RBD13 SG - Cretan Army Variant

If there is a problem I can re-zip and repost after work today.

A note on Vai - I left them on max food to get growth back, but I was also mining a hill so they could pull in shields if needy to speed production.

I must have watched 15 or maore Russian units cross us to get at Hastings. Somewhere in there I forgot to mention that Cathy extorted 19g and a territory map from us while she had three horses next to a town defended by only one warrior. She will pay though, as we will have a good army of bull riders in another 20 turns or so. She will also have spent herself against the English. Maybe we can get something out of Lizzie if we assist her with Cathy?
 
The problem with Charis's crashes is local to his machine, the save file's fine. He opted to edit the ini himself to save drive space and probably made a typo or something else equally absentminded. He'll fix it, and worst case: he can fix it by giving up on that idea and doing it the other way.


We have a LOT of land we could expand into. I know our cities don't have much of anything they can build -- won't need granaries if we secure the Pyramids -- but they can build walls, and eventually marketplaces and harbors, and most urgently, MORE WORKERS AND SETTLERS. At some point, we'll probably be running zero science from there on, and buying all our techs. That comes with its own price, but just because there's very little in the way of things to build, does not mean we want to build nothing but units. It's almost always easier to settle land than to go conquer it. Besides, we can't eliminate anybody without an army, and we can't capture any cities, so we need settlers no matter how we slice it. :) And remember, the more cities we found, the more units we can support.

Some war would be good, though: show em who's boss, try and get at least one leader, at least one bull rider army, and get the Epic built so we get lots more leaders. :) But let's not get into the kind of war where we write tales about "A Bridge Too Far".


- Sirian
 
I agree with the need for settlers/workers, and almost did that. However, the question would be were? I thought we needed at least some military to keep from getting extorted to death. Pungentoss can't build anything but units/improvements as it will take 20 turns to regrow. Littos is in a little better shape but both are stuck at a max of two until we can get irrigation to them. Via would make a great setller farm but I saw a settler disappear in two turns due to disease. Thats twice this game that we have had a settler ready there and disease struck! Milia and Helispont will be the only two for now until the Pyramids are finished in Knossos. I put most of the cities with extra production to making bulls as mostly placeholders to pass on to the next person. I think expansion to the south will be very important as well and that is were I planned to send one of the settlers that would have been available on my turn. Lot o' green down there. It is a shame that the dyes are that far into the jungle. We need to get a city there but it will be a while before it could come online.

It is really interesting how much no culture restricts what you can do even this early in the game. A good choice for a challenge.
 
Good points both, and to some degree you've answered your own questions...

> I thought we needed at least some military to keep from
>getting extorted to death.

This is the nice thing: the AI counts "workers" as part of your total "unit" count strength. In their weedy eyes, a worker and a battleship and a mech inf count the same when it comes to "attitude" toward us and extortion.

> Via would make a great setller farm but I saw a settler
> disappear in two turns due to disease. Thats twice this game
> that we have had a settler ready there and disease struck!
That *IS* bad luck and bad timing. I was about to make this comment: "But there's the answer there too... get a worker there, out of Vai if possible, and clear the jungle immediately surrounding Vai" then I remembered... the problem is a flood plain not a jungle :smoke:

> We need to get a city there but it will be a while before it could
> come online.

Nod. And seeing the "lanes" play out, we'll likely want to count down in chunks of 4 lines and pick the right grid coordinate for 'dye city'

I do think having a rax in a town not stuck building a wonder and having a FEW bull riders is a key point to flexibility though. With that, and a next step or workers improving the land and a settling push, we'll be able to change gears quickly to war if and when it comes to it. As far as timing though... everyone has a 'top' defender in spearman right now, it won't get beat until Feudalism and the Pikeman. So basically, an ancient era war too early would probably not be as effective as prosecuting it such that it's over as they get Feudalism.

With no capturing, whether now or later, we will NEED the infrastructure and settler farms already in place to consolidate land gains, otherwise we simply cannot hold them. The other option is a much more 'limited war' approach where you hop in, hit them HARD, for example razing a resource city, razing their capitol or such, and setting them back so hard you can come back later to finish the job. With that approach you don't wipe out as much as cripple states, and the time you lose in each campaign focusing on military, you get make up when you sign the peace treaty.

