rbd23 - c

We gotta get off this rock. Soon. Ideally, we'd find out what was beyond Bizzy, too, over past what we can see.

As I recall (this is from memory and I'm doing a few games, so it could be wrong), he has a spice source, which we definitely want as a second luxury. But no hurry on that at all, I'm thinking. Use him to decrease research costs/trade techs for a bit. Maybe even introduce him at some point to get a bit more $$$????

Granaries? Definitely! With our food shortage, they're pretty critical. I'd get one in Osaka ASAP and try to get a settler out of there to be timed with the construction of our first ship, so we can cross the water near us and start settling more islands.

I would be willing to go pretty close to completely broke to hurry map-making as much as possible. Settling islands is almost always easier than capturing them.

Arathorn
 
Preturn.
I notice some barbarians in the Southern parts of the Mountains. Are they spared for Training? Or Have they not been dealt with yet?

Anyway, I notice that Frankfurt are not growing. Must be newly taken I guess. I check the city out and try to set the entertainer as citizen working on the water... and guess what. The Citizen aint unhappy, it's now a content Japanese citizen. Great, the city will grow in 20 turns (needs a harbor.)

I unfortified the units in the Jungle. And don't fortify units in the Jungle, they can't die of Disease.

975 BC (1)
The barbarians were killed, and we collect 25 Gold.

950 BC (2)
The road to the Iron is completed.

925 BC (3)
Nothing Special.

900 BC (4)
The Germans Initiate the construction of the Oracle.

825 BC (7)
Our German Slave Workers finish a Mine in the Desert near Kyoto. Kyoto is now a 6 Size city with 10 Pro... or so I thought... Ha! The extra shield went strait to Waste. Ok then, Well we can mine the grassland to, then we will probably get 10 Shields...

800 BC (8)
Map Making in two turns, no Idea to research and loosing money anymore, so I lower the research speed from 100% to 70% (I lost 5 gold per turn some turns, but it was worth it)

775 BC (9)
Research lowered once again. This time to 50%, and getting Map Making in 1 Turn.

750 BC (10)
We get Map Making and the Great Lighhouse will be complete in 22 Turns (a mine will be complete in 2 Turns, so I hope that number will be lowered a bit).

The peace can now be broken, I have all archers and 2 spearmen ready to attack. But I didn't attack as we should decide that together.

I haven't decided what to research either. You can change to whatever. What should we research towards? Are we ever going to change to Republic?
 
Map-making is great! Switch a city or two over to galleys. And harbors will be nice. But the ships (explorers) are much more important.

Research goal? Ummm.... So hard to say. I'm not even 100% certain what we have. Getting out of despotism would be nice, but getting to the middle ages ASAP has something to recommend it, too. And who knows what the rest of the world has? Very tough call. I have no recommendations for the next leader on that account.

Same goes for research rate. Save up to buy techs? Keep going on our own? Buy from Germany? ????

Wait until Biz completes the Oracle (or cascade) before taking him out? Oracle is very short-lived, though, so it's probably not a biggie either way. The extra cities could be nice, but # of cities corruption is going to get horrible, soon.

We might well want to be Republic for a while, while we get to Chivalry and try to find the other nations. We're religious and one turn of anarchy is barely noticeable. GACK! I feel like I'm tightroping in the dark, here. What's going on in the rest of the world????

We might also try renegotiating peace with Bizzy to see if we can intimidate him into giving us some more stuff for free. Would kinda lock us into another 20 turns of peace, but I don't think that's bad at all -- if we could get enough from him. If not, we might have to go to war again. Those archers have a short shelf-life.

I'm just glad I'm not making the next set of decisions. Could have some big repurcussions.

I guess, on the balance, I would vote for construction/move towards it (if we don't have it) (aqueducts will be neceessary eventually) with a possible detour for Republic first. Also, continued peace with Germany and dedicate our efforts to ships, the Lighthouse and exploring. I would try to have a unit and a settler on the ship when they're sent out. But ... OY! Not an easy set of decisions. I would build ZERO swordsmen from here on out, though.

Zed-F, I believe you're up?

Nice job, Grey -- especially on the Frankfurt catch and such. The 25 gold from the barb camp and speeded research might well be much more important than trying to farm for one more elite unit.

