RBD14 SG - Environmentalist Wackos!

[Sirian]

In the wake of our RBD7 Iceolationists victory, Charis and I are ready to take on a tougher, more gruelling challenge than squeezing rum out of a snowball.

GAME CONCEPT: play without fossil fuels, and all the benefits thereof. We are the Environmentalist Wackos, and we're coming to a city near you!

To all who would pollute our Dear Mother Earth with vile chemicals, slimy refining byproducts, and black smoke, we have a message for you: :midfinger Yep, that's right. You shall be punished for your crimes against the Green Mother.


MODIFIED RULES:

* Railroads postponed until Integrated Defense (best I could do, as hacking the game to remove them entirely is beyond what I'm willing to do for a scenerio).
* Our civ (the Chinese) have NO access to any units that require fossil fuels (coal/oil). I have literally removed them as options, so that we don't have to go through the hassles of having them mess up our unit upgrade chains, nor disconnect them from our road network.
* To prevent us from being hopelessly outclassed, I have given our civ access to the English Man-O-War unit (and disabled its Golden Age function - the English won't be in this game).
* Likewise, I have added in two modified nuclear-powered units: the Light Fighter (a standard Fighter that requires Uranium instead of Oil, comes available with Space Flight) and the Nuclear Destroyer (same story, available with Nuclear Power).

This is full extent of the mod, all the changed rules for the scenerio.

In addition to these, the following self-observed restriction will apply: We do not make any use of fossil fuels, including any improvements that would require them: (Coal Plants, building of Railroads). This includes no use of coal plants as placeholders, either! Airports are allowed (our aviation engineers are clever with alternative fuels, though not quite on par with jet fuel users).


Civilization: Chinese
Difficulty Level: Emperor
Map Size: Large
Terrain: Pangaea, 60% water, default climate.
Barbarians: Roaming
Opponents: Babylon, Egypt, France, Germany, Rome, Russia, Zululand
Victory Conditions: Conquest


Outlook: none of our restrictions come into play until the industrial age, so the early game will play like any standard game with similar parameters. In the Industrial age, we will be stuck with Man-o-War ships while our opponents get ironclads, and it gets harder from there.

We could have left the AI's to build rails, but then it would still be too easy to take over all their railed territories with the usual tactics, so I deemed it best for what we want in this variant for nobody to get access to rails -- at least not unless/until they get to the very end of the tech tree, which is the farthest I could postpone the option. For us, though, not even then. No rail building, ever.

Lack of railroads will mean lower-than-usual levels of food and shields, and some terrain will have much less potential (deserts can't get to two food, for instance, and grasslands won't be the rich shield bounty they normally offer). This part will be true for all, though, so it's just a matter of handling it differently. More importantly, our military strategy cannot rely on massing our forces via rail transport anywhere we like on each turn. We will have to use bona fide task forces, and not be able to leave our hinterlands lightly defended. This should play the the advantage of the AI's, who are generally semi-competent at ancient warfare but hopelessly outclassed in rail tactics.

To further hinder us, we will have fewer military tools in our hands, starting with the Industrial age: no tanks ever, no mech inf, fewer/weaker ships and planes. We still have one massive advantage, though: we know how to use artillery.

With nothing alive in the game but conquest, and rather doubting that the AI's can actually come conquer us, the main challenge here will be to finish our world conquest before time runs out. That will be tougher than it sounds, without rails to transfer newly built units to the front! Expect heavy use of airlifting once airports come online!

In addition to our extra units (Man-o-War, Nuclear Destroyer, Light Fighter) we can also build cruise missiles, nuclear subs and Aegis Cruisers when those become available, as they do not require oil.

Being Militaristic and Industrious, this game may bear some resemblance to RBD13. I didn't plan it that way (in fact, I made the mod and played the first turn over a week ago, been sitting around waiting for Charis to say he was ready to try this idea).


ROSTER:

Sirian
Charis

Sorry folks, that's it for this one. I played 40, Charis will play 20, then it's 10 apiece from there on out. This game will function like RBD7: something for us to do when we're on Famine with our other games, so it may sit idle for days at a time. Thus, no time limits on notification/results.

If the game gets to be RBD5ishly slow/involved in the late game, we may drop it back to 5 turns apiece. We'll see. With all other options off the table, and no rails on hand for rapid offensives, I look for this to be the mother of all bloodbaths.


Charis: you'll need to copy Destroyer art folder to Nuclear Destroyer, and Fighter to Light Fighter.


Have You Hugged a Tree Today? :yinyang:


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

I drew up this dot map:

White dots are to the north, the white circle is the gem city location.
Green dots to south, light blue for longer term projects to the east.
Yellow as a low-priority half city to plug the hole.
Up to you which direction to expand in next.


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

4000BC: All is verdant! :yinyang: I decide to move our settler one tile, across the river.

3950BC: Beijing founded. We start a warrior. I start researching Ceremonial Burial.

3750BC: Another warrior started, our first goes westward, exploring.

3550BC: Our second warrior fortifies and I start a settler. Our worker moves onto the plains wheat tile to irrigate it. Our first warrior is following the river and has found some cattle. Our settler will be going westward.

3100BC: Settler produced. I send our second warrior eastward (now that the city is back down to size 1) and start another warrior.

2950BC: Shanghai founded in range of that cattle, starts a warrior. Worker has mined some tiles around Beijing and is now heading toward the cattle to come irrigate it. Beijing will produce one more settler, then it will be time to start on Pyramids. Shanghai will then have to build all the settlers for a while.

