BIG time, and iii) a weedy blend of the two fairly heavy
on theme and 'role'. Thank you for taking the time and effort to think about
option one and come right up to the edge of how much of the 'other' aspect you
could handle without it 'detracting' too much in your mind. From my viewpoint
there's a difference in 'unit restrictions' and role of armies in your suggestion
which prohibits us from coming further together on 'ii'. I respect that and have
no problem with it. It's one of those 'different view things' where we looked for
an intersection and saw them come close, but left with a gap unacceptable to both.
What I have to ask next is... since it's a team game is there a clear call on what
others want. Whether it's i, ii or iii, it's ok, we're both wanting clarfication.
This paragraph I write at the beginning of my evaluation, not at the end and did
not edit it afterwards. The choice is: split this up into two separate games,
clarifying strongly the focus and intent of both, or stick with this odd weedy
blend
I've never imposed things on variant/rbd players, just through things out
for them to take or leave, so I won't start now. A SG is inherrently very team
oriented, so if others don't like the weed, no need to force around the pipe!
(OTOH, if some like to try weed, it's ok to let someone who doesn't smoke THAT
type of weed sit out for this one and join up at another party!
)
My initial thought is... this might call for a splitting. And if so the Cretan
game will fall much more into the no culture focus. The role an army would play in
it would totally bend to the needs of the culture and gameplay focus.
> The challenge of the cretin game is managing cities without contentment factors,
> managing the tech race without science factors, managing borders and city
> security from within a deep hole, managing settlement sites and dot maps not
> based on ideal locations, but on border control, managing the diplomatic screen
> without culture (have you TRIED to make a deal from a cultural deficit???),
> managing conquest where captured cities will revolt back at the bat of an
> eyelash, and pulling all of this off together without getting beat to the space
> race or the UN, or getting totally gangraped by the AI's on the alliance front.
> And this isn't enough?
These are points very well taken. Points recognized individually, but hmmm...
in toto? Now I'm wondering
... pauses now to re-read the thread and see just where the interest lies ...
Gung ho army- 1; I'll play anything!-1 ; No culture-3 ; what a great combo!-1
No preference specified-1.
This set of player preferences and some rethinking of the difficulty of no
culture alone leads to think...
Let's do this as a Cretan no-culture game. Drop all army rules completely.
*IF* we keep the Bull as it is, it will just so happen that making an early
army out of the Bulls and doing some blitzing will be a *naturally* good
strategy without having to impose any requirements.
Jaffa, I'm still up for an army game, but would like to see it done up as
a key and strong focus of the game. Think about all the issues mentioned here,
and at any point you come up with a good plan and/or a mod that really brings
out the army, I'm in.
Do be aware that without mods, you're in a position
where bad luck equals no combat until industrial age, at all, and even then
the number of armies you'll have running around will be insufficient to the task.
Ok, phew! With that off the table, let's make this an outstanding and challenging
no culture game! I still like the bull, and the fact that by razing, not
taking over a city, you'll have a LOT more enemy territory to wade through, and
the extra fast unit with blitz ability seems to fit right in. But if that's
thought of as distractive to the no-culture, it can go (sniff ;p )
In this new light, let's re-address some questions or simplify/clarify the rules:
(In doing this I'm 'Sirianizing' his own rules) (Some items are direct quotes
* Our cities may not build any cultural improvements. Ever.
> * The ONLY cities that may build any cultural improvements are the two capitals: the cities with the palaces. These may build any improvements they like: temples, libraries, you name it! These may build any small wonders we are eligible to build, as well as any greater wonders that include as a trait either Military or Industrious. Thus, the forbidden palace had better go into a productive location! Our two palace cities would thus be the only centers of our nation's culture, and we don't have to alter any of the wonders. All other cities are cretinous, no culture.
This won't impact the 'border issue' for all the cities, but it will 'soften'
the AI stance against us as Cretans at the diplo table. Just how hard to you
want to push no-culture? I'm ok with this rule as stated, or an intermediate
one as long as the FP is allowed.