Arathorn
 
Got it.

I will probably head toward Republic first off, until we find out what's going on in the rest of the world. The republic bonus is the most flexible of the bonuses we could get (cash from markets vs beakers from Libraries vs commerce from Republic, and it gives a production boost too and doesn't require building anything.) We don't really need aqueducts until we are close to being done local expansion, since we don't want to take double the food to build settlers.

I'll see if Germany's worth keeping around. They won't really be able to research or trade for anything since they have no cities, thus no cash, and presumably no contact, so it may be better to claim their cities as ours. :) We'll see though.
 
Much of import happened during my tenure, here's the summary...

Military: We demand all of Germany's cities in exchange for continued peace. He won't bite, so we go to war. :lol: 2 turns later, we have captured a worker, taken Leipzig, and killed a German horsie before it can counter-attack. Our forces continue north into the hinterlands of Germany, and eventually auto-raze Hamburg. All told we've killed several German archers and spears in exchange 3 of our own, but most of our remaining ones are now elite; :D unfortunately, no leader emerged. :( Germany's left with 1 pitiful city, Konigsberg, which is at size 1 and has just built an archer so won't be building anything else anytime soon. We have an elite spear next to Konigsberg keeping an eye on it; the rest of our forces are either resting up outside German territory or are moving north to investigate a barb camp which has been sending out horsies recently.

Domestic, Old Japan: Great Lighthouse in Kyoto in 10 turns. Granary whipped in Tokyo, started working on Harbour. Edo built Galley, then whipped Harbour, and is working on Temple. Granary completed in Osaka, started worker since we need more badly! :( We have 3 captured workers building a road through the mountains to connect the North and South of old Japan. After that, the plan is they should head west one square to clear the forest, replace it with a mine, and build a road to connect up the silk there for trade. This will allow Osaka to have 6 grassland squares it can work without borrowing any from Tokyo, speeding growth there. We also need to add a mine near Kyoto on the road from Osaka to use after the wonder is done and Kyoto builds a settler/worker.

Domestic, New Japan (former Germany): Berlin building Granary at normal production rate, 3 shields/turn after corruption. Plan is to wait for that to complete, then start on courthouse, since it's losing half its production to corruption; not sure if we want to whip that or not. We do NOT have a road from new Japan to old Japan -- the barbs Grey Fox dispersed must have ripped it up. We have a warrior down there on lookout to prevent more camps from forming. Frankfurt is unhappy due to the war with Germany, so is running a tax collector while it works on a Harbour. Leipzig is a canal city, and is also unhappy with war but that will clear up as soon as we get a spice online (in progress). There is exactly one source of fresh water on our whole island, that being a small lake in the middle of the desert(!) near Konigsberg; at least New Japan will eventually benefit from it. We have hit the Forbidden Palace city threshold with the capture of Leipzig; however, there's not really enough land in new Japan to reap full benefit benefit from the FP. We can either start a sub-optimally-placed one early or else wait (potentially a long time) until we conquer someone else's land and build one there.

Diplomacy: Our new Galley from Edo has a spear on board and is exploring. We almost immediately made contact with the Zulus and Aztecs, which are both Polite with us (and, surprisingly enough, peaceful with each other.) We trade territory maps and discover just how screwed up our start is compared with theirs. :vomit: They each are the same size as us, with better lands and better cities, and they haven't had to go to war to get it! They even have a little expansion room left; if we hurry we might grab some but any cities we build on their islands will probably be hopelessly corrupted. We trade our world map and contact with the soon-to-be-extinct Germans (won't help them anyway since Germany doesn't have any tech) for their world maps. I spot Persia's boundaries way in the west, so I start our Galley south around the edge of the Zulu continent to get over there and grab contact.

Research: We started the turn with 75 gold and researching Code of Laws. I speed up research and run at a defecit, eventually shaving 4 or 5 turns off research time. When contact with Zulus and Aztecs was made, I was able to get Literature (in addition to maps as mentioned above) for contact with Germany, and I also saw the AIs had not researched Code of Laws yet. Once Code of Laws finished, it was swapped for Mathematics and Philosophy, bringing us to tech parity. :cool: I started on Republic, but it was going to take 32 turns at 70% science, so I dropped research to 10%. Republic in 39, and our treasury is growing by 13 a turn.