2800BC: Our warrior to the west meets an Egyptian warrior. Cleo wants our firstborn for any deals, I decline. Somewhere in there we researched Ceremonial Burial and I started on Bronze Working. Our second warrior popped a hut and got attacked, barely survived, and promoted to elite.

2710BC: Warriors produced at both cities, both cities up to size 2, start settlers. I decided to send our third warrior southward to explore. Our second warrior is heading northeast up our east coast. He found another goody hut, and got attacked again. He lives, but our luck with the huts is not so good here.

I had to run lux at 10%, then even at 20% for a while, during these years. Running a bit of the farmer's gambit here, with our military all out exploring, and running irrigated wheat/cattle tiles and pumping out early settlers.

2510BC: With the bad luck we've been having and NO UNITS in Beijing at this time, I opt to pass by a goody hut in the south. For now. I turn our third warrior eastward.

2470BC: Beijing produces settler, starts another warrior. We get Warrior Code from a goody hut to our northeast.

2430BC: Having scouted out the location of the Egyptian capital and chasing a settler pair away from a likely site, our first warrior meets a roman warrior. Rome and Egypt are already trading techs and are three techs in front of us!

2350BC: Canton founded on the east coast. Shanghai produces a settler, starts another. Lux back down to 0%, for now. Beijing starts on the Pyramids.

2310BC: There is a large cache of GEMS in the jungle and mountains just north of Beijing! Our southern warrior, in some mountains, is attacked by a roaming barb and is unhurt. I top off our tank on bronze working by purchasing from Rome for pennies, start us researching the Wheel.

2230BC: Our southern warrior disperses the barb camp! 25 gold.

2190BC: Pop another goody hut, our elite warrior is attacked for the third time! Again, he's wounded.

2150BC: Nanking founded on the west coast. Two of our warriors are resting up from battle.


Recommendations: Use Shanghai nonstop for settlers at best food rate while size 1-2, best shield rate at size 3, with whatever lux are required. Beijing is on the Pyramids now, but will need another troop and/or luxuries to prevent riots at size 3! Perhaps one of our northern units should be brought home. Our two new cities should probably produce workers, as our growth curve will start to suffer unless we improve their tiles, connect up more roads, and start thinking about getting luxuries online.

There is a silk to our far east, and an ivory to our far southeast. Ran into nobody at all to our south, no idea if there is anybody down there or not, but as of this moment, southward looks like the likely FP spot, with so much land unclaimed. We need more scouting to the south.

Egypt is on our border to the west and not very far at all, rather like Rome in RBD3, so I imagine you'll want to send our next couple of settlers in that general direction. Sadly, getting our gems online will take a little while, but at least we are industrious. May need to crank out half a dozen or more workers from our new cities, or... might need troops or even more settlers, your call.


- Sirian

 

[Charis]

This has the potential (a lot of unknown factors yet to see) to be the roughest Civ3 game I've ever played!

> In the wake of our RBD7 Iceolationists victory, Charis and I are ready to take on a tougher, more gruelling challenge than squeezing rum out of a snowball.


I wonder if you picked "hotter than average". I ever never see another tundra tile for the next month I'll be a happy camper

Should be a good game! If I understand correctly, your underlying goal here is where suddenly the arrival of rails don't mean virual assured victory for the player, and it takes away the highly unequal ability of humans and AI to fullly use and benefit from the rail. By making conquest the only option, you don't want to give us an easy escape hatch like diplo or cultural which would have the possibility of throwing this back into a very very normal game. By the very simple rule changes, combined arm forces and excellent strategic planning will be required to win, not required by a variant rule. Excellent, elegant, good job....

Far too early for any plan thought of to be realistic, but... I can't help imagining the following:
- With conquest only, if we don't fight and cower until Steam Power in a normal mindset, it will be REALLY hard to recover, or at least a grueling slugfest that will put rbd5 to shame
- As a militaristic society, if there's any chance we find our selves next to a weak opponent, it would be of *great* benefit to swallow them whole.
- Did you replace the Rider with the Man-o-War as the UU, or supplement us with the latter? If we still have the rider, the "3" move points could be *desisive* in a middle age campaign. The AI still is focused on two squares out and we'll be able to have sorties that take a city by surprise. If not, oh well, and we'll get to try that with Cavalry instead.
- The *TOP* strategy I can think of is coal and oil DENIAL. If we can get ourselves in a position where we control all/most of the coal and iron over the map, or make it a prime aim to get to such a situation, then it does NOT have to get "progressively worse after that". Oddly, I say this purely from a strategic point of view, but to the Environmentalist, what better way to save the environment than to park on, and leave in disuse, our wonderful fossil fuel reserves!? Taking control of the resources like that will NOT be easy, especially on emperor (and that might be a gross understatement, not sure). If/when accomplished though, you press the denial aspect to find some advantage you can actually build on, and next target rubber, then uranium.

Is this view of things correct? It's a nice job of 'spin' that will add to enjoyment of the game to think we as environmentalists are somehow doing the earth a good thing, but I can plainly smell those functional symmetric roots now! It's elegant 'FS' that addresses resolving a major AI flaw. The fact that it leads to non-use of coal and oil, fossil fuels, is a nice side benefit. I point this out just to make sure I'm reading it correct, not to try to change anything. Cuz the wacko part of my brain must internally shift the label I apply to "Militant Conservationists" who are dead set against the use of fossil fuel, and have no other real agenda with regard to the enviroment or nuclear issues. Because if I think Enviromentalist Wackos, I'm going to get us in jeopardy, cuz then I start feeling an intense need to build recycling centers and public transportation and must have the hoover dam or solar plants, and start singing no-nuke, save-the-environment songs, and go to any length to avoid global warming, etc etc. I would also flip out at the thought of chopping down a whole forest just to "snag 10 shields", and I would probably plan forest in all sorts of places it has no place being! So if these ideas are weed, , I just want to know up front so I can avoid building up a wrong caricature here!