> * Eligible great wonders would include: Pyramids, Great Wall, Hanging Gardens, SunTzu, Leonardo, Shakespeares (neutral wonder), Universal Suffrage, Hoover Dam, Manhatten Project, United Nations. But being restricted to only two locations for building these, would probably cause us some difficulty. Which is good. Our kings and clerics are control freaks.
> * Second Capital must build the Forbidden Palace FIRST, before any other cultural improvments/wonders. (Otherwise, it's not the capital yet!)
Roger.
> * Charis's Minoan Bull UU as described: 3.2.3 Polytheism, Jumbo gfx, 50 shields, but with no upgrade path (always available). No resources required.
I think this still works very well.
> * The draft penalty reduced to 10 turns. (Helps the AI's too, they draft a ton).
Doesn't seem needed, or to fit in to the no-culture theme.
> * All great leaders must be used to build armies!
Gone. Although depending on wonder rules, you might not have much else to do.
> * Pillaging of lands and attacking of enemy units in the field or ships at sea may be done by any units without restriction.
> * A Minoan Bull unit -OR- an army must be present to oversee any attacks on enemy cities. (They must be adjacent to the target city when any attacks are initiated -- they are not required to participate in the attack).
Doesn't even have to be stated, this one is just out. All such city and unit
restrictions are just gone, off the table.
> * We are Xenophobic about enemy culture. We do not capture enemy cities. Ever.
> They must all be burned to the ground.
Works for me. But do you make it a rule or a "jolly DARN good idea" given our
extreme propensity to flip?
> * An army unit must be the first attacker vs any enemy capital! ...
Hmm, was about to auto-toss this one out, but... it's not a bad idea actually.
Can stay or go, afaic.
> * Military and Industrious as Charis suggested, starting techs Warrior Code and Bronze Working as Charis suggested.
Since we're using a scenario file, that's a good choice.
> * Conquest is our only acceptable victory condition. Whether or not to disable any other conditions to be decided. Any result besides a conquest victory means a loss. (If domination is not disabled, we would have to avoid controlling too much land. If culture is not disabled, we would have to avoid accumulating too much culture in our capitals).
I would disable domination, in case we do choose to 'fill in' razed empty land
with our own. I would give AI's a chance with diplo and culture, but if disabled
I wouldn't mind.
> * Instead of replacing the Chinese, let's replace the Zulu's and make sure that Egypt is in the game, so we draw the black color. (Or I can just designate us as black, but then everyone would have to install the color fix files to enable extra colors).
> * No France in the game, to soothe poor Carbon Copy's nerves.
Practical rather than substantive suggestions, and fine.
> I can do the mod in half an hour, but I would need a complete list of Cretan city names and Great Leader names.
You can use the list from my last post.
Basically, the new rules should reflect a total focus on the challenge of
no culture. There's added "interest" from changing civ name and UU, but
they're no longer 'central' features with rules around them.
Comments??
Charis
PS - > (I am wondering what you're thinking in the infantry game, sending the
leader home -- home to do what? The UN's worthless, what we need is more armies
in the field!) -- It was just a few turns away from next leaders' hands, and
I wanted to let him decide. Now Marines are an option for the army, they were
not at his birth. I also wasn't sure if Manhattan was a thought, or if diplo
was disabled)
It was definitely like opening a big-old-can-of-whooparse. But research was already slow, and bully would have to last quite a while to see Mil Tradition. So pretty much, in this quick test, exactly as intended 
I made sure not to go that far in my scenerios, but will have to for a full blown mod. ![[pimp]](/images/smilies/pimp.gif "Pimp [pimp]")
You're trying to Start a New Game? 
I'm not doing that. I'm Loading a Scenerio, starting the game from there, by which it includes the altered rules IN the save file, then distribute the save (and any UU support files/instructions) and wallah.
Like... you want to make SURE we don't go anywhere offensively without armies, but you've got other priorities for the great leaders? I don't see the rationale behind that.![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
Whatever you want works here.