Charis
 
Some points in defense of ancient wars:

- a little gain gets to grow exponentially throughout the rest of the game. If we beat them back 10% at a cost of 3% to us, we're probably ahead in the long run, as it'll take us less to wipe them out later.

- a 3/2/3 as early as the bull rider is an AWESOME weapon that can really get us TONS of tribute from beaten civs.

- Even one great leader can make up for the whole war effort. Being militaristic, we have a good shot at it. Whether it's an army (for more beating) or an incredibly early FP (really works wonders) or an ancient wonder (what others can we build? Great Wall? OK, probably not worth it)

- Movement of *3* means our bulls can get to the front incredibly fast. The longer we can stay ancient age, the better our bulls work for us. Killing/wounding civs helps that goal.

- Extortion works FOR us instead of against us. (BTW, are we allowed to extort cities? I know we can't conquer 'em, just raze 'em, but can we demand them?)

If I were playing, I'd build 6 or so bulls and attack England. Beat 'em up a bit and sue for big $$$ in peace. Then swing around after Russia. Find somebody else and beat on them. Hack and slash our way across the continent while all they have are spearmen. We can still kill pikes with bulls, but it'll take longer.

Kinda just playing devil's advocate,
Arathorn
 
Solid points, if anything the dominance of a 3.2.3 is something that would be a utter and shameful waste to ignore. They'll HAVE to strut their stuff sometime before their match appears on the battlefield. Also, if anyone gives us any guff, I would take the gloves of riding these puppies! :hammer:

> If we beat them back 10% at a cost of 3% to us, we're probably ahead in the long run, as it'll take us less to wipe them out later

> If I were playing, I'd build 6 or so bulls and attack England. Beat 'em up a bit and sue for big $$$ in peace. Then swing around after Russia. Find somebody else and beat on them.

Indeed! that's what I meant with "The other option is a much more 'limited war' approach where you hop in, hit them HARD, for example razing a resource city, razing their capitol or such, and setting them back so hard you can come back later to finish the job."

So basically there are two types of war, conquest campaigns and 'tactical' campaigns where you get 80% of the gain with 20% of the effort of the conquest, but also a long time enemy. I think we're both suggesting that some 'tactical' campaigns in the ancient era bears very strong consideration, and the benefit would be great. (Also, our cultural stance gets weaker and their culture buildings get stronger as time goes on. Between that and our suh-weet UUs, time is not a great friend to the Cretans)

Hmmm... let me toss out one other thing, and it's a key factor! If we get a bit more infrastructure going, and settle significantly more cities, and time it so we're 'geared' toward handling war the same time that the peaceful expansion phase is over, our first bull-vs-AI victory will kick off our GA, and might be just the trick needed to get a FP spot chosen and built. Having the happen now would likely be quite a waste. Hmmm... wouldn't want to still be in despotism during GA would we? :eek: Perhaps a good prep for both war and infrastructure is Monarchy. We're almost there with Polytheism anyway.

Thanks,
Charis
 
Most good. I forgot about Golden age. Remember though, we can't raze those capitals until we have an Army. We really need two Great Leaders quickly. One for first army to allow us to raze capitols, and a second to get us the FP. With only two cities open to building any wonders, I would think the FP city is needed sooner than later. Somewhere between the current Russian and English positions might be good. GA would be nice if timed to have things to build when it happens.

Vai could be used to output all of our workers if it continues to have disease hit every time it grows. Just have growth and worker finish at same time. I wonder if they turned disease up for 1.17. I have had cities surrounded completely by jungle that never had disease like that.

I think that all of this will be settled by the time it gets back to me anyway. Seems that Warstrike and Xrang will have to decide that somewhere on their watch, unless Schnaard gets radical.

As Sirian pointed out before we started, we will have to bet the "tech" out of the AI to win this one.

I didn't check to see who would give more if we allied with them Russia or England......maybe we can play merc as well.