> Charis: you'll need to copy Destroyer art folder to Nuclear Destroyer, and Fighter to Light Fighter.

You likely know this, but you can make it with just one file copy and one search/replace. Make Nuclear Destroyer folder, and copy over the Destroyer.ini, renaming it "Nuclear Destroyer.ini". Open the file and global replace to have the art links all point back to the original destroyer, ie "..\Destroyer\IndividualFileName.flc"
I did this for the "Minoan Bull" when I was testing things, and I think it's what CopyTool did as well. Unless your hard drive is jam packed, the copy/paste and rename ini is probaly easier though.

As I feared, I think tonight will find me "up" in 4-5 games, so I may need a few days to clear the backlog 8-\ I'll jettison as much sleep as able, but I have a "Mrs" too and Zed can tell you that you can't walk too close to the edge. So don't take a delay as anything... I'm looking forward to seeing how this one plays out.

Charis

 

[Sirian]

- With conquest only, if we don't fight and cower until Steam Power in a normal mindset, it will be REALLY hard to recover, or at least a grueling slugfest that will put rbd5 to shame

Our best advantage still lies post-industrial. Factories, artillery and the airlift option are still three key turning points the AI just can't manage that well. They lack for sense to get the most out of their FP, and they place more emphasis on lots of units than lots of production, so like the USA vs Japan in WWII, a major aspect of victory is beating down their stockpile of troops, then pushing on to victory with reinforcements they simply can't muster.

Ancient warfare seems unlikely, we'll do better long term to do precisely what you are thinking we shouldn't do. At what point we slow our expansion may be out of our control. This isn't going to be like Monarch. Yes, the riders still have 3 movement, and yes if we haven't already sparked it with wonders, we can get a golden age there... and make even more riders. But each rider is also 70 shields, and nine of them could be SunTzu or Leo or Sistine or... you get the idea. With so much vital infrastructure coming available in that time slot, it could ultimately be the weediest thing we could do to stop there to fight a war. Or maybe not, we'll have to play it by ear. Egypt is our only close neighbor that we know of, Rome is a bit farther away, though how much I don't know. Haven't met anybody else yet. We're going to have to play it more by ear. First to see which ancient wonders we get, then to figure out what our options are as we learn more.

I plan for our FP to be handled RBD3 style, not RBD5, so our long term "total warmonger" governmental plan should be Monarchy, not Communism, with all 1/1 hopeless cities to be left with temple and walls, coastal fort and any vital strategic buildings for their location: bare minimum, no unnecessary maintenance costs, and fiscal restraint with colonial spending.

One thing to keep in mind: despite their free starting units (two workers and several military) and their 20% discount on ALL production and research, they are just not that smart about land management and especially corruption management. So time is always on our side, generally speaking. The further it goes, the more that a wise human player can make up ground or pull ahead with more efficient settlement plans, worker use, tile management, delegation of duties to those cities best able to do a certain thing well, and so on.

Don't let the SMALLER advantage in the post-midieval era get confused with the idea of disadvantage. If we push some war sooner, it might be worth it, but let's wait and see.

- As a militaristic society, if there's any chance we find our selves next to a weak opponent, it would be of *great* benefit to swallow them whole.

On Emperor, pangaea, with tons of land? A weak opponent?

- Did you replace the Rider with the Man-o-War as the UU, or supplement us with the latter?

The rider IS the UU. The others are surplus units but cannot trigger a GA.

If we still have the rider, the "3" move points could be *desisive* in a middle age campaign.

For taking a couple of cities, then ending the war after a short period and consolidating our gain, perhaps. But it would simply cost us too much long term (IMO) to stop wholesale to make war, unless we find ourselves being squeezed with no more room to expand peacefully. We'll just have to wait and see. This is one of those games where we'll have to look all the way down the road to 2050 and ask the question, "How will this plan affect our growth curve in terms of total ability to prosecute war across the entire game?" Uh... I urge you to think long term.

- The *TOP* strategy I can think of is coal and oil DENIAL.

Coal won't matter. They don't build coal plants anyway, and though we'll be particularly bothered by stacks and stacks of 'clads wiping out our shoreline irrigations on one shot, it won't be to the point at which we bend our war effort to deny them that. Oil... is another story, as is rubber. Actually, Rubber might be the key ingredient, since it is needed for ALL tanks and all infantry better than rifles. If they build lots of bombers, etc, that's bad, too. Again, play by ear.

Because if I think Enviromentalist Wackos, I'm going to get us in jeopardy, cuz then I start feeling an intense need to build recycling centers and public transportation and must have the hoover dam or solar plants, and start singing no-nuke, save-the-environment songs, and go to any length to avoid global warming, etc etc.

Have at it. Seriously, this is one instance when I've planned for you to be able to cut loose. Without rails, there's none of that "central stack of workers dispatched instantly to clean all pollution" thing going on. Pollution is going to be a PROBLEM for us, and with no UN or space race to be bothered with, frankly, the best long-term priority for us would be to do exactly the things you mentioned: top priority to mass transit and recycling, Hoover Dam (and failing that? Heh, yeah right) solar plants.

You can get off the no-nuke bandwagon right now, though. That's not part of the plan, we're specifically set to use all alternatives to fossil fuels, including nuclear. We won't likely use nuclear weapons, but we'll be heavily using nuclear power -- in our ships, planes, and yes indeed, our power plants. Even with Hoover, have you SEEN the production boost of a nuclear plant?? With no rails, that's yet one more way for us to (carefully) boost our own production at key sites.