Notes for future leaders: IMPORTANT -- it may turn out that the Great Lighthouse is less useful than we could have hoped for. Every civ we know about so far (i.e. everyone but Russia) can be reached by a coastal trade route. If Russia's also reachable by coast, the only value the Lighthouse will give is that it will let us move faster and potentially find other empty islands the others can't reach. OTOH, I can't see that any of the other wonders will really help us that much either. We could swap to the Great Library but that will just save us last-civ research costs (once we eliminate Germany), which aren't that steep to begin with. We also need another Galley to start exploring North; Kyoto could build that after it builds the wonder and a settler/worker.

Map:

rbd23c-japan-550bc.jpg


Save file:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/rbd23c-japan-550bc.zip
 
We should figure out our Goal now. Is it Conquest?

If it's conquest we need to try and win as fast as we can.

If it's not conquest, we should try and win with style.

So what's our goal?
 
Hi guys, I probably can't play until wednesday night if that's ok. I would be willing to swap turns if wanted. I have a big test tomorrow night.
 
Preferred win -- conquest or domination, ASAP. With that in mind, I would STRONGLY recommend getting a beachhead city (well-defended) on both Aztec and Zulu islands. Even if they're hopelessly corrupt, having that first city across the sea is often very handy. I can't quite tell from the map if they share ONE island. If that's the case, just build on one of 'em. I think an FP in either land (or in the middle of them both) would be ideal.

I guess we should off Germany and try to fill out our U-shaped island. It's not very pretty, but it's home.

I, personally, have absolutely no problem waiting for Wednesday night/Thursday morning for your turns, charliehoke. "Normal" expectation is 24/48, which would be Wednesday anyway. And those are usually flexible when people ask (they're in place more, IMO, for encouraging reasonably quick play and for drops than for anything else).

With that said, if the group consensus is for me to go now and then you to go after me, just this one time, I don't have a problem with that...unless I can't get to it tonight either, which is always a possibility.

Lotsa water archipelago and it's all coastal? Weird. But you're right, it does look like we can reach nearly everybody without the Lighthouse. Colossal Pyramid Library? I dunno what to think. The extra movement could be nice, if we need to reinforce in a hurry. Or it could end up not helping at all.

I think we're doing alright, though.

Arathorn
 
Well, the main parts (possibly all) of Zululand and Azteca are on a single landmass, so we should only need one city if (when) it comes to that.

I'm just not sure how we should proceed from here -- whether we should gear up for another ancient war to save time doing it later and to get somewhere useful to build an FP, or what. Trying to tackle anyone with a seaborne invasion could be problematic right now. We might be able to do it if we ally with one of them against the other, and if we get the Persians in on it as well, thus preventing them from distracting our on-continent ally. It could backfire on us, though, and we might end up with a super-sized AI civ on our hands. Another problem is that New Japan is still quite underdeveloped; basically our only two good cities are Kyoto and Osaka. How likely is it that we'll be able to support a war with just 2 good cities? Or with a per-turn net income in the teens? Perhaps we should wait until we've had a chance to at least get some courthouses and granaries and maybe some aqueducts going. Certainly that would be the safer course, but it would probably put us almost to the Middle Ages before we started building up for the next war, and would leave us still without a suitable FP spot.

It's really hard for me to judge the relative valuation of the Lighthouse versus the Great Library, as well. Obviously we don't want to research anything at more than 10% right now since the AIs can do it much faster. But not only does the Great Library give us techs for free (as opposed to for cheap if we buy them,) but it also ensures that no matter who we're at war with, the moment the tech gets to 2 other civs, it's ours. However, if we play our diplomatic cards right, that advantage should be irrelevant as well. Pyramids might have been good if we had had a bigger continent or our main cities hadn't already built granaries, and the Colossus bonus would just be a drop in the bucket. I guess I'd continue to go with Lighthouse, which might still be useful if Russia is isolated, over the Great Library, which saves us some cash and gives us some insurance but is otherwise useless.

For anyone still thinking we can go for a tech lead to Chivalry, forget it. :) We can't afford research, period. Moreover, our cities don't have anywhere close to the moxie required to be able to build middle ages units, nor can we build up the necessary cash (at least as of right now.)