EDIT:
I also wanted to comment a the extortion of cities....I think that the Minaon's would never do so. Why would we want their weak cities when we can burn them and then start our own. Could we take them and then disband the city? Seems a little like cheating.
 
Oh, I am up. Guess I lost the roster list with all the posting after the turn summary. :rolleyes: Well, anyway, got it.
 
Schmutzig was the son of a Minoan pig farmer, and as such did not like to take frequent baths. In fact, he was afraid of just plain water. Consequently, he was well known for his foul-smelling odor and uncouth manner; a perfect candidate for the Minoan emporer. He ascended the Minoan throne because of an invitation to court by Meldor. When Schmutzig appeared in court, his smell, combined with jungle-heat and cramped quarters, killed or brain-damaged Meldor and all his advisors. The people of Minos, impressed with Schmutzig's odious (and odorous) nature, immediately called for him to be instated as absolute ruler.

Since not many could stand his smell, the first thing Schmutzig did as emporer was to found his own private residence - Foul Odors. :p There, an entire population of unwashed cretins (yes, that's spelled correctly ;) ) found their home.

Schmutzig's reign was also notable for the training of the "bull rider," a mighty beast capable of completely leveling entire cities with the flick of a tail. With these mighty creatures, Schmutzig envisioned the destruction of all neighboring "cultured" civilizations, with their "temples" for "worship." The only worship Schmutzig knew was the worship of the ruins of towns (well, that and the skunk-god to whom he payed homage ;) )

Schmutzig also oversaw the training of many citizens to settle distant lands, including some that would settle an area in which "silks" could be found to pacify the Minoan people. There was a brief period of time where it was feared that the Russians would violate the silks with their blasphemous temples, but Schmutzig stood upwind of the Russian settling party and drove them to the desert, away from the precious silks (actually, I used blockade tactics, but you get the point ;) ).

Schmutzig's apparent "death" came quickly and suddenly. His son, Schmutzigchen, played a prank on Schmutzig by locking him in the royal closet. When the closet was finally forced open, it revealed an comatose Schmutzig, knocked unconcious by his own smell. Schmutzig never reawakened from his coma, and he was stored in a skunk burrow in Foul Odors, awaiting his reawakening.

Miscellaneous notes:

Right now we only have three bull riders. However, just a few more will make a formidable force. I never realized until I used them, but the bull rider might be too powerful - that extra movement and the fact that they can blitz is really huge. I think a force of six or seven of them (maybe even less!), if used properly, could almost destroy an entire civ at this point (at least one without swords and none of the civs closest to us have iron hooked up).

The Egyptians and Russians signed a military alliance against England - not good since they will be concentrating on military, making our job harder.

The Chinese started the Pyramids - but unfortunately for them, we are 10 turns away. :D Oh, and also about the capitol: did we decide that it could build any cultural buildings, or just limited wonders?

I've got several cities building settlers, but a few can be changed to bull riders. I'd prefer that most of them build the settlers, though, since there is still a lot of land to expand to. Also, there's a settler on the way to the Russian silks. Luxuries are going to be especially important to us without any other happiness modifiers like temples.

Here's the roster.

Sirian
Charis
Arathorn
Jaffa
Meldor
Schnarrd (nope, not Schnaard - still waiting for Charis to realize that there aren't two a's in my screen! :D )
Warstrike << up
Xrang << on deck

By the way, if you don't understand the joke behind the name "Schmutzig," it's a German word that means - well, actually I don't want to spoil it. If you've got a spare minute, look it up on a translator. :D
 
That's weird. For some reason it posted twice.
 
In a nutshell, you both like to alter the standard game in different ways, and for different reasons, but you both have a blast doing it, and can play together while doing it. :smoke: [pimp] :smoke: [pimp]
 
The line of Charis just canNOT seem to get away from charges of use of the forbidden pungent weed. On investigation, the following key points of evidence were found:

- He followed out the "ini" edit flawlessly, then proceeds to name the file "Minoan Bull.ini" instead of "Bull Rider.ini"
- Tis true he has misspelled the name of the line of Schmutzig (nice name and tale their btw!), as Schnaard. Ack!!! (My bad!)
- On FURTHER investigation, this is the same mistake in calling an rbd fellow named Graarrg as Graaarg (or something like that, i still can't get it straight!)
- He has misspelled the seat of government location as "capitol" for several weeks now, when in fact it is "capital". The latter is 'seat of government' or 'of primary importance', while the former is, and I quote: (http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=Capitol)

1. The temple of Jupiter, at Rome, on the Mona Capitolinus, where the Senate met.

2. The edifice at Washington occupied by the Congress of the United States; also, the building in which the legislature of State holds its sessions; a statehouse.