I would also flip out at the thought of chopping down a whole forest just to "snag 10 shields", and I would probably plan forest in all sorts of places it has no place being!

Actually, you can have this role-playing through characterization, stopping short of caricature. (Or would that spoil it for you? ). We're going to WANT a lot of forests. No rails = no mine boosts, so a forest is better than a mined tile because it can't be pillaged and is more defensive for slowing invaders, AND it protects against global warming (the forest is killed, not the underlying terrain). We could plant forests in every plains tile where we would normally dig mines, and even in some nonbonus grassland to give cities some options for high-shield configurations.

Let's stop short of "can't chop a tree", though. Even wacko environmentalists recognize that new trees can be planted. If you want to designate a COUPLE of "old growth" forests we never chop down, then OK, but keep it reasonable. Spotted Owls need their natural habitat, blah blah blah, etc etc.

All I ask is that you make the wise strategic choice. Should be room for that to come first and still not hamper your immersion unless you require some element of weediness by design. Well... don't go that far here. Well... OK maybe at ONE or TWO outlying cities, ala Cod Piece.


- Sirian

 

[Carbon_Copy]

Originally posted by Sirian

have you SEEN the production boost of a nuclear plant?? With no rails, that's yet one more way for us to (carefully) boost our own production at key sites.

If Charis hasn't, I can refer him to my final saves from RBD3...I built some nuke plants in New York and Seattle (I think) before I put Japan out of its misery. With the Nuke plant in place, New York (all grasslands), was tipping the scales at slightly over 100 shields/turn, IIRC, outproducing Washington at least and probably Boston, too (which were almost all hills and flood plains but had no nuke plant).

 

[Charis]

2150 BC (0) - Lush, lush, lush!!! The Green One was handed the reigns
of power (took power is too harsh a phrase for a society this peaceful!)
and surveyed his beautiful lands. His heart virtually wept over the
wonders of this creation. He vowed to be a good and faithful steward
of this great green earth. He was also so very pleased to have a kind
and peace-loving neighbor, Cleopatra of the Egyptians.

Alas, he could tell already, from the nasty snarl his ambassador got
from one called "Caesar", that this man was not a lover of the planet.

Beijing itself was in a veritable garden spot. Surrounded by a life-
giving jungle that housed many unique and precious species, there were
also beautious gems that displayed in a powerful way, even more of the
'natural' beauty around him.

When he finished weeping, he looked over the plans for the Pyramids
and thought them very solid. He also liked the wisdom of protecting
our borders against barbarians. One MINOR adjustment did he make.
It was better stewardship to train veteran protectors than to skimp
on training, so he ordered barracks first in Canton before a spearman.

Our scientist to the North is recalled, there's just too much scouting
and comforting of the people needed.

2110 BC (1) - The air is so fresh and pure... it is good to be King!

1950 BC (5) - Settler up, where to... The white dot above Shanghai
happens to be on a river, nice. The gems are attractive early option,
but... snagging land away from Egypt is also key. If only...
if only I had a SIGN, telling where to settle... OMG Look!!

[ see next post for this divine sign ]

Tough call, but I do think I might try backfill REX, given our
relatively quiet neighbor. Hope is that they get hemmed in like Rome
in rbd3 or choose unwisely and go the way of Egypt in rbd2
(Ok, wait a minute, time out. Charis, readjust your thoughts pal!
It's emperor, it's pangaea, and we're in the middle. Egypt could in
fact roll us over with chariots or make us so weak that Rome finishes
us. There's no WAY we can take on their legionaries. Repeat slowly...
our advantage comes Later! Be patient)

There is a spot west which is 10 squares from capitol, about the most
distant you can get before getting hammered by corruption, which is
coastal, with wheat, and lots of mined-grasslands. Two problems: first
is overlap with Nanking, and second is that it may be horribly offaxis
with respect to our palace-FP "oval", assuming the latter is either down
South or up North. E-W is very unlikely unless there is some steallar
hill terrain in the black fog. In the absense of good data on South
or that spot to West, I revert to a very solid "known" spot,
Jungle-River white dot, and gems after that unless a super spot shows up.

1870 BC (7) - The town of "Luscious Banks" is founded along crystal clear
waters in an effervescent jungle...

1830 BC (8) - We meet a lovely and holy woman from the nation of... France!!
Oh joy!!! Our goals of being rigtheous stewards of the earth are shared
by other nations! We must make a strong ally of this woman. I give her 25
gold along with Ceremonial Burial for the impressive knowledge of "Alphabet".


1750 BC (10) - Wheel discovered what next? Literature as a nice fallback if
Pyramids fails sounds good. No horses visible yet for us. Only source is
way up North near Rome.

1625 BC (15) - Hmmm, flood plains wheat and cattle spot just below Shanghai.
That'll work! Get a second settler crank going.

1575 BC (17) - Egyptians start the pyramids (not this time Cleo!)

1550 BC (18) - Horses seen, right under a barb camp! Goody hut seen deep south.

1525 BC (19) - The French come out of nowhere and defeat the horse camp.
They also start the Pyramids. Our UU is horse based. We better get to them
quickly! Mysticism from the goodie hut.

Saw the horses just in time. The settler is on the Green dot spot, and would
have settled there. Now he's about 5 steps away from founded next to horses.
I'm going to pass off one turn early to let you make that settling call
(if the Frenchman is a "distant" scout or they're stricking inside-out
settlers, it's safe to settle green dot first, otherwise horse seems best)

Spearman is about to arrive in Beijing and will allow a lux cut.
No build orders are set in stone here, adjust as needed.