Looking at the map, my first reaction is, who did we piss off? :) I could accept us having to fight for elbow room if it was decent land we were fighting over, or if the AIs had the same kind of crap land we did. My only consolation is the other teams have to deal with it the same as we do. :p Should we still be going for conquest win? I don't think it will happen quickly at all considering what we've got to work with; it is entirely possible that we might be able to get a better score by drawing the game out. From a game enjoyment perspective, however, I would still prefer a (relatively) early conquest win; it would probably be a lot more challenging, for one thing. I just don't think it's likely to really be all that early, unless we take a second gamble on war and win again. And, the odds are riskier this time that we can pull it off without stunting our own development too much. There are several vital city improvements that will be researched over the next little while, and we can ill afford to delay building them for very long. A limited war to get us a secure FP site might be possible, but still has all the risks of potentially starting something we can't stop; factor in war weariness and soured relations with the target civ to boot, and our course becomes real murky.

Arathorn, I believe you have much more experience with ancient war than I. What are our chances if we try another aggressive gamble soon? Are we pretty much forced into a defensive/builder posture until we have some decent size (>6) cities going?
 
Arathorn, I believe you have much more experience with ancient war than I. What are our chances if we try another aggressive gamble soon? Are we pretty much forced into a defensive/builder posture until we have some decent size (>6) cities going?

Fighting across a sea? Phew! It's TOUGH! I have successfully waged very limited war across a narrow sea a few times, but it's tough. If we can get a beachhead city peacefully, that's gotta be the priority. The first/second city are far and away the hardest. Having a place to unload troops, retreat and heal, etc. can NOT be overestimated.

The plus side of gambling NOW is that we have (or had) a lot of military that was reasonably up-to-date. Once you survive an AI's initial stack of doom (or two), if you have any punch left, you can usually start marching. Supply lines get stretched and equilibrium reached fairly quickly, though.

Who are the foes? Aztecs and/or Zulus? Hmmm...both are really past their PRIME time, as far as UUs go (still a force, mind you, but past the TOP peak). Both make support and supply line protecting hellaciously hard until Industrial Age, though. Overall, I'd rate the Zulus the more dangerous at this point.

On the plus side, the AI will not be able to make any kind of a landing-in-force on our continent. We shouldn't lose any "core" cities if we make the effort.

War now/very soon:
- Best case - take 1/3-1/2 of one of the nations and start our FP there
- Average/good case - have two cities on the far continent and a pissed-off neighbor
- Bad case - no cities on the A/Z island
- Worst case - one of the AI civs swallows the other

If we were way behind on tech and needed a peace treaty to catch up, that'd be one thing. As it is.... Unless we get "Compared to them, our military is large" with at least one (and preferably both) of them, I probably wouldn't risk aggressive action across the seas -- too much can go wrong too fast.

What I *would* do and what I recommend is getting a city on their island as close as possible to our island and start shipping across LOADS of troops -- leave very little on our island once Germany is toast and it's pretty well culture-locked. Build a barracks, harbor, and a temple in that city, in any order -- maybe walls, too. Violate the general creed of "No money for colonies" if necessary to get it in reasonable shape. It'll be a lightning rod of aggression when the war(s) start. It needs to be pretty secure. 100% ideal would be in the middle of their island, but I doubt that's at all possible. Don't start a war to found it, just do it peacefully and beef it up. Culture whole straight west of Osaka that we could fill?????

Then, as soon as chivalry hits, even if we get it later than the AI civs do, upgrade to samurai. They're the best defense until RIFLEMEN and so rock royally. At that point, declare war on whoever's closer with the other's "help". The alliance is critical, as it will drain troops from both sides, which we will need. Because after one is dead, we go after the other -- with very little to no pause. Ideally, somewhere in there, we grab a GL for the FP to make the whole island (or most of it) useful.

This being Monarch and a small map, I think I would vote tentatively for the Colussus in Kyoto. The extra trade is magnified on smaller maps. We maybe CAN research our own stuff a bit -- or at least have more gold to buy things (techs, mainly, I would guess) that we need. I would put GL second for security and the Lighthouse third with all the coastal waters. Navigation/Magnetism will quite probably appear before we have Aztecs, Zulus, AND Persians killed -- all of whom are reachable via coastal waters (as I understand it).