(So the Capitol is in our Capital? lovely 8-\ )


The verdict...
... Guilty!!! :rolleyes:

On other notes...

- I think consensus was any mil or indust wonder, and any small wonder, but not the normal buildings. (It was however, thrown open to popular demand among the players. If all want a Library and University of Crete, it wouldn't make a big difference)

- Meldor - I don't think city extortion makes any sense either,
and tnx for the reminder vs capital destruction.

- Is the Bull Rider too strong? Borderline yes. It's actually not inappropriate compared to the Chinese Rider in terms of strength, shields and distribution (the latter is 4.3.3). The difference is in when they come. Rider has longbow offense and pike defense, which is equiv to best offense and best def of the ear, plus lightning speed. Identical with Bull Rider, same def as spear, same off as swordsmen. The need for resources is different, but not a huge difference. The blitz was basically added for the Cretans specifically to give just a slight boost due to our rules and that... to get to it you need to "waste" early research on ceremonial burial (yet not use temple) and Polytheism.

- Mavfin - welcome! Get some single player time on the diff below Monarch then join a Monarch succession game where we don't hamstring ourselves TOO much :p

Good luck warstrike and xrang,
Charis
 
I promise not to use any weed during this upcoming turn...
How do you guys make your turn summaries? I make it as I play...:smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke:
 
Hehe, things seem to be in a decent position now anyway.

I make map notes as I play, alt-tab to Notepad. First survey the situation and the "intro" notes are as much notes to myself and goal setting as story.

The turn order is arbitrary (alphabetical actually, after the starters), so at/near 24 hrs if Warstrike hasn't posted the save or got it, hop in (if you have time) and switch positions. Hopefully he's still following the thread and knows he's up :D

Soon the first round we'll be up and switching to an open format - right before doing that we'll get quick consensus on wars, wonders, where are we going. It will still be up to the individual kings to decide of course, but some general idea of direction seems appropriate.

Charis
 
I just DLed the file to see what's what... :eek:
 
I think. I'll either be able to play tonight or post by 7pm eastern that I'm out, depending on the wife situation. Went out last night to play Magic, so my bargaining position is not good. :cry: :whipped: If anyone has a problem with this, let me know and I'll just bow out and save my brownie points up for the Romans.:rolleyes:
 
> I'll either be able to play tonight or post by 7pm eastern that
> I'm out, depending on the wife situation. Went out last night to
> play Magic, so my bargaining position is not good.

Hehe, been there... That's fine (especially given the 'eep' on xrang's face on seeing what is up). He can check back after 7 and will only snag it after you post either way.

Good luck, and glad no one got lost in the game-start shuffle
Charis
 
I write my summaries from memory. (You can do that when you write for a living). Occasionally I flub a detail or two, but only rarely take notes. Most notes I have taken was the exact prices of all the broker deals in RBD7. Many turns, I don't take any notes at all. This also means that my reports are written start to finish with me knowing the final outcome, at least of my turns. (More of the writer in me emerging, have an ending in place and know where you'll be going before you start to write the story or the article.)

- Sirian
 
I take rough notes while I play and then form the story around what occurred during my turn. Like Sirian, I know the outcome when I start. Hopefully it makes for a little better tale than just a cold list of events. When a read a thread for a game I will go back to the ones that have the a blending of story lines, and tend to not go back to those with dry reports no matter how interesting the game is.

One nice thing about this game is the interaction between turns. I learned more from the discussion between turns on the Cuba game than I did following the game itself. That is what I look to get out of it.
 
I take Paper (gasp!) notes of my turn and then try to write about it, before getting dragged off into sidetracks like the yodelling thing.
 
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