Good luck,
Charis the Green

 

[Charis]

And Charis the Green did look out over land as he asked for a sign of where to settle....

 

[Charis]

Ah the ancient era.... the love-hate relationship to feeling this massive overwhelming sense of "Must... do this... must.... do that... arggh... can't do it all". Workers? Yes! Crank 'em! Mil units to keep us OUT of an unproductive war? Yes! Infrastructure? Absolutely! Wonders? Ya ya! Terraform our verdant pastures? Aye!

Keep an eye on when the French scout might get near the Egyptian scout and broker communication just before (like I have to tell you). The south is unexplored, but looks promising from the little we've seen. We can, with the irrigated when square free to use, and with the newly-irrigated second cattle, now start to pop out lots more workers and settlers, and our eastern city is on troop detail (Needs to get to size for 5 shield production to be more efficient though) The 'shape' of things anyway, would go well with an FP down south and a N-S oval keeping things close to the palaces. I just hope it's not pure desert in the fog areas.

I started us toward Literature, in case you thought Great Library was a good target. I think we have a decent chance at it - perhaps topping off writing from Egypt for some gold, (and Lit if they get first) then prebuilding something in Beijing, even if minor.
GL would be great for keeping us in tech parity while building up gold reserve and focusing on infrastructure and FP plans. I think the tech trading will be fast and furious on emperor-pangaea.

In general, the continent-wide ones are particularly good on this map shape. Hoover is one of our must-gets. Future ones are there for humans to take. SunTzu never hurts, but not as key as Sistine or even Leo here. Might Suffrage let us hang on longer in Democracy? I don't see the other Ancient wonders (besides Pyr and GL) as being worth shooting for here. Hanging Gardens shields for example would be better spent on ancient infrastructure and/or settlers or workers (or Heroic Epic even). The Science wonders seem "if opportunity presents itself" but not 'critical'.

Hmmm... we don't really need to build a boat before Nuclear Destroyer, do we? Land-rich, surrounded by three neighbors, why stretch for colonies I'll just overspend at? Later when we see if colonies have resources to deny, we can think of a task force to bring it about.

One other question- thinking of Republic - Democracy and eventual fallback to Monarchy? Or skip republic? If we lose GL I would be more prone to early Monarchy and early democracy, but if Republic were free, it would last us a while. (I'll in advance say that I know these and other questions have a LARGE element of "we'll see" to it, but when it came time to pick a tech I had no sense of what middle-term priorrities were for tech path and wonder, so I went for Lit over Iron Working. I don't treat plans/goals slavishly, but I do like to have a dynamic one in mind at all times. If you want Iron Working, btw, I think France has it)



--- comments on posts:

> S: Even with Hoover, have you SEEN the production boost of a nuclear plant??
> CC: If Charis hasn't, I can refer him to my final saves from RBD3...I built some nuke plants in New York and Seattle

I'll have to look at those, but no, I've not seen a nuclear plant in action. If I did, it would have been for show or not making a difference in outcome (like builders) It truly would become an amazing game if, in the end, our nuclear power backbone was a factor in victory.

> Ancient warfare seems unlikely, we'll do better long term to do precisely what you are thinking we shouldn't do.



I must admit a "Monarchly" view of things. After recent higher diff games (where we have contact with people! ) I think I'll have to agree. I'll have to look for some 'Emperor' tips or strat guides. The only high diff ones I've seen are Deity and totally exploit based. I'll have to review the ancient era of rbd 4 as well.

We know know we're sandwich smack in the middle of THREE neighbors (at least), with France joining Egypt and France in that circle. Thank goodness it's not Germany, Zulu and Persia surrounding us! Still... war with one would likely weaken us badly and we'll have three fronts to worry about.

> I plan for our FP to be handled RBD3 style, not RBD5, so our
> long term "total warmonger" governmental plan should be
> Monarchy, not Communism, with all 1/1 hopeless cities to be
> left with temple and walls, coastal fort and any vital strategic
> buildings for their location: bare minimum, no unnecessary
> maintenance costs, and fiscal restraint with colonial spending.

Fiscal restraint on the colonies??! You might as well ask me to exercise daily and eat sensibly!!! Actually... this game might very well be the one where I get to see what that looks like in practice, because... these words are true. With a lot of war needed, and hence Monarchy gov, our spending and research will be at a premium.

> They don't build coal plants anyway
Hmmm.... because they never have enough workers to manage pollution?!

> Actually, Rubber might be the key ingredient, since it is needed
> for ALL tanks and all infantry better than rifles. If they build lots
> of bombers, etc, that's bad, too.
Ya, as I was thinking about denial rubber seemed even better to deny.


> Have at it. Seriously, this is one instance when I've planned for
> you to be able to cut loose.

Ack foiled!! j/k hmmm... well I'm glad I asked then and got some of these "strats" clarified. Tnx.

> You can get off the no-nuke bandwagon right now, though.
Hehe, given the extra unit design, I knew that
I'll just have to think of it as fusion-based, turning ordinary (well, deuterated) water into clean plentiful power for all. (Actually, there's an aritlce in "Science" this weak claiming a simple acetone acoustic cavitation based fusion set up... or will it be another cold fusion hoax?!)

Question- what about jungles? Objectively, they pretty much need to go. Especially around our cities. Unless... we get to sanitation so fast where there is no more disease from jungles. But the idea of cutting down the Brazillian rainforest... enough to make an environmentalist weep!! Maybe 'cultivating them' into forests and preserving an occasional square outside city limits would work

> All I ask is that you make the wise strategic choice. Should be
> room for that to come first and still not hamper your immersion
> unless you require some element of weediness by design.
Roger I'll limit myself to one or two carefully chosen maneuvers in the form of gambits, but only when they won't hurt.