Also, look for weaknesses. Do both AI civs have iron, for instance? If one doesn't that might be enough to kill them -- even now. Or it they do but it's near a border, try to get us into position to cut that off right after the war starts.

For now, I would prioritize as follows (remember, I've not seen the actual map in 30 turns):

1. City on A/Z island.
2. Gold reserve.
3. Meeting people.
4. Units to city on A/Z island.
5. Cover Japan with culture or units.
6. Build ~6 horsemen for later upgrade and get them to A/Z island.
7. Keep worker brigade improving lands -- popping 'em out when cities are max pop.

It's gonna be tough, but speed is still our main ally, I believe. Don't worry about the AI founding more cities -- they'll be hopelessly corrupt for them and will provide extra score by land coverage and pop for us.

Something else to keep in mind is that smaller maps require smaller forces. Seriously, a half-dozen samurai with defenders behind them can probably be nearly our entire invasion spearhead. Fight smart, pick battles, and exploit our superior tactics, and that can be enough.

My not-well-organized $.10,
Arathorn
 
Sounds like we pretty much have to play it safe and wait until we have built up some more. Time for some more JBH&G! The forces we have in Konigsberg's area should be enough to finish it off, so no more military for a while. We can start building some horsies once we've got Kyoto and/or Osaka in good shape.

Lighthouse versus Colossus. I guess that depends on the parts of the map we haven't seen yet, but I think the potential and real gains from the Lighthouse are worth more in the balance. What does the Colossus have going for it? Its benefits are small but predictable, and it can be done in 1 turn rather than 10. On the other hand, here's what the Lighthouse enables:
- We don't know where Russia is, we may need Lighthouse to contact/trade with them. They could be a pet civ we feed an obsolete tech to from time to time in exchange for all the gold they can come up with. :)
- There could be colonizable lands nearby that we don't have to fight for that Lighthouse would let us get to.
- We prevent the AI from getting to those same lands and potentially contacting Russia by restricting them to coastal-only exploration.
- The move bonus from the Lighthouse will help us reinforce our offshore colonies faster.
- It will also let us fog-bust much better, which is worth money in map trades to the AI in and of itself.

If we're quick with settlers and boats, we might be able to claim some of the south of Zululand, i.e. more than one city, for ourselves. It's pretty bleak down there, though; lots of tundra. There's a similar tundra zone north of Azteca. Alternatively, we can found cities aggressively on the east coast of Zululand and Azteca proper before their cultural borders expand and lock up the continent; watch for culture flips, though. That could turn to our advantage because of our cheap temples, and we are the culture leaders right now, but it is closer to their capitals than ours, if only by a few squares. Our galley can easily drop off a spearman to scout south of Swazi and still be pulled back in time for a settler to be built, even if we do decide to swap to Colossus and build a settler at Kyoto. If we want both the Lighthouse and a settler right away, we can swap Osaka from worker to settler and still get one out in short order, followed by a second from Kyoto once it's done the Lighthouse. We could get both settlers over faster if we swapped Kyoto to Colossus, but I'm not (yet) convinced that's worth sacrificing the Lighthouse. It's a close enough call that I'm waffling a bit on that, however.

That would be the course I would take, though. Build a settler at Osaka, and Lighthouse then settler at Kyoto, and go for aggressive colonies on the east coast of Zululand and Azteca proper, use them as forward bases, and hope for culture flips. If we go this route, temples in the new colonies should be the first order of business. In fact, we might want to work on some Libraries at some point just for the culture bonus.

Arathorn, I strongly suggest you download the save file and look at the map, it will give you a much better picture of what's going on, and make your advice all the better. :) Not that it's been bad so far, but you have included some caveats about not having seen the map. So, take a look! :p

EDIT: Some general additions/wording changes based on adding the following dotmap post. Arathorn, based on my post, do you still prefer Colossus over Lighthouse? At this point there's no clear-cut better choice that I can see; it's pretty much a judgement call.
 