Charis

 

[Sirian]

Several minor tribes eagerly joined with our earthloving society, bringing with them wondrous gifts of learning! :yinyang:

 

[Charis]

Oh my!!!

That's some extremely nice 'research-via-befriending-barbarians!

Second oh my is....

We're the freakin Crossroads of the Planet!!!

This is most glorious from a characterization point of view, truly. From a strategic point of view, we have the option of expanding down south and being a dividing line, a toll gate. We're a line that runs from sea-to-sea. Interesting... More like France than America in rbd3 pangaea. From a conquest point of view, we can choose our foe to vanquish when the time comes rather than have it dictated by who our one neighbor is. On the down side, we have not just one but many next to us who may think the same. Is there one civ left? If so, ya gotta think it would be to the SW in the dark zone, and we'll have not 3 but 4 adjacent neighbors.

Charis

 

[Sirian]

Inherited Turn: All is well, except in Canton, where the cigars were being passed out by the boxful. Not that there was anything wrong with barracks and vet units, but... that city desperately needs some land tile improvements! I veto and swap back to workers.

Our settler is heading south, either to tame some horses, or more likely to pull a Chicago.

BTW... I played without the benefit of your last post. Got the game and started in before you posted it, ala RBD13. Seems tit for tat was in order.

1500BC: OK, more vetos. Rubber stamped the entire incoming budget, it seems. Going to build temples (and rush them) at Shanghai and Luscious, and Nanking will produce a settler to grab the Sign location, because Egypt is coming our way.

1475BC: Noticed that France did not have contact with the other two civs yet. I trade them mysticism and the wheel for Iron working andabout 50ish gold. No sense pulling a Roman Archer.

1450BC: Wowzers. France has suddenly made contact with Russian and Germany, and obtained a bunch of new techs. I trade them contact with Egypt, contact with Rome, our territory map and about 40 cash, for contact with Russia and Germany.

This drops price on writing to 1 gold, so I buy that, then trade our world map and contact with Rome and Egypt for Mapmaking and Russian territory map. Then I trade our world map to France for theirs and some cash and one tech, then more brokering leads ultimately to us having a complete map, all known techs, and having obtained every last dime from every opponent. (No one would offer gpt).

France is not as close as it seemed, and they are NOT down near those horsies. Rather, they are over to the Southeast, about at the distance of India in RBD3. The South is confirmed as the second heartland, and I shall found the FP city on my turn to get us started toward that invaluable early corruption reduction.

On the down side, as I later saw in your note and must confirm, with six civs in contact this early, tech research will go faster and everyone will stay packed like a tight NASCAR race. Faster means less wonders for us, but nothing we can do about that.

I use our cash to establish embassies with all, and yeah yeah, each of them has just started the Pyramids, too bad for them.

WHOA! Wait a sec. ... RUSSIA! They are set to BEAT US to the Pyramids! Hmm, by just one turn.

OK now I'm going to fuss a little. I came in and noticed on inherited turn that Beijing was on LOW food. Why was that? And how long was it running that way? Good thing I vetoed the weed at Canton and got more workers going. Almost our entire workforce is now beelining to Beijing for a massive upgrade of our best tiles, but if I hadn't built more workers at the start of this turn, we'd have lost this wonder race. Dammit, we're still going to get the Pyramids, but oh boy is this going to be close! NO margin for error left.

1425-1325BC: We pop three goody huts in scattered parts of the world and get three techs! (See screenie above). No one else has these techs, but they are all too broke to pay anything for them either. So they'll just catch up soon I imagine.

Oh by the way, there's Iron in the mountains right at Beijing! Also two more units in "our" lands.

I really wish you hadn't built the barracks at Canton, though. I had in mind to build the Colossus there. Still can -- and still the best site -- and we don't want it in the hands of the AI if we can avoid it. But if we do, that rax is tied up the whole time, and doing nothing for us. Ah well, I didn't spell that one out, just left it on workers so it could be improved sooner rather than later. Well it's STILL not improved after my turn, because our workers were madly, desperately scrambing to upgrade capital lands.

At this point we may also have a higher priority. We need to get a settler down to that red dot by the ivory, before Joanie gets too close it. (Figures that Joanie would be one of our next door neighbors. I think she's in love with me! ). And I think Canton is the most likely spot to produce such a settler, as we'll need to turn Beijing right back around and start on the GL, if we're going to get it.

The one wonder we probably WANT most, yet don't want, is the Great Wall. It would kick off our golden age. Yet the idea of double city defenses and bonus vs barbs for 200 shields appeals to me in this situation. Maybe if we can get to Republic quickly, like right after we research Literature... Maybe. Doubtful, but I can dream right?

Probably much better to kick it off with SunTzu, though, which should be our TOP priority and then use the GA it causes to nab Sistine and Leo, too! More dreaming.

1300BC: A barb horseman charges out of the west and attacks our warrior right next to our settler in the south! Our warrior is reduced to one hp! And there is a barb warrior coming at the same time, now next to our wounded unit! We have another unit in the area, but too far to help soon. Our settler runs for his life! Good thing I had the warrior there, or I would have had to plop the settler down right where he stood to avoid losing him.

1275BC: Our units run, rabbit, run.

1250BC: More running. Our settler is now in place, but I'm going to go overtime by one turn to found the city, resituate Beijing, and make a desperate attempt to fend off the barb warrior.

1225BC: Our warrior in the red attacks the chasing barb warrior... and wins!!! :jump: Bad news, he still didn't promote! The horse, now this unit, and still regular? Bah!