Dotmap of eastern Zululand and Azteca. Yellow seems to be the best spot to colonize in Azteca; in Zululand, Red is more aggressive, so more potential for culture flips, but Blue is easier to defend seeing as it's on a hill. We should settle in Azteca first seeing as Aztecs get cheap temples, while Zulus don't.

rbd23c-dotmap1-550bc.jpg
 
Ok, Zed convinced me, I'm all for the Lighthouse. Also, I took a peek at the current map and agree that the spot west of Osaka (yellow dot) is the best to start with.
 
Sorry about the delay in playing. I have read all the posts several times and I'll play tonight after work. Wish me luck!
 
Zed pretty much came to the same conclusions I did, although we still have a slight disagreement on which wonder to build.

I *did* download the game and took a while looking at it last night. My conclusions were (before even seeing Zed's post)....

- build on yellow dot, or maybe one SE of it, just for capital purposes, but probably yellow dot.
- build on blue dot -- I like the defense there and the faster pop growth curve. This makes this city equally distant from Kyoto and Zimbabwe. We might even get flips TO us if we're a bit aggressive on temple building.
- build temples first thing in both cities.

My recommended plan was:

- Change Kyoto to Colussus*, then build settler
- Change Osaka to settler
- Move the galley two SE and one S, wake the spearmen and get him off so that he can explore south of Swazi and then west to fog-bust
- Turn the galley around and move it to get settlers and settle A/Z island ASAP (settler in Kyoto would be done first under my plan, I believe -- I'd even send a troop over with the settler -- would probably require some foresight on getting into position)
- Finish off Germany, of course
- Work on getting Japan all connected by road
- Put a *low* priority third city on A/Z island in the desert NE of Tenochtitlan near either Teot or Calx to encourage flipping

*Justification for Colussus vs. Lighthouse

- Boats now and for a fairly long foreseeable future (gotta get all those archers shipped across, too) have lots of things to do other than explore
- It finishes faster, which means a faster settler which means more certainty of a solid position on A/Z island
- Faster settler also lets Kyoto start growing again. We're desperately food short and getting pop growing in as many cities as possible is therefore much more important
- Still tons of fog to bust even without Lighthouse
- Might very well find Russians without Lighthouse and then it's almost a waste
- Reinforce time with selected city sites is identical for move 3 and move 4 ships (1 turn for blue dot from Edo, 2 turns for yellow dot from anywhere)
- Gold for upgrades is going to be important -- especially if we follow my "build horsemen and upgrade them to samurai" plan, which requires ((70-30)*2) = 80 gold per upgrade, as I figure. Having 500 gold for 6 upgrades would be very nice
- Most wonders are generally overrated (for score) and getting a cheaper one would let us finish and get on to more important duties
- Can trade maps/tech/gold without a sea route and that might be all we want to trade with Russia for some time
- 4-6 (more once we get an aqueduct built -- sometime in the distant future) gold/turn until Flight is quite a large bonus, really -- quite probably more than we'd get for maps/out of having a "pet" civ
- There are tons of colonizable lands we can get to WITHOUT the Lighthouse -- probably more than we can fill before we can cross oceans/seas safely without it
- After considering the Lighthouse side, I'm pretty firmly on the "build the Colussus" side, but I won't be offended if I'm in the minority -- and really, it ultimately is charliehoke's decision (which is nice in a way, as it absolves me of responsibility! :lol: )
- Note: If we go this way, start Kyoto back on high food immediately

Other notes I made:

- A/Z cities are ALL small, we might actually be able to take one of them out, if we were a bit lucky and really pushed the issue as soon as feasible -- maybe 20-30 turns
- Xochicalco would make a nice FP spot
- Boy, they both got WAY better starting positions than we did
- Texcoco should be razed and rebuilt one S as a port city
- Is there a land path from Zululand to Persia? Almost looks like one across the tundra
- The AI will probably continue to expand out into the tundra, giving us lots of cities to take rather than build
- Eventually, we're going to need two more cities on our little island, one SE of Edo and one over NE of Germany to finish the culture lock
- Renaming cities might be extremely nice, so I'll have a clue what we're talking about because places like Tlatelolco and Tenochtitland and Teotihuacan all look too much alike for me
- I like Aztecs as first enemy because
- Their iron isn't connected yet and might not be for a while
- Gives time for Zimbabwe to finish Pyramids before we capture it
- They generally struck me as just slightly less ready
Of course, this choice may very well not be ours to make.