Forbidden Valley founded on the river near some cattle and wheat, amidst a lot of plains (they will ALL have to be irrigated, I think, for lack of any grass), under the shadow of Mount Charis! One day this shall be the site of a most glorious summer retreat for our Protectors.

Rome had 100 cash, maybe from killing barb camps, so I sold them Code of Laws. Everyone had already caught up on the other techs. Things are moving quickly, and unlike on Monarch, we're going to have a hard time pulling ahead. The early FP will be the acceleration point. Since we already have courthouse, we probably want to WWW it (hmm, can we? Maybe not, if nothing with 40 shields is available. Harbor would do it, but this is far inland). If we can't WWW, then we should probably do a temple first, then the courthouse. Getting some lux online would help allow us to do a couple more whippings. Yet I fear those silks may be grabbed by some wandering Joe with a settler pair on a galley. We should make a point to send a settler up there, maybe even before we do the gems.

In fact, we need to beeline for the resources. We need a settler from Canton to get the Ivory red dot, one from somewhere to go for the silks, and still race Egypt for the land on our border. Lots to do! AND we want wonders, more workers, and more units!

I made the Pyramids and the FP our top priorities, though.

Which brings me back to Beijing.

In order for us to get the Pyramids (and by one turn!) you are going to leave the city on max food until it grows one more size, then make sure the new tile in operation is that forest. You will also have to MINE the wheat tile, AFTER the city has grown. So it's max food until it grows, then MAX shields thereafter, and we should just barely win the race. Moscow grew to size 7 on my last turn and I've been watching it very closely. We can win this, but bet your bottom dollar that Oracle is built the following turn in Moscow. That should end the cascade -- just don't sell Literature to anybody!

Then we start on the GL right away and should get that one too. Oh yeah, and you'll have to run 30% luxuries at some point.

Lots to manage, lot of competing priorities. Good luck.


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

The other two civs are either not on this landmass (happens sometimes, even on "pangaea"), or else the land wraps around off the east side of the map. I'd think if those civs were in range, though, we'd have heard from them by now.

The best news is that all the known No-Mans-Land is right on top of us. That means we have tons and tons of room to expand, and wouldn't want any war (if we can avoid it) for a long long time, as we have so much room to expand peacefully. We won't be able to secure it all, but we should get the Lion's share of it, and the rest will all be weak, low-culture colonies easily consumed like the batch south of Russia in RBD3.


- Sirian

 

[Charis]

> Inherited Turn: All is well, except in Canton, where the cigars
> were being passed out by the boxful. Not that there was
> anything wrong with barracks and vet units, but... that city
> desperately needs some land tile improvements! I veto and
> swap back to workers.

I had actually swapped to worker there at the end, then just thought I would put it back and let you switch if you wanted...

> Our settler is heading south, either to tame some horses, or
> more likely to pull a Chicago.
Well, sure can't argue with Chicago!

> BTW... I played without the benefit of your last post. Got the
> game and started in before you posted it, ala RBD13. Seems tit
> for tat was in order.
hehe

> OK, more vetos. Rubber stamped the entire incoming budget, it
> seems. Going to build temples (and rush them) at Shanghai
> and Luscious, and Nanking will produce a settler to grab the
> Sign location, because Egypt is coming our way.

Very good, these got strong consideration, but since it was hand-off time, I passed them on as is.

> France is not as close as it seemed, and they are NOT down
> near those horsies. Rather, they are over to the Southeast,
> about at the distance of India in RBD3. The South is confirmed
> as the second heartland, and I shall found the FP city on my
> turn to get us started toward that invaluable early corruption
> reduction.
Excellent

> WHOA! Wait a sec. ... RUSSIA! They are set to BEAT US to the
> Pyramids! Hmm, by just one turn.


> OK now I'm going to fuss a little.
Puts on the asbestos suit!!! [plasma] (it's good when it's deserved though, as this it

> I came in and noticed on inherited turn that Beijing was on
> LOW food. Why was that? And how long was it running that
> way? Good thing I vetoed the weed at Canton and ...

Hrmm... this is the kind of weed that dulls the senses, not the weed that actively makes bad decisions. I could have sword the city came in with food set low to keep it at size 5, and I don't recall switching anything around... Not sure what led the trouble, it wasn't an active "this food is crazy, let's stop it!"

> I really wish you hadn't built the barracks at Canton, though. I
> had in mind to build the Colossus there. Still can -- and still the
> best site -- and we don't want it in the hands of the AI if we
> can avoid it. But if we do, that rax is tied up the whole time,
> and doing nothing for us. Ah well, I didn't spell that one out,
> just left it on workers so it could be improved sooner rather

Shoot, I wish I had made the post you didn't see BEFORE my turn then when I pretty much said "I don't have a clue of a specific direction, so let's try this out..." Based in part on your hand-over instructions of:

> May need to crank out half a dozen or more workers from our new cities, or... might need troops or even more settlers, your call.

With Canton about to put out a non-vet spear, and us short on military, it really did make good sense at the time. Let the OTHER cities focus on workers and settlers and let this guy crank troops. Also, if war DID break out all of a sudden, Canton was our 'answer', no RAX and two cities on wonders left us too vulnuerable (imho, atm). If not Canton, where? Other spots are too low shields and too high food atm, and with us as mil, rax had same cost as one spear.

> Probably much better to kick it off with SunTzu, though, which
> should be our TOP priority and then use the GA it causes to nab
> Sistine and Leo, too! More dreaming.
Hehe. That does seem dreamy, but not wildly so. Didn't quite expect things to move THIS fast.