It was kind of nice to have extra time to examine all of these things. In a way, charliehoke, your delay may have been very beneficial to the overall cause!!! Good luck tonight.

Arathorn
 
Check back again before playing, I don't consider the Lighthouse vs Colossus debate closed until we hear back from Arathorn again. :)

EDIT: How'd you do that!?! I read Charlie's post not 15 seconds ago and your post wasn't there! :)
 
Alright, let's go with the Colossus plan then. If you're convinced that's the better approach, that's good enough for me -- as I said, I'm still a bit waffly on the issue, we'll have to see how things turn out with Russia to find out which would have been better in the final analysis. But, I agree that having those colonies there sooner (and hence temples built there sooner) could make a big difference.

We really only need 1 or 2 galleys to act as a shuttle service. We definately want to have a couple more out there fog-busting, Lighthouse or no. For sure we want contact with the Persians, and we definately want to explore all our own coastline to eliminate barb boats and see if we can spot any sign of the Russkies. (Shuttle service galley first, then exploring.)
 
If you're convinced that's the better approach, that's good enough for me

Hmm...was it the argument or the arguer that convinced you? I think the former is pretty sound but the latter is so flawed that that judgment could easily be in error! :lol:

Agreed that just one or two ships can play courier for quite a while. I just see a second ship as a ways off, let alone a third. And we may need more couriers if we try for more of the A/Z continent with our own settlers.

But fog-busting is definitely important. And we should try to arrange to do it, but I don't see it as top priority for quite a while. In fact, I would personally build two other cities on our continent before building ships. But I've never had much luck selling maps -- so I'm probably personally biased. (When I've had a map to sell, they've been broke. If they have something to sell, my map's been worthless. Shrug.)

I'm also kinda hoping the unloaded spear can contact the Persians on his own -- via a potential land-bridge. You know, sometime in the next 50 turns or so....

As for wedging my post between your read of charliehoke's and your own post, just lucky timing. If I could've planned it easily, I would, just because, but that's a bit too far on the "hacking in and reading traffic" side for me to actually want to pull off.

Arathorn
 
I was being facetious, I knew it was just a lucky post. :)

And, if it were not a close call in my view, I would not have been quite as easy to convince. So don't worry about whether the argument or the arguer is the more sound... :)

The earlier we start fog-busting and looking for Russia, the more benefit we get out of it. I've often had good luck selling maps, and let's not forget that contact is vital to reducing our tech costs -- I'd rather not have to wait for the Zulus/Aztecs to get it and then buy it off them if we can reasonably get contact first. So, IMO we should get another couple boats out sooner rather than later -- but yes, there are other priorities for the moment; for instance, Kyoto needs a granary after the settler. I'm sure we'll find an opportunity to squeeze a quick boat or two in somewhere, however, for instance while our cities are recovering from building settlers/workers.

Once we've got our 2 cities founded and a decent number of troops ferried over, we can release our current galley for exploration purposes and build a new one for shuttling when we foresee a need for it in the near term. I'd think if we want a 3rd settler over there, we should build another boat for it. There won't be anything left but highly corrupt arctic/antarctic wasteland by then, so we would be better off focussing on building up our own lands and our 2 beachhead cities anyway.

EDIT: noticed your comment about a 3rd city in the desert... well, it wouldn't be terribly productive, we'd have to build a temple with basically 1 pop and it would be stuck at size 1 until after a harbour -- it would net us some cash and culture, but that's about it. Might be worth it at some point, but I don't think we'll even be able to consider it for the next little while; we'll have enough trouble just getting 2 settlers out in the short term, never mind a third! Berlin could build a settler (or worker, we need more of those too) after completing its granary, but following that it needs a courthouse; Tokyo needs one as well.

Konigsberg is the German capital city, if we wait for its borders to expand before we take it, we should be able to keep it. Then we'll just need to found a new Hamurg-equivalent to lock our cultural borders.
 
Ok guys, I've finally got it and I'm playing as we speak. Again I apologize about not being an active participant in the recent discussions, but personal affairs have been too pressing. I'll be more involved from no on!
 
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