> Forbidden Valley founded on the river near some cattle and
> wheat, amidst a lot of plains (they will ALL have to be irrigated,
> I think, for lack of any grass), under the shadow of Mount
> Charis! One day this shall be the site of a most glorious
> summer retreat for our Protectors.



> The early FP will be the acceleration point. Since we already
> have courthouse, we probably want to WWW it (hmm, can we?
> ... In fact, we need to beeline for the resources. We need a
> settler from Canton to get the Ivory red dot, one from
> somewhere to go for the silks, and still race Egypt for the land
> on our border. Lots to do! AND we want wonders, more
> workers, and more units!

Weee!! This was the "So much to do!" sydrome of which I spake...

> I made the Pyramids and the FP our top priorities, though.
> Which brings me back to Beijing.

Agreed. I'll watch Beijing's progress most carefully next reign.

=)
Charis

 

[Melle]

Another...uh...interesting game from the realms beyond
I would like to join the next (if any) monarch-diff RBD game, if there will be any spots free. Those spots seem to be in high demand, though. Well, if I don't get to play, I'll just enjoy reading about it instead.
Good luck, and leave off those pollution-causing nukes.

 

[Charis]

1225 BC (0) - Green Charis woke up again, and the people decided the time
was ripe for him to spread his weed... er... magic, over the land once more!

He looked over the world map and saw... wow... deja vu of Chicago!! Tis
a glorious and above all... *LUSH* winter vacation home!! We would certainly
have to expand down in this direction! We would also have to work very hard
and harmoniously to complete the Pyramids in Beijing. The people too did
yearn for great and widespread knowledge. Even our own science advisor says
(somehow!) that we're technologically advanced! Yet longer term we dream of
SunTzu's "Art of War against those who would destroy mother earth!"
Our Mil advisor says we're weaker than every city except Russia.

Interesting, unlike almost any other game I've played with these parameters,
we have a LOT more potential land to expand into than the AI. Yet they'll
be busy for quite some time filling in their own areas. They don't "Chicago"
unless it has great resources under it. (Russia and Germany are dirt poor btw)

1175 BC (2) - Beijing to grow at end of turn, so we start (not finish!) to
mine the wheat. Next turn, forest tile worked.

1125 BC (4) - Beijing makeover done, Pyramids due in 9. Hmm, total tech parity
someone ho'd the Code of Laws tech. When I checked, no one could afford.
Settler ready. At 30% lux, it's time to claim those gems!

1100 BC (5) - An island between us and Germany is seen.
1075 BC (6) - Polytheism from a goody hut.
1050 BC (7) - Romans start the Pyramids. Boy are they late
975 BC (10) - Zirconia is founded, to rake in the gems. Workers already
building the road to bring them home.

950 BC (11, evening up the turns) -

OH MY! Now that's a GOODIE Hut! Skilled.. ARMY! I've read about it,
but first time seeing it. Virtually stolen from about 4 steps away from
Alexandria. Yes!!!
With no fighting, no rush to fill it. Be nice if riders could go in that!!

Pyramids due in 2 turns, I think we'll get it (maybe only by one turn over
Moscow -- tnx to your investigation and plan )
I *just* now moved the citizen off the forest and it remains due in 2.
That gives us one more revenue, enough to kick lux back to 20% until
gems online which should beat the city growing.

Actually... that's SUPER! With Pyramids landing, the world cascades to the
Oracle and Moscow should complete within a turn or two, *END* of cascade!!

That increases our chances for Great Library greatly

Good lucky, Green Sirian!
Charis

 

[Charis]

Here's a nice view of the world...

btw, Melle, tnx for the feedback. We'll save you a slot in an
upcoming Monarch diff game. I plan to start one soon, if I have a night with less than 2 SG turns!
(rbd9, lotr and rbd14 tonight)

EDIT -- on settling...

Took a risk on settling with the other city near Egypt. I figured it would avoid us having a "thin strip" on the SW portion of our realm which is a bear to defend. Its borders will stretch full up to the lake. It's also buffer... I don't even care much if that city survives. Tis similar in more ways than one now to Chicago in rbd3, where I think I delayed (or supported a delay) of southern settling to really firm up our North. It worked out perfect, but with much sweat and your Baltimore shuffle
The reward was a penned in Rome and a secure front. Yet if we delayed *any* further on the south we would have lost ground. France is starting to come West. I would suggest a big settling push now focused on the South with priority on what will be the "core" cities around the FP, and asap.

With so much land yet to grab I don't see the AI (not these civs anyway) pulling any shennanigans anytime soon. By the time they think they are ready to, we'll be at chivalry with Riders, possibly a Rider Army At that time we can "adjust borders" by force if needed. For now though, I expect us to be riding the line yet again of being spread out thin and gauging the right time to dive back from REX mode to infrastructure mode. The Pyramids will help a TON with both

Charis

 

[Ozymandous]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Firaxis inserted the wrong .exe file in the latest patch or something and that is why Armies and other units can pop out of goody huts (in random games that is).

Supposedly they put the right file in the patch the next day (a theme with them apparently) and armies can no longer appear from goody huts. Apparently the change of allowing barbarians to build any unit is what allowed this to happen. With the "new" file barb's can only build the same old units gain ala 1.16 and before.

 

[meldor]

I don't have the manual here at work, but IIRC it states that armies can come from huts. I had never heard of one before though. I believe that it also states that you can get a city right on that spot - never seen that happen either. That would be interesting if it was half way across the world!

 

[Sirian]

Wow, been so long this thread has drifted off the front page? :eep:

Dotmap of north lands, 750BC.

Plus, there is a settler below the white dot who is standing on another dot location.

- Sirian


EDIT: What, no :eep: smiley??? There OUGHT TO BE one!